S.o.S - The Sow

[Blacks85]

Hi All,

Yesterday I've made my first game with "The sow" and it confirmed me the impressions...is too soft for a 8 SS model (He's got destroyed turn2 by a charge of Mei Feng, no chance to reply back)

Df4 with Wd10 doesn't seem enough to get him close to the action safe and sound...It needs to charge before enemy or it would be destroyed. With a 50 mm base and lot of terrains, it's very easy to block its charge line and charge it back. 

With 1 SS more you can have a much more TOUGH Df5 Wd12 "Eat your fill" Warpig that is also more mobile (charging with 1 AP) and with a better DMG (it's very unlikely that SOW can hit with 5 or more wounds...)...and the sow has Ml 5?!?! why?!?!

Sure the sow can leave 2 piglets back - but if you can't heal them or activate before enemy can attack them - they will surely die having only 1 Wd left.

It has a situational "Scheme marker removal" utility but the Warpig has a push for gremlin which is - surely less situational and impactful.

Usual question....When do you think The sow is a good choice? and how you'd get the most value out of it?

Thanks

[daniello_s]

So after first game you think you can judge the value of the model? Well, well...

To add something to this topic (except my irony) I witnessed The Sow charging (with Shot in the Rear) into enemy crowd. The tally sheet was: 2 minions, one enforcer (was slightly wounded but nothing threatening to his live or at least he thought so before he met The Sow) and one heavily bruised henchman (who died next turn ripped into the pieces by... The Sow). After seeing this I can suspect that once good played, The Sow might be a pure nightmare for opponent.

[Blacks85]

59 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

So after first game you think you can judge the value of the model? Well, well..

Don't hate me! I try to do constructive post! Because i'm trying to find value in the most possible number of models 

I don't doubt that charging, maybe with some  has a devastating damage output, the question is how can you nake him charge before it get shut down

[Dogmantra]

The Sow is great. Firstly I strongly disagree that War Pigs have a better damage output than The Sow. They can still hit vs slightly more extreme flips than The Sow, but as long as she's above 1/2 Wd, she's got s, which roughly equates to +2 Ml. And then The Sow's min damage is 3 compared to 2, and she gets s to damage flips too when above 1/2 Wd, making it much more likely for her to flip Moderate or Severe vs a particular enemy compared to a War Pig.

She doesn't have most of the triggers which is both a blessing and a curse - it means she will always be where you want her to be and you won't ever have your perfect activation cut short by an errant high Tome. A lack of Set'er Off is also reaaaaally nice if you're not going to be playing Som'er/Ulix/Hog Whisperer

Only 4 Df and 10 Wd is unfortunate, but she does have Terrifying 12, which can be much more useful than an extra point of Df, particularly against low Wp or card starved crews, and Smell Fear synergises well.

Because of Smell Fear she has a pretty good synergy with Zoraida, Sammy & Brewie as those guys can hand out some pretty difficult Wp duels, which The Sow can then capitalise on.

(one thought for Zoraida - slap the Armour+2 but s to duels condition on The Sow with a Nurse. She'll be at straight attack flips but armour 2 is probably a stronger defense than straight Df flips... actually Nurse with the Sow in general seems scary - that +Ml damage condition too!)

And while you're unlikely to get off a Birth, the fact you can threaten it makes placing a Scheme marker more of a risk for your opponent.

The summoning piglets on death is kind of just a bonus imo, it's not something to rely on, but despite being on only one wound, those guys have a self healing trigger and 6Df, so if she dies later on in a turn, the piggies can be a real pain for your opponents (it also means if they want to disengage a specific model by killing The Sow they need to do it in at least two separate actions, probably 3 unless they have AoE damage)

 

I generally run her with Ulix, because yeah as you pointed out, while she has a long charge, it can be difficult to get one lined up, so Penelope and Old Major are good for pushing her around, and she can take the Walks while either Ulix or Sammy shoots her in the rear. As daniello_s noted, a shot in the rear Sow is quite a sight to behold if it goes off. Although this post has made me come up with a couple of Zoraida tricks that seem quite fun so I might have to give her a go there.

[Paddywhack]

It looks like she is very similar to the Rogue Necromancy. As long as she is above 1/2 wounds she can be a monster. That  to Attack AND Damage flips can be huge. However, just like the Rogue necromancy, she is a glass cannon. She is easy to hit and will get wounded quickly once attacked. I find with my RN I have to keep him back a turn or two and not throw him at the enemy the very first thing. He has to get the charge off and be above half strength to really shine and the Sow looks the same. It's really hard not to send them up field too soon, especially the RN as he has Stalk. 

That  to Damage flips can make it easy to get a straight flip and then you can cheat to Moderate if it wasn't flipped. 

[Nosilloc]

Warpigs cost soul stones????

[daniello_s]

6 hours ago, Nosilloc said:

Warpigs cost soul stones????

Hahaha! Good one!

[Blacks85]

9 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

The Sow is great. Firstly I strongly disagree that War Pigs have a better damage output than The Sow.

I'm very happy to read it! I will be more than happy to give it a couple more tries.

However, I still can't find a way to make him charge straight away (even with the surely devastating shot in the rear...). Only option that comes to my mind is to out-activate opponent, push him and finally activate as one of the latest model.

Because also move behind a terrain in hard cover, give it defensive  to "shot in the rear later" is not that much helpful with Df4. If you want to kill it, you can keep cards and do it.

It might be interesting with Zoraida...Maybe next time I will try it with her.

Thanks

[Munindk]

Maybe you dont need the Sow to charge straight away?

Since she's a glass cannon you want to pick your targets carefully, if your opponent can retaliate on her she wont last long. Charge late in the turn, on a flank with few enemy models around, with the movement shenanigans as Dogmantra suggested or simply out activate your opponent.

Or maybe you dont need the Sow to charge at all? The mere threat of a Sow charge could dictate where your enemy moves his models.

I think the Sow is easily worth 8SS if used wisely, but if you just charge her in to do some damage you're probably better off with Rooster Riders.

[Blacks85]

1 hour ago, Munindk said:

Maybe you dont need the Sow to charge straight away?

Since she's a glass cannon you want to pick your targets carefully, if your opponent can retaliate on her she wont last long. Charge late in the turn, on a flank with few enemy models around, with the movement shenanigans as Dogmantra suggested or simply out activate your opponent.

Or maybe you dont need the Sow to charge at all? The mere threat of a Sow charge could dictate where your enemy moves his models.

I think the Sow is easily worth 8SS if used wisely, but if you just charge her in to do some damage you're probably better off with Rooster Riders.

Sure thing, but if you don't play it aggressive it's very easy killable by ranged attack.

A katanaka can ~~automatically kill it with shen long and two 11+ cards if in soft cover only (or two katanaka, two trapper)...anything else can hit it seriously with a Focus + Sh action and it doesn't take too much to reduce it below 5 Wd (making it very less effective) or kill it.

The only time I've faced it I have killed it shooting with Von Schill in a single activation.

That is why I believe it has to throw into the brawl as quickly as possible.

It is also HT3...very hard to hide or to stay in cover. And being back, I think it brings ~nothing to the team !

[Math Mathonwy]

OK, this is going to be really silly but giving her Flight will make those Charges a lot easier and Taxidermists can give Flight. It does require a Mask, though and Taxidermists aren't all that enticing due to stuff like Burt and Francois at the same SS cost.

[Dogmantra]

I'm also wondering what sort of board you're playing on. In my experience if charge lanes are difficult to come by then you're also going to be able to get cover pretty easily, making being shot to death much slower.

[Blacks85]

1 hour ago, Dogmantra said:

I'm also wondering what sort of board you're playing on. In my experience if charge lanes are difficult to come by then you're also going to be able to get cover pretty easily, making being shot to death much slower.

Fields are very full of terrains...Sure, it is to stay in cover...but hard is the cover, hard is to charge across the cover.

And even if in cover, a couple of shoot with focus can easily reduce below 5 the wounds.

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

OK, this is going to be really silly but giving her Flight will make those Charges a lot easier and Taxidermists can give Flight. It does require a Mask, though and Taxidermists aren't all that enticing due to stuff like Burt and Francois at the same SS cost.

That would be fun! And technically even very strong  Maybe with somer? He likes the mask 

Have you ever tried the taxidermists? Even only think to hire one of them instead Burt, Francois, Rami...or even the less lucky Raphael makes me cry.

[thebarbalag]

I agree with pretty much everything that's being said as advice in this thread. Take a deep breath and realize that a Master charging and killing a Minion, even a pricey Minion, isn't a crazy thing. Especially when that Master is a specialized Minion-killer like Mei Fang.

Timing is really important with a model like the Sow, and a lot of Gremlins' fragile shenanigans. Getting something that hits hard, but can't take a hit over-exposed before it has a chance to attack is going to get it killed. Often in Gremlins, you're going to want to take advantage of your activation advantage to avoid committing your power pieces until after things which are a threat to them have activated. For example, Magical Burt Jepsen is usually the last thing I activate in a Wong list on the turn I plan on unleashing him, so that on the off chance that he fails to kill Joss or the Rail Golem, or whatever I aimed him at, I have a chance (a good one, thanks Trixie!) of winning initiative to get another activation out of him before he faces any retribution. 

[Math Mathonwy]

21 hours ago, Blacks85 said:

That would be fun! And technically even very strong  Maybe with somer? He likes the mask 

Have you ever tried the taxidermists? Even only think to hire one of them instead Burt, Francois, Rami...or even the less lucky Raphael makes me cry.

I'm building mine at the moment - haven't had them on the table yet. But I could see them in a Somer crew as Corpse Markers should be plentiful. They seem like OK pieces but their problem is that their competition is all amazing.

[Blacks85]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I'm building mine at the moment - haven't had them on the table yet. But I could see them in a Somer crew as Corpse Markers should be plentiful. They seem like OK pieces but their problem is that their competition is all amazing.

Yeah, they should have been 6 SS model...still ok, not strong anyway.

Tonight I will give them a try and report my thoughts

[SinJ]

Taxidermists seems pretty decent for the cost. I play mine as a counter to weak scheme runners on the flank. I would consider him if you are also bringing Stuffed Piglets as his Dead Man's Switch ability can be quite nasty!

[Omenbringer]

I like the Taxidermists but agree they are priced too high.

[Blacks85]

I've tried the sow for the second time, and I have to agree with my first impression 
But I will keep trying it a couple of times more.

This time I've instant killed Langston in a single charge (I had red joker for DMG in hand..and started charge within Old Major) but only because he made a slight mistake in movement and I could abuse it to charge Howard first. Then Joss charged him and it has blown up as usual right after.

Sure the trade was absolutely positive and Yes, I've under-estimated the DMG output of the SOW. But still the problem, you can charge only if opponent makes movement mistake OR if you use the pig engine to out-activate and then move + sling shot its rear.

I think this second way is the only consistent I've found (I still have to try the flying sow ) but I don't know, does it worth?

[Flat Tooth]

To piggyback (teehee) off of what Dogmantra said I like to bring her with Brewwie. Once I get the drinking party going she can typically nestle in and any time someone fails a drinking duel she takes a chunk out of them. Her min damage is the same as the max heal on the drink so at worst is a net 0. Furthermore if they try and attack her while near Brewwie and poisoned there's a good chance they'll get paralyzed. If she takes damage she can just drink some herself and heal up largely ignoring the poison  

 

Its ugly and it's beautiful. 

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, Flat Tooth said:

To piggyback (teehee) off of what Dogmantra said I like to bring her with Brewwie. Once I get the drinking party going she can typically nestle in and any time someone fails a drinking duel she takes a chunk out of them. Her min damage is the same as the max heal on the drink so at worst is a net 0. Furthermore if they try and attack her while near Brewwie and poisoned there's a good chance they'll get paralyzed. If she takes damage she can just drink some herself and heal up largely ignoring the poison  

 

Its ugly and it's beautiful. 

Note that Smell Fear is only once per turn.

[Flat Tooth]

12 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Note that Smell Fear is only once per turn.

Yeah it definitely is. I tend to only get a few problem pieces in the bubble anyway before people start avoiding the party haha. Once I get them killed with the Sow and a Performer I look for more targets. Typically the Sow gets shot down at some point and then I have little piggies roaming around. If they don't kill the piglets right off the bat then I can heal them up with a brewmaster drink!

[Blacks85]

So, I've followed your ideas and keep trying the big pig!

Just a quick tale....

Yesterday night I've applied two Swill  to Nekima and then charged her straight away with a very proud  "The Sow" . She was half wounded...but I was able to MISS both attacks and - holy moly - being killed in response!  Nekima passed the terror with incredible "skill" and then...she hit the third attack and flip a cool red joker on the damages....kabooooom

Are these gods trying to tell me "leave your pig in the bag"? Because I suppose so

P.s. I still find it - despite this insane situation - pretty hard to use because in order to don't make it an easy killable target...you have to play it defilate and can't really charge or hit a lot with it.

Do your opponent let him charge then straight away? Because mine, don't Unless I out-activate them...making it bad with Brewy and good with Som'er / Ulix.

[PositronMike]

I have tried the Sow a few times now and have been undone by the black joker on every occasion. I do think that Hog Whispers help her a lot as the ability to give her reactivate on the turn you want to charge means that you summon with her and then charge a model in the second activation to heal up the damage from summoning.

I just need to remember to summon the piglets when she dies as I have so far forgotten every time I have used her.

[Blacks85]

3 hours ago, PositronMike said:

I have tried the Sow a few times now and have been undone by the black joker on every occasion. I do think that Hog Whispers help her a lot as the ability to give her reactivate on the turn you want to charg

This is a very good idea.

The problem with it, even if you out-activate... you often don't have a charge line, but if you also move it twice the charge is almost sure!

Thanks