The core of Ten Thunders

[Tokapondora]

Definitely Shenlong. McCabe can be versatile through having a versatile crew, Shenlong can make whatever crew you happen to have versatile. And overal I feel he fits slightly more schemes than McCabe.

As back-up I'd go for Lynch, simply because he's just so much fun. He's got insane damage output for those kind of games, especially with his constant mulliganning, and is an amazing pick in killy schemes, which I feel both Shen and McCabe just can't measure up to.

[scarlett fever]

McCabe. I love playing Shenlong but McCabe's tricks have the edge and you don't have to play him as quickly in tournaments.

One back-up Master is tough, I can see the sense in Rathnards pick of Yan-Lo but I think I'll go Mei Feng. She can play a solid summoning game with a crew that is hard to get rid of.

Having said this it adds a bunch of models to your core;

McCabe: Hounds, Jorogumo, Dawn Serpent, Austringers (haven't tried Mounted Guards or Queeg yet)

Mei Feng: Koimainu (more than 2), Metal Gamin, Rail Workers

But competitively it can't be denied that Lynch is very powerful, so much card control, so much damage and a 0 cost Henchman/Totem as well as access to Depleted. I just don't enjoy playing him as much.

[Kobayashi]

51 minutes ago, scarlett fever said:

Koimainu (more han 2)

Since I currently painting up my Box (of 2), how much would you suggest?

[AverageBoss]

Getting 3 points on Plant Explosives turn 1 with Shenlong can be pretty fun .

[Yvarre]

I'd generally go for three masters:

McCabe for Headhunter, Reconnoiter, Squatter's Rights, Interference, and Stake a Claim

His crew can be super-mobile for getting to key places first as well as running schemes.  Access to Guild Hounds gives great activation control and scheme running; just watch out for Trappers or other snipers.  He also has a Wk 7 and a conditional Df 7.  Yea, he's just great with all of the tricks he can bring and just gets stupid good with the emissary.

Lynch for Reckoning, Collect the Bounty, and Guard the Stash (can also do Headhunter)

If you want to murder everything quickly, Lynch is the guy in Thunders.  He's a little too squishy for me to be comfortable bringing him for Turf War or Extraction, as 7 or 8 Stones sitting near him to draw models out is muscle not in the center and scheme runners not scheming.  Thus:

Yan Lo for Turf War and Extraction (can also do Headhunter; haven't tried with Recon and Interference as I tend to like an elite crew with Yan, but lightning dance...)

Survivability, movement tricks, and a resurrecting, killy, elite crew? sign me up!

 

Shen Long is also great, but I don't have as much table time with him.  He also adds to the complexity of decision making for me with all those upgrades and conditions.

 

I think overall, Lynch posts the best tournament results for Thunders, having taken some major U.S. and Australian tourneys at one time or another in the past 2 years that I've been following metas.  His synergy with TT Bros is the stuff of Malifaux legends.

[OneLittleThunder]

Interesting, @Yvarre. I'd pick McCabe over Lynch for Collect the Bounty, primarily because Huggy is too easy to kill and, as a Henchman, represents a big chunk of Bounty points (possibly more than once, if you use the Rising Sun upgrade). McCabe's crew is mostly Minions who, with McCabe's help, tend to punch above their weight while still being worth only one BP when they die, so I think he's a better fit for CtB.

Conversely, I'd pick Lynch over McCabe for Headhunter, since I think he's overall better at killing.

Other than that, I think your picks are right on the money.

[Eclipse]

Before all else, I'd like to reply to the first question of the thread: The core of Ten Thunders lies in versatility, mobility (moves, pushes), sustainability (healing, Armor), stacking favorable odds (+++ flips, extra AP) and probably most important of all: Tactical planning. Even when I assign specific roles to my models in TT usually I can switch to another plan and make them do something else if need be - so long as I expect what roles might need filling. Others have spoken about models they have tried and have found to be true to their style, but this is individual. Most important of all would be IMO to remember that all the Masters in the faction can pretty much do well with any other models - we are flexible like this. At the same time, while it might not be obvious at first, there are many, many small and big synergies that pop up in unexpected places. Part of the fun in the faction has been to discover new interactions and little (or not so much) combos.
As for the second question: I would suggest picking up McGabe first only due to his lower learning curve then the other Master that I wanted to, but couldn't honestly suggest first: Shenlong. The reason is that while they both offer speed and incredible support, Shenlong does it more subtle. Playing him is a bit like controlling swirling gusts of wind around the battlefield, to be able to expect where the air currents will pass through and then push or pull as needed. Jacob Lynch is the third Master that is very consistent, he is extremely damaging and rather forgiving for new players, but requires care as he is quite squishy. The latter has had the best results in competitive, but I expect that to change with all the new toys McGabe can play around as well as with players gaining more understanding about him (Lynch came out earliest, after all). If you -do- end up deciding on McGabe you might want to order the Nightmare (read Alternative) edition from GenCon which has a better model selection than the original crew and is utterly kicka$s to boot.
The quickest way to play solid 50 ss would be to pick up two boxes so as to somewhat compliment your models, then add one or two solos if you feel you need some particular piece. However, my suggestion is not to look just at the perceived 'power level' of a Master - look around at all of them, at the themes and the abilities the different crews bring. You might find that, say, Misaki or Mei Feng catch your fancy in the end. Some people feel at a loss about Yan Lo and Brewmaster, while others swear by their names (which is a testament to the skill cap and player affinity, if nothing else). For the best results pick out your own theme and your own bag (or two) of tricks - and welcome to the Syndicate! 

[Yvarre]

Yea, @OneLittleThunder, I can understand your position too, and I do definitely switch depending on the scheme pool. 

I play Endless Darkness Huggy for CtB, bringing a few extra stones to keep him out of tight situations and really being careful with positioning.  He can hold his own clearing out a niche with 4 AP (Yu or Emissary). Reckoning is still nice with Rising Sun, though.  I also tend towards more elite crews on CtB and use Lynch and Yu's mulligans to support surviving and killing.

I like McCabe for Headhunter because of all the pushes, reactivate, Deliver Orders on Austringers, and companion on Guild Hounds.  Getting the heads is just such a breeze, and + attacks with Promises and the saber can make things dead quickly.

[scarlett fever]

10 hours ago, Kobayashi said:

Since I currently painting up my Box (of 2), how much would you suggest?

For a full summoning crew (Mei, Toshiro, Porkchop and/or Emissary. You can use the Emberling as well but it's too card intensive to be effective) I'd suggest at least 4. Even without the full package I've easily summoned 5 in a game.

[InvokeChaos]

Hands down my choice right now is mccabe, yan lo and lynch.  All three do completely different things extremely well.  McCabe makes any minion monstrous and can tank decently, but is more at home with synergy, mobility and shenanigans. Fantastic for schemes and strats that need you to spread out without weaknening your forces.  Yan Lo is just a front line tank that, like pink said, disrupts and loves his elite lists. Anything that wants control wants yan lo.  Lynch is pure deck and hand manipulation that is your kill cannon. He and huggy can evaporate models. Pulled that killy schemes and strat, let's go dismember things.

Shen Long is absolutely a great master, but I think those other three just do some work.  

That being said, I'm a huge misaki fan and she's a go-to pick for me often.  Less 1 dimension then she usually gets pegged as. Mei fang and brewie are fantastic too, but in different ways.

Just get em all and go for it  

[mythicFOX]

Thanks for your thoughts all.  It gives me a really good sense of what to look at and how the faction sees itself.

I've spent some time reading over and evaluation the cards and I'm a bit stumped by Shen Long.  I'm struggling to see the wood for the tress a bit with all his interactions.  Would some of the temple's devotees mind giving me a sense of his key interactions and play style. What does he do?  How do you play him?

[Tokapondora]

Shenlong does eeeverythiiing. He adapts to the situation around him, and thoroughly so. A large part of that will be passing fast and pushes to his crew, which Yu can do in tandem if you have an absolute need for 4-5 people 20" up the board with fast or drag enemies into your crew with slow, he can also heal and remove conditions with amazing efficiency, he hands out focus and defensive as 0 actions in a fun little bubble around him... Basically, he gives your crew options. He amplifies their uses with fast and pushes, he keeps them in tip-top shape, and is a constant looming threat in the shadows of your frontline. In the meantime, he casually builds up burning in case he needs to go in hard-hitting for an explosive finish, has the ability to shut down Soul Stone and 0 action use, can steal enemy's conditions, and turn -'s into +'s. 

The way I use him is generally as a buff/debuff-er, who can lay down a decent punch if he needs to (though I prefer not to). He affects so many areas of play and doesn't even halfass it either, so you can react to how the game plays out and change that flow so drastically you might as well have switched up crews mid-battle. Jack of all trades, dangerously close to mastering them all.

They key thing about him is timing. Knowing exactly when to kick it into another gear, when to be where, what to do with everything in range and when to pull units towards you or send them off...

He's an incredibly fun and rewarding master to use that lets you make use out of just about any model you want to bring with him. 

[Lakshman]

Well, let's give you an example. When playing against Ressurectionist crew I may start with Wandering river style on first turn, use my first (0) action at the beginning of the turn to gain focus and, e.g., poison, use a peasant or two to give me some more focus, push 2-3 units into key positions and give them fast, then change style to fermented river (Yu may now get the wandering river and take care of even more pushes, he might even push Shenlong and give fast to him). Turn 2 I may use free (0) at the beginning to increase 2 conditions, e.g. poison and focus (thinking of the following turns), then in Shenlong's turn I may charge something that has approached. Since I'm playing rezzers, it will likely have Hard to wound, which means that with Fermented river style I'm now on flip for damage, giving me a decent chance of killing it. If I'm now exposed, I will swap my style to Low River and gain Defensive the first time I win a duel against enemy (which is even greater if I have Misdirection on me). Turn 3 I may use Low river to heal any damage I have sustained, or if I'm OK I'll just switch back to Fermented river style or high river style and continue serving as beatstick, or go back to Wandering river style and do some more pushing around/possibly use the free interact action I gain if I'm focused.

[scarlett fever]

That feels like a huge question. Shenlong's greatest advantage is his adaptability, by swapping styles/adding condiitons he has an out for any situation, he's very fluid and fun to play. Argh, so many things he can do.

Example of an opening play might be;

Crew close to Shenlong but Sniper forward slightly, Shenlong starts with Wandering River (always this to start). After initiative is flipped Peasant places a scheme marker thereby summoning a second peasent. First activation slow peasent focuses for a 0 (free focus from Shenlong) and focus flips 'provides for the temple' giving focus to Shenlong. Next Second peasant focuses for 0 moves and gives focus to Shenlong. Low River Monk activates, takes a 0 focus from Shenlong (gaining focus 2 for taking his first focus action) moves and focuses again. Swordsman activates, takes defensive as a 0 from Shenlong, kills peasant(creating corpse marker) and moves up the board. Emissary activates, takes his 0 removing the focus from the Low River and gaining 3 cards, pushes Swordsman and gives him fast then moves forward. Toshiro Activates, summons an Ashigaru from the corpse, removes the scheme marker as a 0 to give focus to the Sniper (and Ashigaru, though not needed) and drops a scheme marker. Shenlong activates, Mighty Gust pushing Ashigaru, drops a focus to take away his slow (by adding fast) and moves the other scheme marker, pushes Emissary and drops a focus to give him fast and pushes the scheme marker even further, takes a 0 to swap to Low River and heals 2 wounds on the Ashigaru. Ashigaru moves twice and takes his 0 'Brace Yari'. Sniper activates, takes a focused shot, takes focus again for 0 (Shenlong) and takes a second focus shot. You now have a crew primed for a turn 2 blitz with fast on Emissary, Swordsman and a stacked hand. The crew is a bit skew and with a few inefficient actions but shows a couple of opening moves. This is away from cards and books so I can't remember the names of all actions.

My first cautions for playing him competitively would be practice a method of putting out and moving around conditions quickly and efficiently and also be ready to talk yourself hoarse explaining your interactions to your opponent. You want to be doing all this quickly.

 

[Wake of Godzilla]

Hi - great feedback above, 100% agree with the comments above. 

10 Thunders do seem to be "the right tool for the job" none of them are perfect for all schemes, more so than other factions, but if you had to pick one then Shenlong would be the go to guy. 

I started with Shenlong this year - to start with he worked well for me as a great force multiplier. He can take any of the minions and providing focused and fast to the crew is great. Wandering River Style was the workhorse for me and then switching to other styles as needed. 

Basics to think about:

Everyone being able to get defensive or focuses when near him for a 0 is awesome. Illuminated going in with focus for a charge is pretty great.

Snipers are even better as you can use a peasant to provide the focus, shoot, focus for 0 and shoot again. Plus if near Yu they go up to Sh 6 - loads of board control.

A beater like Lone Swordsman or Izamu is advised to take out threats to Shenlong, they are great when given some pushes and fast

Try to remember which style is on who and when you will need to move it between Shenlong and Yu – this can be important to  your plans

Don’t be afraid to get Shen or Yu in a fight, the focus that they have can really swing things.

This is a all comers list that I used a few times:

Ten Thunders

50ss Crew

 

Shenlong -- 5ss

 +Words On The River - 1ss

 

Peasant - 2ss

 

Katanaka Sniper - 7ss

 

Sensei Yu - 9ss

 +Promising Disciple - 2ss

 

Ten Thunders Brother - 5ss

 

Ten Thunders Brother - 5ss

 

The Illuminated - 7ss

 

The Lone Swordsman - 8ss

 +Recalled Training - 1ss

 

The brothers can be swapped out for other models depending on the scheme pool.  

Full disclosure - though all of my games at tournaments for the past 3 months have been with Lynch. Shenlong is great but makes my head hurt due to the focus required to play him. Connor McNama has got Shenlong down to a much quicker game than me. If you can get enough practice he is great.

[AverageBoss]

7 minutes ago, Wake of Godzilla said:

Ten Thunders

50ss Crew

Shenlong -- 5ss

 +Words On The River - 1ss

Peasant - 2ss

Katanaka Sniper - 7ss

Sensei Yu - 9ss

 +Promising Disciple - 2ss

Ten Thunders Brother - 5ss

Ten Thunders Brother - 5ss

The Illuminated - 7ss

The Lone Swordsman - 8ss

 +Recalled Training - 1ss

 

 

Remember, if you don't spend 2 SS to start with a Style on Shenlong, you don't have access to any of them during the game. His 0 to switch does not work if you don't have one to drop.

[Nukemouse]

There seems to be a lot of love for Ten Thunders Brothers here. Would it be wrong to say they seem to outclass Torakage and Low River Monks? With the upcoming oni master Tengu look pretty cool, being able to heal Izamu, Yin or whoever needs it. Are Ten Thunders Brothers "must have" even if you have Torakage and Tengu to do schemes with and Illuminated/Yin/Izamu to tarpit with?

[InvokeChaos]

Lots of great stuff so far, here's some of my ramblings:

TL;DR - Shenlong... GOOOOOOOD. Seriously though, don't over diversify, play to his free 0 action as it's just as good as you think it is, and don't be trapped by wandering river or sensei yu. They are situational tools like anything... just extremely good ones.

Diversification is his ally, but everything in moderation.  Trying to do all four styles can be a trap and greatly depends on what your facing.  If I see neverborn, I'm looking to shift into low river for their damage output and crazy conditions. Rezzers I'm looking for fermented style, gremlins get high river style, etc.  The idea is to identify the strategies you are going to want to be using for past turn 1 and start building your conditions for them. A fully loaded fermented river pop can be devastating if timed right.  The 3" reach on high river with misdirection and defensive can make him unstoppable. It's all about identifying the opponent's weakness and gearing him towards that. My initial games I had like 12 conditions on him, all split up so I could pick what I wanted. I've learned that's not the way to play him. Everything in moderation, even diversity.

Shenlong grants an amazing concept to your crew: gives free 0 actions within a bubble. I can't state how amazing this is. We have a number of models with either no 0 action, or situaitonal 0 actions. Being able to just have them pop what they need and move on is fantastic. I think it's oiran that can go defensive 2 for a 0 action + a card.  LRM can go defensive just for a 0 action, which on them is great. Illuminated get a focus for free. Snipers too. Archers get 2 focus for a 0 action, with no competition.  The list goes on.  Tack on the ability to give fast, and suddenly combinations that didn't exist before are absolutely ridiculous.

A focused, fast, in position lone swordsman? Yes, please.

Or how about an illuminated? Everyone talks about their damage potential, but I've gone into detail in another thread why they don't outpace punk zombies (hireable via toshiro) but are situationaly better. Shenlong is one of those situations. If you aren't taking illuminated in lynch, giving brilliance is next to impossible because it prevents charging (costs an AP) and you can't walk into combat afterwards (it has a  so no doing it in melee).

So why not give him to Shen and get a free 0 focus action, a push into position and fast... Now you can take that 1ap action to give out brilliance AND charge, while focused for that ridiculous damage track. That's just monstrous. Illuminated are so much better with Shenlong that I'm starting to think their an auto-include. He helps their heal, gives their ridiculous threat range more angles, enables their damage track of stupidity AND gets them focused to hunt for that sweet sweet severe.

Lastly, let's address the auto-take: Sensei Yu. Try to remember he is NOT an auto-take.  Shen is MORE than capable of doing what he wants to do without him.

Yu is just like adding nitro glycerin to C4.

That being said, Yu is far more than just a Wandering River spam bot. I really REALLY think wandering river is a trap. And I don't always start the game with it. I take it if my crew selection really will benefit. Remember that all our other masters don't hand out pushes and fasts like candy and our minions are still amazing. Usually it's a key model or two that needs a bit of oomph at the right time. So I tailor what I'm taking to my crew, not auto-picking the wandering river. And this ties into the Yu concept: When you auto-pick wandering style, you are making you have wandering style turn 1. That may be EXACTLY what the doctor called for. But then again, maybe not.

I often will start with Low River Style and move into whatever style is effective for me. And it's purely to pass it to Yu turn 1, first 0 action of shen long and then pick up whatever style I need for this matchup (maybe it's wandering river style, maybe its' not). I'll airburst with Yu and get into position and start planning how I'm going to use my healbot. It's amazing how 2-4 wds + condition removal can affect a game. Especially with models like Izamu, Illuminated, Jorogumo, Snipers... all HtK, all massive threats. 

And that's why Shenlong is so incredibly good. Because of all these varied things you can do and all these angles and approaches.

[OneLittleThunder]

7 hours ago, Nukemouse said:

There seems to be a lot of love for Ten Thunders Brothers here. Would it be wrong to say they seem to outclass Torakage and Low River Monks? With the upcoming oni master Tengu look pretty cool, being able to heal Izamu, Yin or whoever needs it. Are Ten Thunders Brothers "must have" even if you have Torakage and Tengu to do schemes with and Illuminated/Yin/Izamu to tarpit with?

In my book, 10 Thunders Brothers are a go-to model because they are extremely versatile and hard to take out. Particularly with Lynch (where his control over Aces is a great boost), their (0) Dance of the Heavens can give them exceptional mobility/escapability, extra durability, the ability to lock down opponents over a huge area, or card draw. They can hunker down in Defensive mode and hold a point against almost any non-caster, or dart across the board and plant scheme markers like a champ. Their ability to protect your own scheme markers within 5" from enemy tampering is also quite valuable (and, as far as I know, unique in the game).

Torakage are slightly faster and slightly better in combat, but they are also rather less durable, and I don't think their extra SS cost is worth it in most cases. Their ability to freely walk out of engagement range is situationally quite useful, and they do good work as scheme runners that can take out most other scheme runners. In most cases, though, I find 10TB to be more flexible as well as cheaper. With Lynch and Lust, they can also set up an impressive chain of card drawing, but I think that's mostly a gimmick.

Low River Monks are a model that some folks swear by, but I've never gotten much out of them. They are cheap, pretty durable, and provide reliable condition removal; however, they cannot do any damage at all. If I was really starved for points, I might take one over a 10TB to hold a point, or swap one out for Chiaki if I need condition removal but need to save the stones. With a Shenlong crew and the Shadow Emissary, they can provide a reliable source for card draws by going Focused and then having the Emissary remove their condition each turn...it's a lot of AP, but 3 extra cards a turn has a lot to recommend it.

Tengu are super-fast (especially in pairs), can help heal, and are good at scheme marker removal if you have the cards to spare. Unfortunately, they are also very fragile, so I haven't been taking them that often. Like you, I'm interested to see what Asami has to offer them. They also get a bit of a boost under Yan Lo thanks to the extra benefits he can offer Spirits.

[Patzer]

Couple of more thoughts. When I need condition removal I usually take Johan. Chiaki is nice, but I like to have as much hitting power as possible most of the time. With all the pushes around Johan is far from slow in TT.  

+to Shadow over Yu. The latter is nice when the pool is marker heavy, but nearly all masters prefer the Emissary over Yu. Only exception being Misaki. 

[Wake of Godzilla]

18 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

Remember, if you don't spend 2 SS to start with a Style on Shenlong, you don't have access to any of them during the game. His 0 to switch does not work if you don't have one to drop.

I don't think he does - the text is 

(0) Monk of Many Styles: Choose a Limited Upgrade with the Restriction of Shenlong. If another friendly model has the chosen Upgrade attached, discard it. This model may discard a Limited Upgrade it has attached to attach the chosen Upgrade.

 

[Adran]

8 minutes ago, Wake of Godzilla said:

I don't think he does - the text is 

(0) Monk of Many Styles: Choose a Limited Upgrade with the Restriction of Shenlong. If another friendly model has the chosen Upgrade attached, discard it. This model may discard a Limited Upgrade it has attached to attach the chosen Upgrade.

 

This model may discard a Limited Upgrade it has attached to attach the chosen Upgrade.

He will only attach a limited upgrade if he discards one. the ability doesn't automatically attach it, only if he discards one. 

[AverageBoss]

6 hours ago, Wake of Godzilla said:

I don't think he does - the text is 

(0) Monk of Many Styles: Choose a Limited Upgrade with the Restriction of Shenlong. If another friendly model has the chosen Upgrade attached, discard it. This model may discard a Limited Upgrade it has attached to attach the chosen Upgrade.

 

 

[ArcticPangolin]

In no particular order, and with my somewhat limited experience with only some of the range of models available:

1. Lust. Until you see her in action you don't necessarily understand how powerful her repositioning antics are. A great candidate for Recalled Training and a fantastic ghostbuster since her attack with intent to injure is a Ca. Killjoy can kindly Kiss his friend from behind too. DON'T FORGET HER MASSIVE AURA.

2. Thunder Brothers. They lack any real synergy with other non-Master models, but are so solid that they can work for anyone. It's primarily their Df and boost when in Defensive that make them so useful for their points, but Protect Our Holdings and their Styles are delicious icing indeed.

3. Izamu. One of the best tarpits with punch in the game. If you have healing in your crew then woe betide enemies who are engaged with him who lack someone way of ignoring Armour or removing him from the game. I do not yet have this model.

4. Wandering River Monk. I haven't yet seen them in action or used them but would consider them premiere scheme runners. Likely my next 10T purchase.

5. Illuminated. Hefty Minions for their cost that need to be concentrated on to be brought down. I do not yet have these guys but look forward to running them with McCabe immensely.

6. Kang. A great option to have when you anticipate Undead or Constructs, but the only reason I'd use him. I do not yet have this model.

7. Dawn Serpent. A bit of filler here but the mythical lizard can be truly remarkable. Wk6 Flying, healing, blasting, Ml & Sh7... it can work in many crews. More reliable in what it does than Ama No Zako.

 

Here's where I cheat a bit...

8. Katanaka Snipers/Samurai/Thunder Archers. These are the ranged options most people think of when you mention shooting in 10T. Everyone knows what Snipers do and are the most straightforward option. Samurai have versatility with their upgrades, but Favour of Jigoku is probably the place to start. Earth makes for a great generalist and target to Misdirect enemy attacks on to and Heaven makes for a great Obey-effect model. Thunder Archers require the most finesse to use judging by people's reported experiences with them, many have found them wanting. I only have Samurai.

9. Chiaki/Monk of Low River. I would probably prefer Chiaki if I had her, but do not, so Low River it is for the moment. However they do make for great filler Minions and can make some surprising plays. You do start to notice the Wk5 Cg- though.

10. Sensei Yu/Shadow Emissary. I have neither but pine for their touch.