Is Datsue-Ba actually awful?

[Whut]

So lately I've been taking Datsue in a lot of my lists, and the more I do this the more I think that this model isn't actually worth the ss it costs, for the following reasons:

1) It costs 9-10 ss (assuming Spirit Whispers and potentially Spirit Beacon). For this cost you can get Anna Lovelace. For this cost you can get Philip with Take Back the Night. For this cost you can get Izamu.

2) Datsue's damage output is awful. Her melee attack does a pretty mediocre 2/3/4, and even though it ignores armor that won't make much of a difference unless going against models which are Armor 2 or more. Weighed Sins is even worse with a 1/2/6, basically requiring a focus and a high card from hand (if not 2) to get that tasty 6. But if you don't start within 8" of the enemy and have the high cards to spare, it's not worth it. And although she can technically get positive flips from Adversary, she doesn't have enough AP to make full use of it, so she requires support from Kirai or another model to use AP to apply the condition before Datsue's activation. The trigger on her melee is also not built in, requiring a stone or lucky flip just to take an attack that will likely only cause one extra damage.

3) Summoning a Seishin costs an 8. The Seishin is nice for blocking up the enemy, but so many Resser actions already require that card. The Emmisary wants a 7, every Necropunk wants a 7, Sybelle wants an 8 (for molly), Kirai wants a 6, plus you want anything from 7's to 13's for summoning. Often you won't get as many medium - high cards as you need for all of these.

4) The other action on spirit whispers is usually a trap. If you take this (1) action, you don't have enough AP to do anything useful other than ping something for adversary or drop a scheme marker.

5) She's not durable. Sure Terrifying(All) and Incorporeal *might* mitigate a ton of damage, but it's just as likely that your opponent will pass or cheat the terrifying duel (most models only need a 6) and chunk Datsue for half her health or more with a single cast. She's also super vulnerable to blasts and pulses and only has 5 WP. The discard 2 cards thing is nice, but consider your opponent just killed a 9 or 10 point model if that ever happens.

6) Seishin are really hit or miss. Most games, they accomplish nothing other than a bit of activation control (but not really since for Datsue's price you can hire 2 models easily) and soaking an attack to prevent a charge. All of the above can be accomplished with the Carrion Emmisary. One out of every 5 games, getting the blast immunity might actually help (problem is doing this kills an activation at the top of the turn and makes it your opponent's turn to activate, so you let go of some momentum).

7) Weigh Sins is really hit or miss. The summoning is great! But the setup is annoying at least and a trap at most. You need to reduce a model to 1-2 wounds and thenot kill it with weigh sins. This can go wrong in so many ways (like flipping too much damage on the setup attack and killing the target, or spending a stone for the tome on her melee attack and then miss either that or the weigh sins. When this works it's great, but those instances are few and far between and usually cost some high cards and some setup.

Don't get me wrong, she's not bad. But she really competes for cards and doesn't really do much useful herself other than summon Seishin. I keep hearing that Datsue is almost auto-take good and I just don't see that. 

[Primed]

theres a thread a few down that i started last month, with some tips and tricks for using her.

[MEGAHORSE]

Well for my group, while we havent had the time to play lately, we arent using wave 3 things yet, so Anna is off the table. She is a definite power jump for our ranged and control options. 

Datsue ba is card hungry, and seems terrible. She is a trap, in some scenarios. One of the most valuable lessons one can learn on their own is how to list build based around your playstyle and strengths, as well as the task at hand. Dont take "netlists". I know this game doesnt promote netlisting, but you still see plenty of it, particularly with "All comer" lists. 

I think there is plenty of hyperbole and there are casual and competitive players on this forum, so you're seeing alot of different perspectives, but you sometimes dont know from which perspective the person is speaking. For example, I think Canine Remains are one of the worst Resser models rules wise, but plenty of people swear by them. I also personally think Sybelle is a pretty useless tarpit outside of Molly, where she just teleports her around for 8ss. I think Izamu is an overrated glass cannon, but others dont feel the same way.

At the end of the day, it's really how you utilize the model. I know, it's a cop out for me to say that, but it's true. Datsue ba's strengths lie in the schemes, strategies, terrain, and the player's own skill and strengths. 

With Seamus, Datsue ba's Seishin can be used to provide cover for him, and since Seamus is less concerned with keeping high cards for summoning/swirling spirits/Expunging, he can afford to pitch an 8+ for a few turns to get valuable activation control and ways to activate back alley without needing to worry as much. Is that worth 9-10ss for that effect? That's up to you. Is the ignore armor always worth it? No, but now you have an out against Illuminated/Arcanists/Outcasts who rely on it as their perhaps only defensive measure. Since Seamus cannot ignore armor, and neither can Belles, Sybelle, etc, taking her against Arcanists isn't a bad idea! Like Sybelle, Datsue's damage track isnt impressive, it's the utility she offers that makes her shine. She isn't meant to be specifically killy, or tarpitty, but somewhere in the middle, while offering you free walks, activation control, conditional summoning, etc.

I'm going to go through each point now, on this edit. 

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1) It costs 9-10 ss (assuming Spirit Whispers and potentially Spirit Beacon). For this cost you can get Anna Lovelace. For this cost you can get Philip with Take Back the Night. For this cost you can get Izamu.

This is true. However, Phillip is also much weaker in melee and has but HtW and Manipulative to keep him safe, while offering different utility. I find Hard To Wound+Manipulative particularly weak to a sustained assault, but merely dissuades random pot shots. Izamu is incredibly weak to anything that ignores armor (many many ranged units these days) and anything that forces placement/movement on Wp duels outside his activation. My Neverborn opponents love seeing him since he's so easy to neutralize, if not outright kill. On the same page, they typically struggle against Datsue ba without throwing a higher point model against it in melee. This plays more into how like you said, Datsue isnt something you always take, and I think the same can be said of Izamu.

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2) Datsue's damage output is awful. Her melee attack does a pretty mediocre 2/3/4, and even though it ignores armor that won't make much of a difference unless going against models which are Armor 2 or more. Weighed Sins is even worse with a 1/2/6, basically requiring a focus and a high card from hand (if not 2) to get that tasty 6. But if you don't start within 8" of the enemy and have the high cards to spare, it's not worth it. And although she can technically get positive flips from Adversary, she doesn't have enough AP to make full use of it, so she requires support from Kirai or another model to use AP to apply the condition before Datsue's activation. The trigger on her melee is also not built in, requiring a stone or lucky flip just to take an attack that will likely only cause one extra damage.

You're right. Many games, like with Phillip, I'm not even attacking with her. The Gaki summon is the juicy thing to aim for. It's when attacking comes up, I make use of it. Many games she makes scheme markers for Phillip and Seishin for my master, occasionally walking spirits, and being menacing. My opponents over-evaluate her power, and gun for her, throwing alot of AP into taking her down due to her nice defensive abilities. I'd rather them focus her than Phillip or my master!

In addition, cheating in a high card for Severe and spending a soulstone, if needed, to summon a Gaki and kill a model is what makes Datsue ba so dangerous. Yes, it's resource intensive, but she suddenly removes a model and creates a new one for you, which is a huge swing in activation numbers and may cause your opponent to completely need to re-evaluate their game plan. It's fun to surprise people with it, since they dont expect it. 

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3) Summoning a Seishin costs an 8. The Seishin is nice for blocking up the enemy, but so many Resser actions already require that card. The Emmisary wants a 7, every Necropunk wants a 7, Sybelle wants an 8 (for molly), Kirai wants a 6, plus you want anything from 7's to 13's for summoning. Often you won't get as many medium - high cards as you need for all of these.

This is true. If I dont think I can manage a Seishin, like with a weak hand or a hand I want to save for more important things, I move a spirit instead. Worst case, it's not a bad 0 to try for if you have nothing to move off her one 0 action, or stop a model from walking. Dont underestimate the power of activation control off these little mooks!

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4) The other action on spirit whispers is usually a trap. If you take this (1) action, you don't have enough AP to do anything useful other than ping something for adversary or drop a scheme marker.

Worst case it makes the opponent think twice about tabling some weak summonable spirits near you, especially with Plant Explosives and similar schemes. I dont really use it often. Best use of it could be for popping it turn 1 and have Kirai summon off of a Night Terror you hired, to summon an Onyro then a Hanged, netting a free scheme marker upfield for Phillip. It's more of a support type action. Per my statements before, she is both support, beater, and tarpit when need be. She can't be all of these things at her point cost, without being overpowered as all getout. 

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5) She's not durable. Sure Terrifying(All) and Incorporeal *might* mitigate a ton of damage, but it's just as likely that your opponent will pass or cheat the terrifying duel (most models only need a 6) and chunk Datsue for half her health or more with a single cast. She's also super vulnerable to blasts and pulses and only has 5 WP. The discard 2 cards thing is nice, but consider your opponent just killed a 9 or 10 point model if that ever happens.

The issue isnt that the opponent will cheat it, it's the tax that it costs them to do so. a 6+ over the course of the turn can eventually strip 10+ cards when they really want to hit her... only for you to cheat higher when they fail to connect. She's much more durable than some other models, depending on the circumstances. I never account for the discarding 2 cards thing, but it keeps them from holding higher cards for next turn! She's taxing, like playing Stax/MUD in magic. If I make you pay more for your spells, you have less mana to counter what I will do next turn, it slows you down. You're right about blasts and pulses. But not every model. 

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6) Seishin are really hit or miss. Most games, they accomplish nothing other than a bit of activation control (but not really since for Datsue's price you can hire 2 models easily) and soaking an attack to prevent a charge. All of the above can be accomplished with the Carrion Emmisary. One out of every 5 games, getting the blast immunity might actually help (problem is doing this kills an activation at the top of the turn and makes it your opponent's turn to activate, so you let go of some momentum).

This is true of Mindless Zombies as well, but Seishin pack more utility. While their abilities arent always useful, having them as a tool is the key. It brings something to the table you dont have to hire in before the game begins. Kirai loves them as Beacons to deflect damage, as summon batteries, swiling aether targets, etc. 

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7) Weigh Sins is really hit or miss. The summoning is great! But the setup is annoying at least and a trap at most. You need to reduce a model to 1-2 wounds and thenot kill it with weigh sins. This can go wrong in so many ways (like flipping too much damage on the setup attack and killing the target, or spending a stone for the tome on her melee attack and then miss either that or the weigh sins. When this works it's great, but those instances are few and far between and usually cost some high cards and some setup.

Much like McMourning and Expunging, I wouldnt make it your singular gameplan, but more or less an option. It definitely catches opponents off guard. 

[Fireuser]

Datsue Ba as a built in trigger to summon a Gaki when killing a model..... no extra ap needed for the summon, and you do not necessarily need a high card, or any other resource. You should always try and use this when able.

And she can make 4 attacks in 1 turn if you have the suits.

[Whut]

Thanks for the replies, you made some good points. With all due respect though, I remain unconvinced. Simply because of the 9ss cost, Datsue remains an expected underperformer. Theres a lot of "she can" for Datsue, and not a lot of "she is" or "she will". She can be survivable, then again, your opponent could have high accuracy Ca actions, so she may not. She can eat a 10 out of your opponent's hand with Terrifying, then again, your opponent could have a 6 in hand, so she may not. She can summon a Gaki or Onryo, but then again, it's going to require high cards, lucky flips, or leaving enemy models with 1-2 wounds and hoping you can hit - so she may not. She can get free Seishin, or she might need to cheat an 8 from her hand - so she might not. Her armor ignore can be useful, but her damage track is pretty bad anyway and not everyone has armor, so it may not.

With Anna you KNOW you're getting value. I know I'm getting a free card to cycle, I know I'm getting a strong Ca attack, I know I'm getting a fairly survivable model. I know I'm getting a pretty solid push action. She *can* also screw with enemy pushing and placing but that's mostly gravy (and pretty strong gravy!).

With Izamu you KNOW you're getting a moderately survivable beatstick, provided you can speed him up and provided you can stay clear of Armor-ignoring high damage attacks.

With Philip you KNOW you're getting a powerful card cycling action and some anti-scheme running.

You don't really get that with Datsue. Most games I've played with her (around 8-10 ish at this point I think) I deploy her thinking "oh, I guess she'll walk around and summon a bit, then... something? The only time I get legitimately strong use out of her is during Interference where she can engage enemies with Seishin, or when I need to put 4 wounds on an enemy with Armor +2.

[Mantis Toboggan]

I don't see much point in taking her with anyone other than Kirai, which I suppose is intended .

When I run Kirai and Datty-B I do so with the intent of Datsue-Ba summoning seishin for Swirling Spirit shenanigans to score objective points and finishing off enemies for the summon. It's actually pretty simple if you plan ahead a bit. 

She's won games for me by acting as a sort of teleport beacon for Kirai. Sure, she seems bad in a vacumn, but so do a lot of things.

[Phototropic]

i find her great with kirai as well, that extra seishin on the first turn to add +2 to CA can help get two powerful summons, and lost love can teleport to her extending the malevolence bubble easily. I really like her attack which summons, and being able to shoot into engagements. and she benefits from all the adversary being thrown around. i have used her with yan lo to give him a seishin to kill so he can get spirit ascendant first turn then give her, izamu and someone else activations. its a lot harder for a yan lo crew to ahnd out adversary so she comes in handy for this. she is a big part of my kirai crews but i can see why she might not be as strong in other crews

[Adran]

Stryder has a post about a year ago about how he uses her with Seamus, making the most of the Wp penalties and so forth. (Just after he won the UK masters with it)

She is not a model that stands out on her own, but she has some great support/interactions. If you build your crews to make the most of her, she can really shine, but if you build a list and then just add her, she will be poor. 

Edit

Its lunch, and I was bored, 

And the datsuba stuff 

Datsu-Ba (Cost 10 with upgrades)

-Spirit Beacon

-Spirit Whispers

 

I predicted Ben would play Levi on one thing: Our strategy was Recon, which has 'Mech Rider' written all over it. Fine. You pump out metal gamin, I turn them into gaki and get a free seishin to boot. Winner-Winner!

Datsu was probably the most important model in this game for me. She killed Levi, stopped the flood of metal gamin and held an entire half of the board to a standstill with only a canine remains and whatever she could summon as support while facing off against a hunter and the Mech Rider. A key part of this was the fact that seishin do count for denying Protect Territory. By the end, there were so many seishin (the full five) and gaki that Ben was forced to play for this scheme on another part of the board rather than focus on strategy, which ultimately cost him the game. Near the end of turn four a fellow master's player cast a cursory glance at the game, pointed at my mass of seishin and remarked “I see Datsuie's been busy!” Boy, was he right...

 

Datsu-Ba definitely gets the MVP award for the game, she's really effective as a stand-alone model with those two upgrades on her. Seishin will wall her off and not move if she spends a wound to keep them alive, then get one to heal her and open up a nice 'firing lane' for her in the process.

[D_acolyte]

I played her as my leader in a campaign and I found that if you had the ability to invest into her then she is worth more then her stones otherwise if you did not want to invest into making her work then she was hit or miss. That does not make her awful it just means that if you are looking for a consistent model to do X without taking up resources then she is not for you.

She is a utility model that can do a lot of different things, as such I can see where people under utilize her a lot. I took spirit beacon on her and not spirit whisper and used her zero action mostly move spirits thought I did do the no movement sometime. Her damage seems low unless you invest into her attack with stones or cards then it gets better as she can make up to 4 attacks. weigh sins is great in a spirit crew because of giving adversary, this lets you run her and a shikome together for a deadly affect.

[Paddywhack]

Someone on FB posted this trick with Dastue-Bae, but I'm not sure its valid. Yes abilities generally stack, but all the versions i can think of (Night Terrors, Canine remains, Crooligans) all have something with a +/- in front of it. Spirit Whispers just says drops a scheme marker, not +1 scheme marker.

Is this a valid trick?

"Spirit Whisper is on the upgrade of the same name:-
(1) Spirit Whispers: Until the end of the Turn, when another non-Peon Spirit is killed within a6, place a Scheme Marker in base contact with it before removing it.
 

Since it is not a Condition, it stacks with itself. So Datsue Ba does it twice, and Molly makes her do it again with Whispers of Past Life. Then, any Drowned that Molly Summons within 6" of Datsu Ba drops 1 Scheme Marker due to Finish the Job and 3 due to the 3 stacked effects of Spirit Whispers."

 

[Daysleeper]

I cant see a reason why it would stack honestly.

[BigHammer]

It does. Conditions only stack if they state +X, but abilities stack by default unless they say otherwise. It's covered in the FAQ when it talks about Mei Feng and Vent Steam (which also stacks, for the same reason).

[KuroTora]

it absolutely stacks ... just like vent steam from mei feng (faq states that abilities stack if not mentioned otherwise ... unlike conditions that only stack when mentioned).

 

Edit:   never mind ... too slow

[BigHammer]

20 minutes ago, KuroTora said:

it absolutely stacks ... just like vent steam from mei feng (faq states that abilities stack if not mentioned otherwise ... unlike conditions that only stack when mentioned).

 

Edit:   never mind ... too slow

*disappears in a puff of smoke*

[Daysleeper]

Oh ok ... i did not know that :-D

[Paddywhack]

Just seems very odd... Vent Steam is a  so it makes sense that it stacks as we are used to that in the game. Dropping multiple markers seems...odd. 

[Munindk]

It happens in other factions as well, in Neverborn Pandora and Sorrows have Misery, which is an ability, and that stacks.

[Paddywhack]

Are there any other abilities that stack that allow multiple Scheme Marker placement?

According to the FAQ Misery does not stack, but each instance is applied individually, which  might actually make the case for allowing it better really.

This is the only ability I can think of that would allow multiple scheme markers. 

[Adran]

There are several actions that drop multiple Scheme markers (Mechanical Rider Trigger and File false claim on the Union Miner), as well as abilities that allow for the dropping of multiple scrap markers when a model is killed, so dropping multiple markers isn't a rules issue. 

There aren't any instances I can think of outside of this that do exactly what you want, but I'd say Drop a scheme marker and Attack flips gain are just as obvious about stacking. 

If both players did spirit Whispers, then they would both get to drop a scheme marker, and that seems fine to me, and saves lots of rules arguments because nothing tells us who would drop it if only 1 person could. Following on from that, if multiple models had it on the same side, then it also makes sense that  multiple scheme markers would be dropped, and then if the same model had it multiple times, it wills till work.