Theorycrafting changes in current models

[lusciousmccabe]

11 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I disagree, his actions are great, they are just all way too expensive/limited. An errata that bumps his cast by 1-3, removes the various "once per turn" language from his actions, and maybe (maybe) builds in a ram here or there and Lucius is competitive. It won't put him in the "always take" tier of masters, but it will give him a strong place in pools that encourage aggressive scheming/scheme denial.

If Lucius automatically succeeded on his commanding abilities then he'd be about as good as one and a half extra minions. Woohoo.

He needs to do that and other things to be on par with any other Master. At the moment he has a bunch of restriction imposed on his ability do do something unimpressive. 

[admiralvorkraft]

I don't find his abilities unimpressive. Sure, he doesn't table opponents, but he passes AP at longer ranges than any other model in the game which gives him solid board influence, he kills his own models efficiently enough to make it work as a denial tool/a way to abuse on damaging or on death effects.

He changes the board in subtle but important ways, and I maintain that the only problem with that is how expensive it is to make those changes.

[lusciousmccabe]

Well all the other AP sharey Masters already have lower TNs than Lucius (apart from possibly Zoraida) and also have an impact on the game through their other abilities and actions. If you reduced Lucius' TNs then he'd have the advantage of range and being able to kill his own models, which shouldn't be a feather in anybody's cap. 

As far as I'm concerned he should have Guild Intelligence on the front of his card (has anyone ever used it?) all his upgrades looked at and a relaxation of his command limits and TNs. Being as good at doling out AP as some other Masters isn't enough when you look at what they can all do outside of that. 

[admiralvorkraft]

I've used Guild Intelligence with Queeg and Secret Objectives, but it's corner case. It's also a cheaper way of enabling the sort of shenanigans that I usually depend on Hidden Sniper for.

Killing your own models is a pretty normal way to deny things like Exhaust/Catch and Release/CO/Distract/Take Prisoner/Headhunter. It can also deny Reckoning/Collect the Bounty/Hunting Party but you have to be more careful about your timing. More corner case scenarios I've used Devil's Deal to; put the final point of damage on Joss (by killing a Stalker), dropped god knows how many scheme markers (Finish the Job, sometimes in conjunction with Tread the Line from Sue), cycled my hand (in conjunction with a Pathfinder), splashed Black Blood (from Graves), timely reactivations (by killing a Performer near the right model at the right time).

I'll grant that it's a weird strength for a master to have, but figuring out how to get the most out of Devil's Deal has improved my Lucius game immensely.

But yes - lower TNs (bring Issue Command in line with Prompt, make Commanding Presence TN 11), more built in suits (specifically on Sword Cane, Issue Command should either have a built in Ram or a push trigger on Crows), strip the arbitrary "once per turn" language from Issue Command and maybe Lackeys (though that might be too much, Lackeys is already incredibly good). That's my wishlist, just two of three would make him competitive more than any new model "patch."

[lusciousmccabe]

I think (and may have said somewhere in the depths of this thread) that Lackeys should probably be a (0) action since it would automatically be limited to once per turn and Lucius could do with one on his base card. Obviously this conflicts with hidden sniper, but that could have Instinctual added on at 2 SS, or it could be reduced to 1 SS (since you'd use it less) and instinctual could be on the other one to make it less crap. 

[LunarSol]

I think we're all saying a total rewrite is needed in the sense that anything on his card is worth reevaluating and potentially changing. That's not to say everything needs to change to make him work but it seems pretty clear there's potential slack in everything that could be used to tighten him up. 

[admiralvorkraft]

11 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

I think we're all saying a total rewrite is needed in the sense that anything on his card is worth reevaluating and potentially changing. That's not to say everything needs to change to make him work but it seems pretty clear there's potential slack in everything that could be used to tighten him up. 

I would go so far as to say that I like his kit. I like having a master that makes minor (but significant) changes to board state. That concept will never yield an absolute powerhouse master like Levi, but it's a very Malifaux concept. But yes, if he's going to be making minor board state changes then they need to be cheap and reliable, not baroque and expensive.

No matter how much "baroque and expensive" fits his aesthetic to a T.

[lusciousmccabe]

5 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I would go so far as to say that I like his kit. I like having a master that makes minor (but significant) changes to board state. That concept will never yield an absolute powerhouse master like Levi, but it's a very Malifaux concept. But yes, if he's going to be making minor board state changes then they need to be cheap and reliable, not baroque and expensive.

No matter how much "baroque and expensive" fits his aesthetic to a T.

Baroque and Expensive: Whenever a friendly minion, Mimic or Guardsman within 8 makes a flip it may discard a card to gain  to the flip.

[Gnomezilla]

Would you take a guardsman specific, rare 1, cost unknown to change guardsmens' scheme marker shenanigans from whatever their restricted type is (enemy for guild guard, friendly for guild hound/sergeant) to either all scheme markers (cost 0), or all scheme AND STRATEGY markers (cost 1 or 2, because kicking, say, stash markers changes everything)?

[lusciousmccabe]

I think moving Stash markers around is a bad idea. Being able to do that in Relic Knights completely warps the game and I think there's a reason Aionus can't do it.  

[LunarSol]

It is very dangerous design space, both as something a model could have and as something strategies would have to be designed around in the future.

[Gnomezilla]

That's fine then, leave it aside and leave them immobile. Would it be any sort of boost to guild guard to let them (and expert sleuths) move up to strategy markers as well as scheme markers?

[lusciousmccabe]

Well it would certainly be a boost and give them some level of certainty when you take them (you know the strategy markers will be there, enemy scheme markers are a maybe). 

 

[Vorschlag]

I think something unique like effecting strategy markers would be inline with Lucius but unless it was designed carefully I could imagine it becoming a contentious issue.

 

[LunarSol]

He said Guardsman, which I assume meant Dashel/Sergeant.

[Gnomezilla]

1 hour ago, LunarSol said:

He said Guardsman, which I assume meant Dashel/Sergeant.

I did say guardsman, at first, to include sergeants etc., but then dropped the idea of also boosting those who manipulate scheme marker placement and cut the idea down to only those who move themselves to scheme markers and need the help with mobility. It'll get guild guards into the thick of the fighting but not into the opponent's half of the table to score. Also, wastrels with their potential 2AP 12" teleport to scheme marker don't feel broken, so giving the less damaging guards that kind of movement feels solid. Also also, Lucius' schtick ought to be control at range, and so letting some more guardsmen get more movement so they also can spread out and share the range may help.

1 hour ago, Vorschlag said:

I think something unique like effecting strategy markers would be inline with Lucius but unless it was designed carefully I could imagine it becoming a contentious issue.

As carefully as his laying claim to enemy scheme markers at the end of the game? Just give him that back at the end of any given turn. Or worse, give him four enemy scheme markers over the course of the game, to be selected on whichever turn he so chooses. I'll take two this turn (that'll be no full points set up for you, and oops you aren't scoring convict labor this turn either) and leave two in reserve....

[Ludvig]

Legalese could just be changed to an aura that always counted enemy markers as friendly for the entire game (and end game scoring). That would give him some scheme deniabilty power (but isn't worse than Hamelin shutting down distract + cursed object so completely).

[lusciousmccabe]

They would be pretty cool. What's the size of the aura on legalese?

[trikk]

4" I believe

[Gnomezilla]

12 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Legalese could just be changed to an aura that always counted enemy markers as friendly for the entire game (and end game scoring). That would give him some scheme deniabilty power (but isn't worse than Hamelin shutting down distract + cursed object so completely).

I'd have to see it playtested. I WANT to see it playtested. 4" is also the distance of dropped scheme marker separation so it wouldn't shut that many markers which cost AP but it would do a lovely job muddying the works of Finish the Job, Deliver Orders, etc. And, as mentioned, not worse than Hamelin's 6" aura overlooking height 1 hordes. Lucius' crews aren't generally short.

[Gnomezilla]

On 6/10/2016 at 11:13 AM, Gnomezilla said:

I'd have to see it playtested. I WANT to see it playtested. 4" is also the distance of dropped scheme marker separation so it wouldn't shut that many markers which cost AP but it would do a lovely job muddying the works of Finish the Job, Deliver Orders, etc. And, as mentioned, not worse than Hamelin's 6" aura overlooking height 1 hordes. Lucius' crews aren't generally short.

In light of today's Outcast master's front of card automatic ability, I retract this statement. Sod the playtesting--just give Legalese aura the same automatic ability to override scheme marker ownership. And in light of once again having to dip into Outcasts to justify the power of something meant for Guild, add in a few more exclamations learned in the smoky blue air of a construct workshop...

[Surrealistik]

Hoffman fixes posed in another thread:

 

Improvised Genius from Remote Mines improved to make it worth taking and help address one of Hoffman's most glaring weaknesses where positioning for him is everything:

Improvised Genius: "Models with the Power Loop condition can't be moved or pushed by enemy effects."

 

Magnetic revised to give Hoffman basic protection against forced movement totally breaking his crew's cohesion (and thus the crew) with casual ease:

Magnetic: "This model may not declare more than two Walk Actions per Activation. When a friendly Construct in Au3 moves or is pushed, this model may push into base contact with that Construct after this movement is complete. When this model would move or be pushed for any reason other than this Ability, a friendly Construct in Au3 may push into base contact with it after that movement is complete."

 

OSA gains the following Ability to make it more appealing vis a vis a buffed Remote Mines, and helps address a secondary Hoffman problem, whereas he's overtly dependent on armour to keep himself and his ball upright:

Powered Armor: "Models with the Power Loop condition can't have their Armor or its damage reduction ignored, reduced or negated."

 

Lastly, by tying strong benefits to Power Loop, the magic number for looping is no longer virtually always 3; sometimes it may be more depending on the circumstances, while also balancing it around defensive as well as offensive considerations, introducing more interesting choices to Hoffman play (as if he doesn't have enough already right?). Meanwhile, Power Loop can be removed to subvert these benefits.

[Gnomezilla]

I'm still not convinced the enhanced tag-along benefits are necessary, especially with the sanctioned spellcaster in faction, but the addition to power loop solves both problems that will develop with power creep over time: that boosting (say) defenses to 6 has meant less as more models were released with an attack not at the baseline of 5, and that there were more armor ignoring options available to all factions as well. And yes, it would make the tactical decision of what to loop when be influenced by defensive needs again, instead of just offensive (because spreading around that number 7 for melee is more attractive and urgent than spreading that number 6). Also, tying the armor-negation-negation to power loop means there comes a counter to it again in condition removal, which should ease the minds of our opponents knowing that a counter still exists--they'll just have to spend AP for it.

[daniello_s]

13 hours ago, Gnomezilla said:

In light of today's Outcast master's front of card automatic ability, I retract this statement. Sod the playtesting--just give Legalese aura the same automatic ability to override scheme marker ownership. And in light of once again having to dip into Outcasts to justify the power of something meant for Guild, add in a few more exclamations learned in the smoky blue air of a construct workshop...

It is not automatic. You have to discard your hand to make it happen so if comes at the cost. Not to mention you have to push your master close to enemy scheme markers (which is effectively enemy crew) to steal those markers.

[trikk]

I think it can be very potent in some scheme pools and totally worthless in some other.