How to beat Reva with Mei Feng?

[Tony LiPira]

I don't play TT, but I am asking for a friend (who doesn't do forums): Any advice on how to beat Reva using Mei Feng? He is paired up against Reva in his next league game, but the last time he played against her, she utterly dominated the game, tabling his crew before it could score enough points. I don't know all the details of the game he played. His typical list tends to be:

MeiFeng

+Vapormancy

+Seismic Claws

+Misdirection

Emberling

Kang

+Recalled Training

+Blot the Sky

TT Archers x2

Rail Worker x2

Freikorps Trapper

He makes small changes for scheme pools and opponents, but these are the models and upgrades he favors. Kang keeps the Archers close to him while they whittle down targets, Mei kills little guys and/or tarpits, Trapper flanks, totems and Workers scheme run.

[clockworkspide]

I'd look into bringing Toshiro or some other form of corpse removal to force Reva into melee instead of letting her hang back and take full advantage of Strength of the Fallen.

Come to think of it, outside of Toshiro's upgrade or a Freikorps Specialist, what options are there?

[Tokapondora]

In bringing Toshiro, I'd also bring an Obsidian Oni and the Shadow Emissary. Or at least the Emissary. Besides the -1 Df to burning targets, his free scrap marker drop not only gives Mei extra movement but essentially gives you at least two free Komainus. Toshiro can then turn any leftover corpse markers into 'shigeru and on his way he goes. The Obsidian Oni also really helps when he's doing combatstuff - the constant dropping of scrap combined with Mei's tendency to set stuff on fire and the trigger on her railwalking that lets her kick stuff in the face mean the battleground gets riddled with "threat" stations she can pop onto and kick face from.

[Bengt]

Don't waste Mei attacking stuff, Vent Steam on what Reva can/want to attack. Sure if you have some high  or can spare the stones you can trigger it on the attacks, but concentrate on gimping Ca and Sh. 

[Rathnard]

Funnily enough, I feel like Mei is one of the tougher matchups for Reva. Her Ca attack is much less effective with Vent Steam around, a summoning Toshiro to strip corpses isn't uncommon with her and Mei has the mobility to potentially get where your opponent really doesn't want her - right in Reva's face. 

If I was facing Mei, my basic plan (ie. without considering strats/schemes) would be to keep most her crew safe under the Vent Steam Aura for the first turn or two, then rush forward and get in Reva's face. Reva herself isn't that tough and Mei Feng's a decent tank, so your opponent will be forced to deal with her while the rest of your crew does whatever's needed. 

If I've taken Toshiro I'll look toward summoning Ashigaru off whatever corpses Reva needs most for her attacks. If not, I'll either avoid the corpses with my more vulnerable units and block LoS between Reva and any key corpses by sitting 40-50mm models on them. Reva has ways to hit you without relying on corpse markers, but it's another hoop she needs to jump through to do so, making it harder for her to do exactly what she wants. 

In terms of corpse removal, I'm reluctant to suggest any particular models because most of them are the kinds of models you wouldn't take in a standard Mei crew. There is, however, Mei's Thunderous Smash upgrade for a trigger to remove all corpse, scrap and scheme markers within 3" of her. That could prove really handy, and is even a possible option for a standard Mei crew expecting to face Ressers. Especially if you've taken the otherwise excellent Terracotta Warrior in your crew (and why shouldn't you?).  

[TheJoyInGaming]

Don't take pot shots at Reva. Her healing will be able to make her much more survivable. When you are ready to go after Reva make a concentrated effort as her only protection is from soulstone prevention.

[Clockwork_Fish]

9 hours ago, clockworkspide said:

I'd look into bringing Toshiro or some other form of corpse removal to force Reva into melee instead of letting her hang back and take full advantage of Strength of the Fallen.

Come to think of it, outside of Toshiro's upgrade or a Freikorps Specialist, what options are there?

Sensei Yu with Wandering River Style can move the corpse markers to where they'll do the least harm.  McTavish can vacuum up corpse markers with his zero action.  With his ability to fire into melee he's not a bad pick for Mei Feng in any case.

[InvokeChaos]

So I don't have the answer to how Mei Fang should approach this, but knowledge is power so here's my contribution

I think we need to address the entirety of Reva's kit, because it's got some great tech to it. I also don't really feel that anti-corpse tech is a thing... though it might not be a bad addition if it doesn't detract from your game plan. 

Corpse Markers
Reva likes Maniacal Laugh and the Emissary for Zombie generation. The Emissary pops a zombie a turn by throwing down Blocking terrain in the process to cut off approach vectors. Anna Lovelace is also talked about as a take; she can shoot a zombie into combat. Toshiro while he may be able to convert a few here and there are not going to be able to handle the sheer ability of her list to get out corpse markers. He often may need to soulstone, and it requires a mid card (think a 9) to get off. So it's a massive investment. I would agree Sensei Yu might be a better option, but even then, it's not necessarily ideal. But you can funnel her concentration elsewhere. Remember, Mindless Zombies only count for corpse markers to the friendly minions of the faction that summoned them. And this isn't even touching on things like Shielbearers which can rush in (fasted generally) to grind out, get killed and drop markers before basically popping right back up again.

Mobility and Threat
Reva has a 0 action to place at a corpse marker regardless of LoS. It's only a 5" range, but combined with Shards of Kythera, she can potentially warp behind the markers to block line of sight. She has "Beyond Death" that on a trigger lets her charge out of engagement. She also has "Guises of Death" that lets her arc even while engaged and places a corpse candle after 1st turn initiative as long as it's +8" away from an enemy model. This keeps her threat range up, as well as making her hard to pin down. The one benefit is that if you can force Reva to lose LoS to her corpse markers, she can't arc through them. 

Healing
Reva's primary attack also has a trigger that heals 2 damage with no restriction. That means in addition to SS prevention, she can potentially heal 6 wds per activation. "Beyond Death" also grants her Regen +1, bumping that to 6. If she kills something nearby, like on the charge, she can heal another 1. Combining that with careful use of her Screaming Death, and she can at max heal 10 wds (2 attacks, 3rd attack turns into a charge for 2 more attacks and regen). It's a niche situation as it requires 4 ram triggers and a tome trigger at the proper times, but it shouldn't be discounted that she can be brought to nearly dead and then pump herself back up.

Conclusion
Depending on her upgrades (and I personally feel Guises is an auto-include and Beyond is a strong pick) you CANNOT engage her with a singular model and expect her to die, even if they have really high damage. She has 13 wds. So blitzing with one model isn't the answer, you have to gang up. And trying to lock her down is going to be harder than intended.

Just to throw this out there, here's killing Reva options (not comprehensive just throwing it out for thought and discussion):

1) Nekima (or some other min dam 4) has to hit her three times, with at least one moderate, to drop her in one activation and that's assuming they don't SS prevent. 

2) Three attacks with two severe for like every single one of our beaters in 10T. A lone swordsman can take her out in one activation with a severe and two moderates if he     denies soulstone use on all three attacks.

3) Min dam 3 takes 5 hits at no SS prevention 

 

So what do we do about it?  I'm leaning towards McCabe blitz. Get McCabe in there toot sweet, maybe even pop slow on her, and set our hounds on her? If she's running Anna, that might be harder to do depending on positioning. Dunno, open to suggestions.

Mei Fang Vapormancy mobile gun platform?

 

[Tony LiPira]

So, my friend got in his rematch this afternoon. This is what he brought:
Mei Feng + 6 Pool
 - Vapormancy (1)
 - Thunderous Smash (1)
 - On Wings Of Wind (2)
Emberling (3)
Toshiro The Daimyo (9)
 - Blot The Sky (1)
 - Command The Graves (1)
Samurai (8)
 - Favor Of Jigoku (0)
Thunder Archer (7)
Thunder Archer (7)
Thunder Archer (7)

 

The plan was to use Mei's Vent Steam to protect the gunline while they shoot down Reva's minions, and Toshiro tried to minimize the corpses. The Reva player brought the crew box with Jaakuna and a Rotten Belle. He left Emissary to make it a fairer fight. InvokeChaos was proven completely right. Toshiro could not reliably deal with the volume of corpses, struggling to have high enough cards and the proper suit. The Corpse Candles and Zombies from Maniacal Laugh made Toshiro's efforts ultimately futile. Reva and Vincent's healing and prevention flips allowed them to soak so much damage that the attacks from Mei's crew were meaningless. Reva eventually wiped out Mei's minions and prevented her from scoring any points. After the game, everyone (including our Henchman) came to the consensus that Reva is way overpowered. The Reva player has yet to lose a game with her, with most wins being blowouts.

[Tokapondora]

Don't take this the wrong way, but that seems like a pretty bad list. You have 21 SS on expensive and incredibly squishy minions that need to stick near someone who wants to be near the frontlines to be effective and with that they will die easily and be unable to actually work towards schemes, a fourth 8 SS ranged characten giving you a crew with a grand total of two characters that can actually tie models up, only one of which is a direct threat. You have no constructs or reliable ways to drop scrap to give Mei any mobility, which robs her of her the speed and ability to react/flee/chase which is about half her kit. Archers and Samurai don't kill models, they harass. And with so few finishers, the crew simply lacks any semblance of threat allowing Reva's crew to do whatever they want. And if you take Toshiro, take the Emissary so you can start generating Komainu and with that activations quickly. Also don't forget you can stone for a suit. 

What schemes were available and which did he pick? Also, what crew did the Reva player bring?

Edit - Fairly general list I'd feel would do well against Reva; might change it up a bit depending on the schemes.

Mei Feng (6 SS Cache)
 + Vapormancy (1)
 + Thunderous Smash (1)
 + Misdirection (2)
Shadow Emissary (10)
 + Conflux of Combat (0)
Kang (9)
+ Recalled Training (1)
 + Peaceful Waters (0)
Toshiro (9)
 + Command of the Graves (1)
Obsidian Oni (6) (Or Porkchop, though you'd have to discard Kang's RT)
Low River Monk (4)
Emberling (3)

Turn 1, assuming you have a 9+ in your hand, get a Komainu. Turn 2, do the same. That's 9 activations. Kang, Mei and the Emissary are all fairly dangerous, can't be treated lightly and can with some effort put down just about any model. Toshiro's summons and Mei's Thunderous smash, neither of which you should feel bad suiting for if it's vital to remove especially ill placed markers, are there to clean up the board (and the fact that both use a different suit means if you have some high cards it's essentially a 50/50 shot at being able to clear it).

Meanwhile Mei's venting steam keeps the smaller things near her safe, if at all possible misdirecting towards Komainu because they have this naughty habit of not dropping corpse markers. Try to block LoS to corpses with Toshiro, Emissary, Komainu and Oni, having bigger bases. Occasionally try to set something on fire so the Oni can rain down fire and scrap markers from the heavens onto them, use the Emissary to either take advantage of the burning with his aura to lower defenses or litter the field with scrap Mei can jump off of (use that 3" push to disengage/position the Emissary), and remember that your kick has 3 triggers, each of which helps you against that crew.

And, most importantly, remember your schemes. You're never gonna clean up all scheme markers. What's important is that you wreck the ones near where you want your crew to be and go. Use terrain heavily, as she still needs LoS, so unless your board is two houses and a fence she will have to come out into the open to get access to all the convenient markers. 

[Slapdrone]

Reva player.

Guard the Stash.  Exhaust and Leave your mark.

Reva

-Beyond Death, Blood Mark, Maniacl Laugh

Vincent

-Deal with Death, My little helper

Archie

-Hulking Leap, Doc found a squid

Jaakuna Ubume

-My little helper

Shieldbearer

Necropunk

Canine Remains

Six stones.

We called the game end of turn three.  Six/nil.

Terrain allowed for a bottle neck by one stash marker that Reva, Vincent and Jaakuna were able to take advantage.  Archie reduced the samurai to one wound turn one and exhausted him turns two and three.  Necropunk and canine remains got leave your mark.

[Tokapondora]

12 minutes ago, Slapdrone said:

Reva player... snip.

Would you say there's any mistakes your opponent made? Anything in his list or tactics that really didn't work?

[Slapdrone]

Hmmm...

When we called the game, I think he said he took the same schemes I did.  Aside from Mei herself, I don't see any scheme runners.  He had an opportunity to exhaust Jaakuna before killing her, but decided to remove her than risk the hazardous damage.  He also focused all the archers on Vincent and Reva and might have been better off taking out my scheme runners.

[Tony LiPira]

Some clarification: I wasn't the Mei Feng player, that was my friend Bill, who's not on the forums (I keep telling him it would help to look). My recommendations, based on what I read here, were that he should take Toshiro, some constructs, and play to the schemes. I didn't watch the game because I had my own match to play, which was why I got some details wrong. To be honest, it seems to me that Bill got at least a little psyched out by Reva, because some of the players in our group are convinced that book four is "breaking the game". I'm skeptical of that view and would rather reserve judgement until I get table time with and against the new stuff. Reva is most likely a puzzle that my meta has yet to solve.

[TheJoyInGaming]

Reva is very powerful. I joined rezzers because of her and use her almost exclusively and right now she is banned because i've never lost a match with her. Here's some thoughts in case it helps:

Using Maniacal Laugh greatly mitigates any troubles that i may have with my opponents messing with my corpse markers. With Shieldbearers and Mwahahaha there will be plenty of corpse markers to abuse and unless you contribute a dedicated beater to the Shieldbearers they'll just abuse fast and tie up your models as they are very durable. Because of the abundance of corpse markers/ mindless zombies and the possibility of Beyond Death, Reva will be able to hit almost anything she wants to, anytime she wants to. Combine that with Vincent and his repeating/scaling crossbow, not to mention his 0, and that leads to alot of damage.

Your meta will want to focus Reva early, or Vincent if you can't reach her or he is deployed poorly. Use pushes or movement shenanigans to get into position against Vincent because of his push trigger on def and wp and he may be taking My Little Helper to be a pain. Once you start going after Reva you need to commit fully. She can restabilize very easily with all of her healing. I've been dropped to 1 or 2 wounds and have healed 8+ wounds very easily in one activation. I don't mind stoning for the trigger as usually i only have to stone once or twice for it and my Shieldbearers will recover those for me with Another Purpose. 

If the Reva player has not used it beware of a Guises of Death Alpha Strike. They will usually deploy a Candle as close as possible and walk it to their desired target and have it kill itself to drop a corpse with 3". Vincent with MLH will use it to try and debuff the target and take pot shots against them. Lastly Reva will activate and reign death upon everything in range. This isn't even including and Killjoy and Bete Noire abuse with the Candle killing itself. The best way to protect yourself against this tactic is to obviously walk away from the candle to be out of range, or, if you win initiative, kill the candle before it can activate so the Reva player cannot cycle a card and the corpse marker dropped will not be in as advantageous a position as it could be.

Hope this helps any! 

 

[InvokeChaos]

After looking at Bill's list, I have to agree: I love my Thunder Archers, but running three with a samurai there isn't the kind of gun platform I would use. There's no melee potential, and with no snipers, you can't put the pressure down field. 

I've looked at a list that runs fuhatsu with his melee upgrade, two archers and two snipers. Just for the additional melee presence to tie up a front line push, with archers being able to shoot into engagement. 

But unless you have a middle field scheme pool, it just doesn't have the mobility. That's the kind of thing you take with show of force, search the ruins on guard the stash.

Back to Reva,

I'm not ready to wave the OP banner anytime soon. On any of the book four stuff. It's absolutely not breaking anything to my (limited) view. Reva is absolutely one of the most powerful masters from the book because she's fairly straightforward: kill things and use their corpses to kill more things.

She's the Rezzer version of Rasputina, Wong and Sonnia, without the blasts and a bit more flexibility.

You absolutely have to respect her healing and threat range. I honestly just think that Mei Fang isn't a solid matchup. Yeah, she likes the scrap over corpse in her crew, but Reva doesn't need your crew to generate corpses. Mei Fang is a minion hunter and kind of a tank... kind of. She's the model that you toss misdirection on and blitz into your opponents  back field (or maybe their front lines) and tie up a ton of models while doling out damage. But she doesn't deal ENOUGH damage to melt through things.

If I'm going to try to go for an assassination on Reva turn one (which I don't really think is a viable for us at the moment) it's going to be either by sending a fast Yasunori at her with RT, or with a Betty bomb.

If you run Bettari with Yu, and have a solid control hand, Bettari is a VERY severe threat. Flay is a nightmare for Reva. She can't stone you to negatives, her Df is only 5 to Betty's 6, and with fast you can smack her 3 times... potentially 4 if you are running in Asami's crew. If you assume three prevention flips averaging to 5 wds prevented, three severe's still kill her. Resource intensive? Absolutely. But could be worth it to remove such a potent piece from the table. 

I look at Reva like a Lynch: you have to assume they are going to melt a model off the table each turn with their activation. 

You just need to make sure you keep up with the model count. Something that's typical in rezzers anyways. You often have to out kill Rezzers, thanks to their summoning. Now you have to outkill because of Reva's potential.

Not saying it's easy, but nothing ever is, right?

[InvokeChaos]

moved post.

[Omenbringer]

18 hours ago, Tokapondora said:

Would you say there's any mistakes your opponent made? Anything in his list or tactics that really didn't work?

I was the Henchman on duty and would say his biggest mistake was in taking the third Thunders Archer. This hampered him in terms of Scheme Runners. The other minor mistake was allowing the Samurai to become engaged before it could utilize its gun, which is the primary reason he took it. Slap Drones list was very fast and able to position his forces in a very dominating position turn 1. Once there it was able to tie down a large portion of Bills force with only Vincent, Reva, and Jakuna. The rest was tied down with Archie. This left Reva's crew three unmolested models to accomplish objectives.

17 hours ago, Slapdrone said:

Hmmm...

When we called the game, I think he said he took the same schemes I did.  Aside from Mei herself, I don't see any scheme runners.  He had an opportunity to exhaust Jaakuna before killing her, but decided to remove her than risk the hazardous damage.  He also focused all the archers on Vincent and Reva and might have been better off taking out my scheme runners.

While I agree somewhat, your list (even though it wasn't optimal since you decided to omit the Carrion Emissary) wouldn't have allowed his schemes runners to do much of anything. Reva had fairly commanding control of nearly 2/3 of the board while Archie and your other two scheme runners were able to dominate the remainder.

Exhausting Jakuna instead of removing her would have placed a large portion of his crew in danger in exchange for only a single VP.

As for focusing his Archers well there wasn't really anything else he could do, except perhaps try and shoot at Jakuna. Your Scheme runners were on the complete opposite side of his "fire base" and out of range.

I would say Toshiro provided some benefit but not enough to really decisively turn the tide to a neutral game. How many of his summons did Reva just chew through? Additionally, had you decided to attack Toshiro instead of a Thunders Archer he likely wouldn't have been a factor at all after turn 2, which would have also neutered the Archers. Toshiro's summoning can not keep up with Reva's corpse marker generation (which is aided by the fact that most of them are only considered corpse markers for her until they are killed).

While I don't think Reva is unbeatable, it is a very negative experience for people to play against. You really do have to play against the list as opposed to the objectives. As you stated after the game Slap Drone, Mei Feng is a Minion slayer that has to go to them, Reva is a minion slayer that can just sit back. Truthfully though she isn't just a Minion slayer she is well equipped to endanger virtually any model in the game should she choose to focus her might upon them.

[Rurouni Benshin]

For those of you bringing Thunder Archers, remember that they too are susceptible to Mei Feng's "Vent Steam".  Granted it's mitigated considerably from their "Reading the Wind", but if you don't get the chance to Focus, it could work against you. 

That said, I'll simply echo the ideas with Toshiro and Command the Graves.  Using the Corpse Markers to your advantage and creating free models for yourself would be a very valid tactic against Reva.  Reva's healing abilities are substantial, but not unbeatable.  Before targeting her though, I would advise on targeting her support pieces first. 

[#Maxi]

Premises: I am a Reva player (actually just 2 matches since I got her ready and painted to play), I DON'T want to be in any way unpleasant or to seem a know-all, I'm just interested in a constructive discussion about my new beloved master

 

Now, I read that for some of you Reva should be OP, that playing against her is a nightmare experience, that someone had her banned in his gaming club, that she's nearly unbeatable and if you play her you have to leave apart some good hiring choices just to have a fairer game or stuff like these... then I read that the game we're discussing here had the TT player hiring 3 archers + 1 samurai, that the samurai has been engaged before to shoot for the very first time, that he quite didn't have scheme runners (I don't even know what the schemes pool was, but leave your mark without fast runners and, in general, against Reva seems not to be a good choice ), that he didn't made exhaust VPs even when in condition, that all the archers never focused on rezzer's guy runners - leaving them free to do whatever they would - and so on.. and well, I'm cannot agree.

Just my two cents: reading the posts up here, seems clear that there have been various errors in crew building and in-game decisions, that cannot be simply solved in a "BAN REVA NOW" claim, don't you think?

Moreover:

- just to be clear, if the rez guy hires Emissary + Archie + Vincent it spends 31 + upgrades ss on 3 models, and I honestly don't think it would be a wise choice ;

- Reva surely has a massive damage output at a very long range, but IT'S THE ONLY THING SHE DOES, no other functions may be found for her other than making damage, longe range or mobility/short range if you play her Beyond;

- Vincent 0 actions (that anyway is great and that I find awesome), is range 10" Ca6 wp duel that requires a not-built suit: I mean, it's surely very powerful, but I cannot agree it's not resistable or anyway a no way out, come on!

- Reva's damage, don't forget, is always only on one single model, no blasts. Now, why (as someone said here before), Reva should be OP and Sonnia, Wong, Rasputina etc. are good?

- REVA IS FRAGILE: 13 wounds Df 5 and the only healing chance by a non-built attack trigger (2 wd healed) or if someone is killed in 8" (1 wd healed) doesn't seems to me like an impassable wall .

IMHO Reva is surely a powerful master, surely more than many other rezzer masters (also remember that before book 4 rezzers weren't said to be exacty between the most competitive factions), but honestly I can't see her unbalanced or OP.

I also think it's a matter of her being new-released: we don't know her well, and it's natural we probably couldn't find a good way to counter her: it's only matter of time, then all of these problems will be gone, as with quite every other unbalanced master/model/trick which emerged from time to time

[Paddywhack]

Are you playing with enough terrain as well? That can make Reva ridiculous if you don't have a good amount of terrain. Think Perdita in Guild in an open field. 

Three Thunder Archers though never seems to work. Too expensive and I've almost never seen it make out against a decent opponent. You also Took Toshiro, who I love, but he shines by supporting  minion models, not baby-sitting Archers. 

Killing Reva may not be your best first choice, as she can be hard to take down in one activation. If you have anything that Chain activate though you could try that. Killing Vincent on the other hand is much easier. He has DF trigger, so go for WP if at all possible (not sure who with Mei Fang). And yes he can use SS to prevent, but that will severely deplete their SS pool and his 0 and a lot of Reva's triggers and her 0 all need suits that are not built in. If you take away their SS it can hurt, especially as Reva is often playing on 5 card hand (4 if you can engage Vincent). 

Engaging Vincent early is good too. yes, he can push away, but that costs a 0 and a Card, meaning he can't do Light at the End that turn. Even with MLH you can run someone up to engage just to engage him. 

Do you have anyone with Eat Your Fill? Jorogumo or Oghurai (the new henchman - can you proxy)? Eat your fill is very annoying against the Corpse Candles/mindless Zombies. It really just makes them free heals for your crew. Between that and Mei's upgrade that destroys markers, you can get rid of quite a few corpses. However I personally think trying to stop Reva's corpse counter attack vectors is a trap for most crews as it would be very hard to really get rid of all of them. Asami, Nicodem or other some of the other Summon focused masters might do it. Most crews though simply can't remove corpses easily. 

[Slapdrone]

So this thread just keeps on going.

Plenty of terrain.  At least 50%.  Actually worked against the Mei player because of a bottle neck by one of the stash markers that I filled with corpse candles.  I was able to take out whatever Toshiro summoned pretty much right after it hit the table and have a new corpse marker.  

I've been playing since the M2E beta, mainly Resser Tara and Molly with a lot of luck and Reva is a very different play style for me.  I'm used to throwing models around for interactions and trying to score points as fast as possible, usually avoiding the killy schemes.  Six games in with Reva against what I consider experienced players, all wins by large differentials.  Out of the gate, she does seem much stronger than most of the masters I'm used to playing.  I'm used to playing Swiss Army knives and she's the bastard sword.  She just kills stuff.  But before I say she's OP I'd like to get some games in against her knowing what she can do.  I think it's just a matter of time before some good counters are figured out and players get used to the wave 4 masters and get on with just playing their own game.  My first year of play, Raspi was unbeatable because she would just blow everything up.  The next year it was dreamer with all the summoning that would melt the crew with all the WP duels.  We get used to what an opponent's model does and either try to stay out of it's way or take it out with an appropriate counter.  All the wave 4 masters I've played against so far have been rough, and l hope things will balance out as they become more familiar.

[Clockwork_Fish]

Has anyone thought of trying Willie?  Willie ignores armor with his ranged and melee attacks (good against Shieldbearers), and he can ping blasts off all those low def mindless zombies (especially with Worker's Champion).  He's respectively hard to move for a six soulstone model.

[Omenbringer]

10 hours ago, #Maxi said:

- just to be clear, if the rez guy hires Emissary + Archie + Vincent it spends 31 + upgrades ss on 3 models, and I honestly don't think it would be a wise choice ;

- Reva surely has a massive damage output at a very long range, but IT'S THE ONLY THING SHE DOES, no other functions may be found for her other than making damage, longe range or mobility/short range if you play her Beyond;

- Reva's damage, don't forget, is always only on one single model, no blasts. Now, why (as someone said here before), Reva should be OP and Sonnia, Wong, Rasputina etc. are good?

- REVA IS FRAGILE: 13 wounds Df 5 and the only healing chance by a non-built attack trigger (2 wd healed) or if someone is killed in 8" (1 wd healed) doesn't seems to me like an impassable wall .

I also think it's a matter of her being new-released: we don't know her well, and it's natural we probably couldn't find a good way to counter her: it's only matter of time, then all of these problems will be gone, as with quite every other unbalanced master/model/trick which emerged from time to time

Those three models do an awful lot of work, though the Reva player chose Archie instead of the Carrion Emissary which he usually brings. Honestly the Carrion Emissary is top tier on its own and just really improves Reva by adding both area denial and another free Mindless Zombie (a Corpse Marker that is only usable by friendly models until it is killed). It is also fairly fast.

Massive Damage Out put at long range is a bad thing as it allows her to be everywhere without really having to be placed in danger.

While Reva's damage may only be on a single model she doesn't struggle to kill what she wants. It isn't unreasonable to expect her to kill 2-3 minions or a Henchman in a turn. Again she can do this from a long ways away and has the choice to target the weaker of a models defense or willpower.

I keep reading how fragile Reva is but have to disagree with it. She is only "fragile" (again she really isn't) if you can reach her and there really isn't a reason to position her in danger. She can do her work from farther than most models can honestly threaten her. And also punish any model that tries in close.

While the new crew defense might be valid, keep in mind the Reva player walked the board first game without even really having read the model cards (he was essentially just pushing models around the board and discovering what they did) against a player that is really familiar with Mei Feng.

Again I am not saying Reva is absolutely unbeatable, but then again neither was 1st edition Hamelin (even by Gremlins) or the pre-cuddle Leveticus. What I am suggesting is that a crew that can elicit such a huge NPE perhaps needs to be re-looked at before it hits the general release when correcting things becomes more difficult. I honestly doubt that an easy button will be discovered against Reva or Sandeep that makes them less of a NPE.

As always your experiences may differ and I am in no way devaluing your opinion.

[Paddywhack]

12 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

While Reva's damage may only be on a single model she doesn't struggle to kill what she wants. It isn't unreasonable to expect her to kill 2-3 minions or a Henchman in a turn. Again she can do this from a long ways away and has the choice to target the weaker of a models defense or willpower.

2-3 minions a turn? Those are some good cards you are getting then.  She is a monster, but no different than many other monsters out there right now.  I think after you play against her a bit more you will be more used to her and can counter her. I still find Raspy to be NPE, but I'm not saying she needs to be cuddled. I just don't play against her enough to know best how to manage her schtick. 

I do understand the reaction though as Reva is very straightforward and easy to play. Not something most of our Resurr masters are really. I do still find it odd playing a Resser that doesn't summon and has a lot of Living models. As a Ressur I know how I'd handle her, but not so much as a TT. Not as familiar with all the tricks in that faction (though I think Shenlong would have some good abilities for her).