MR TORGUE Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 I know, I know; She's possibly one of the worst totems in the game (although she shines once in every full moon). Just curious though; What would you have liked to have seen as a totem for Tara; Failing that what would you have liked to see Karina bring to the table instead of her current manifestation. Also is there any expanded fluff on her yet? not seen the new book yet.. I feel she has the potential for an awesome back story..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solkan Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 12 minutes ago, MR TORGUE said: Also is there any expanded fluff on her yet? not seen the new book yet.. I feel she has the potential for an awesome back story..? How much of her original story line have you read, vs. the story as it has been retold in the 2nd edition books? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Karina: I'm absolutely not sold to her even after she was given her 0SS summoning upgrade. She is slow, IMO over-costed and her summoning is so situational you can't really rely on it and plan anything. I'll give her another go shortly as the part of aggressive burying crew and see if she can add anything substantial where Aionus is on the table. As for alternative totem for Tara - keep Karina but change her cost to 4SS give her Ca Expert which can be used with actions targeting only buried models. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phinn Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 25 minutes ago, MR TORGUE said: Also is there any expanded fluff on her yet? not seen the new book yet.. I feel she has the potential for an awesome back story..? Dead of Winter by Scott Ollenberger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigHammer Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 She appears in two stories in Shifting Loyalties, and in both is fantastic. I'd recommend reading it. As for what I'd like to see, reanimated roast chickens as a summon rates highly (related!). Honestly, though, what other 5 SS non-master model in the game has such powerful summoning as Karina? Not only can she summon some excellent models, she also does so as a (0) action. Sure, you really need the crow in hand and Tara tends to want 7+ of crows for her own unburying (though Tara can make do with a Soulstone), but Outcasts and Ressers both have access to a good amount of card draw, so getting a decent crow in hand once or twice per game isn't impossible, and summoning even a single Punk Zombie can be a real game changer. I don't dislike her, as long as she has that upgrade on her (Long Forgotten Magics is... weird). And that one time you successfully bash an Ice Golem in the head with a rock... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrella Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 I think Karina with her new upgrade is fine honestly, there aren't many 5 point summoners out there. Only thing I guess that could have been different is if she's had the summoning from the start, but eh, that's how game design goes. I really enjoy her fluff as well, she features in the Resser and Outcast stories in Shifting Loyalties and also in the Dead Winter campaign fluff that got linked above. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR TORGUE Posted February 12, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 41 minutes ago, Astrella said: I think Karina with her new upgrade is fine honestly, there aren't many 5 point summoners out there. Only thing I guess that could have been different is if she's had the summoning from the start, but eh, that's how game design goes. I really enjoy her fluff as well, she features in the Resser and Outcast stories in Shifting Loyalties and also in the Dead Winter campaign fluff that got linked above. I think your on to something there with her having the 0 summon built in to the card. I feel the 1ss upgrade where she can sacrifice models would actually be really helpful to stop the unbury void mechanic triggered from kills. Does anyone else feel that the two 0 upgrades were simply 'patch 1.1' for her initially underwhelming box. theres so many upgrades i would love to give the nothing beast but are always blocked by the void shield choice. - just release an errata card for the two models with the abilities built in already!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astrella Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 I mean, a lot of the 0 cost upgrades released in Wave 2 were patches for models, look at Samurai for example as well. I think Wyrd has a preference (and I agree with it) to do fixes through upgrades, since it's a lot easier to make sure people are aware of it then than doing it through Errata. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DXXXVIII Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 I need to admit, i dislike Karina.... yes she can summon with a mid-high crow once a turn and only costs 5 SS... but... Obedient wretch can do so as well and better for a cheaper price. It happens like once a decade that I'm happy to have brought karina due to hgh crows to to the right time to summon sth that was game-supporting. I usually swap Karina for Obedient wretch, just a better model (my opinion). Its like: Do I have a high crow? Do I need this high crow for something else? Will the Summon be usefull this round? If not, can i spent another crow and an action of Tara to unbury it next Round? Is Karina still alive? You need to think for karinas summon that you actually need 2 high crows. One to summon and one to unbury the summoned stuff the next round. Obedient wretch can even be fed with the lowest crows and doest need the high cards you usually wanna use for other stuff anyway. Yes, Once you summon a Student of Viscera, she becomes very usefull but shes this kind of unreliable "can be very good, when lucky" gambler-models everyone dislikes in strategic games. The same goes for the Stonebash-trigger... She went too much into the gamble-zone to be reliable even when she could be strong. PPL dislike unreliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 I wouldn't call her a model with powerful summoning. Unfortunately her summoning depends highly on good cards and the situation on the table. Several times I had to sacrifice high Crow I had reserved for her earlier as there was more precious needs for its use like hitting enemy with Tara's bomb or need to bury something with Dead Marshal. She would be a powerful summoner for her cost i.e. if she was limited to summon Guild Autopsies only but without suit needed for it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey_C Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 I like Karina. You can pretty reliably count on her summon to happen at least once a game. You just have to remember that any 9 or higher BELONGS to Karina (Tara can use her stones if needed). A full ap summoned punk zombie or student can really throw an opponent off. I deploy her so that in 2-3 walk actions she can get into cover, and that is where she stays (with Aionus I drop a 6 and she'll get there turn 1). She then uses her gun, and her ability to attack buried things. If she doesn't have any targets (and you don't have the ) worst case, she can double focus and try to summon an autopsy or drop a scheme marker for Aoinus to move around. Late game she can move and drop a schemes if needed. You can also make things near her fast and then beat them near to death, knowing that activating near Karina will kill them. Seems worth 5 points to me. Mind you I usually play the aggressive bury style and don't rely on Tara to unbury things (I usually use the Scion for that). I don't bother with doing much card counting in Malifaux but with Karina I do keep track of the highs. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Wow. IDK what I'm doing differently than you guys, but I was ready to say "well, she's fragile, which balances her out well enough," when I saw the title. What would have been better for her initially would be a cost of around 3 for a nice gun on an otherwise worthless model, since totems are often underpriced. What we got was a worthless 5 point model with a patch in the form of one of the best uses of summoning resources in the game: she summons a model at full speed and health... not anchored to a marker, not relying on death or a condition, not using a master's action, with lots of options, summoned at range, as a 0 action so she can hit & run or summon and shoot (so that's on top of a decent gun). I pretty often get in the 15SS range of summons off her, sometimes 20 or more, and those new bodies make it great for other resser spells like spare parts. I think she's a fantastic return on investment, who I'll take every game I can, unless the scenario punishes a fragile enforcer or summoning tactics. She's very often MVP for me. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fireuser Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 7 minutes ago, Mikey_C said: ... she can double focus and try to summon an autopsy ... Doesn't focus only help attack actions? Since summoning is a tactical action, focusing does nothing for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 4 minutes ago, Fireuser said: Doesn't focus only help attack actions? Since summoning is a tactical action, focusing does nothing for it. Any action can benefit from focus. It gives you positives to your duel from that action. The summoning is a simple DUEL, so will gain the positives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Well, there y'have it, Mikey. Feel like we do almost nothing the same with approaching Tara, remember a decent bit of debate last beta, but looks like there's something we completely agree on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey_C Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 45 minutes ago, SpiralngCadavr said: Well, there y'have it, Mikey. Feel like we do almost nothing the same with approaching Tara, remember a decent bit of debate last beta, but looks like there's something we completely agree on. I think we represent opposite sides of the Tara spectrum, turns out Karina's popular on both ends. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khyodee Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 I agree she is a solid totem with her 0 point upgrade fix. I made the same mistake of thinking she isn't worth it unless she is summoning at least a punk zombie, but having Tara drop off a Crooligan turn 2 midfield (even if slow) is still very good. I rarely take Tara without some methods to manipulate cards (Hannah, Sue, Scion, Big Jake) either and often take more then 1 to make it more likely to get that 9+ of crows. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Yeah, a 9 of crows is pretty cheap for putting an autopsy or crooligan just where you want it, when they cost 4 and karina is 1SS more, and I definitely tend to take a card manipulation mini with her, too. Mikey, yep, I'm interested in trying the broader burying thing/a bunch of nothing creatures like you tend to run rather than the fast generation/surgical burying I lean towards somewhere down the line, to see the other side of that sort of thing. I ran that when I was learning her but it's been a long time since I've tried that and I know I wasn't anywhere near my current game, so it's likely I wrote off things I shouldn't have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khyodee Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 1 hour ago, SpiralngCadavr said: Mikey, yep, I'm interested in trying the broader burying thing/a bunch of nothing creatures like you tend to run rather than the fast generation/surgical burying I lean towards somewhere down the line, to see the other side of that sort of thing. I ran that when I was learning her but it's been a long time since I've tried that and I know I wasn't anywhere near my current game, so it's likely I wrote off things I shouldn't have. Now I'm curious as to the style of play and lists the Mikey takes for Tara. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted February 13, 2016 Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 Tried today Tara with Karina against McMourning. Well, Karina didn't summon anything as she was expunged by the good doctor and changed into Flesh Construct at the start of turn 2. Definitely I have no luck with her... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted February 13, 2016 Report Share Posted February 13, 2016 Well, she's super-fragile, that's why she was worthless in her original role. But with a move, a ranged summon (that can come in charging), and another move, she can keep something like 15" from the action if you need her to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MR TORGUE Posted March 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 On 12/02/2016 at 7:47 PM, Khyodee said: I agree she is a solid totem with her 0 point upgrade fix. I made the same mistake of thinking she isn't worth it unless she is summoning at least a punk zombie, but having Tara drop off a Crooligan turn 2 midfield (even if slow) is still very good. I rarely take Tara without some methods to manipulate cards (Hannah, Sue, Scion, Big Jake) either and often take more then 1 to make it more likely to get that 9+ of crows. Honestly i'm still not convinced - If that upgrade was built in then i would probably take her with the other upgrade that allows card discard for sacrifice as opposed to dying - this would bring some excellent denial and activation manipulation to the field. I would love to see both 0 upgrades built into the Nothing Beast and Karina; but i know this will simply not happen and these characters will end up on the pile of the useless 'why-would-i-take-this-when-i-can-take-that-for-the-same-amount-of-points-and-its-better' models... ..wow i appear pessimistic there... I like malifaux; honest! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dropdeadcriminal Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 I think the Nothing Beast is great. I don't know why you are so down on him. Even if the Void Shield was built in, I still would not pay the 1ss for Voiceless Words. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpiralngCadavr Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 The Nothing Beast is probably a point overpriced and fairly difficult to use. IDK about voiceless words, unless spamming void wretches pretty hard, I can't see how it would be worth it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeleteAccount Posted March 15, 2016 Report Share Posted March 15, 2016 Nothing Beast is frankly crap unless you go for the discard your hand crew and if you do that, the nothing beast and void wretches become better at the cost of everything else being worse. He is great as a high stated model that targets Wp, but his horrible damage track means he needs to focus to put a dent on stuff and so anything with Hard to Wound will shut him down hard. The shield does certainly help him a lot though, but it's still a hard sell, specially with stuff like Lazarus, Rusty or Strongarm in similar cost ranges. Karina is mostly a walking upgrade, the rest of her card has no redeemable qualities whatsoever but her summon can be huge if you manage to get 1 or 2 high crows. I do feel that summoning an autopsy or crooligan is mostly a waste since the crooligan can't interact, both suck in combat and both models are only one 2 damage hit away of being killed outright when they get buried. If you really want guild autopsies, play Tara as a Resser with Spare Parts, she is amazing with that and the autopsies do a lot of work when you can get multiple in a single turn and at full life. Things change if you can get a Punk Zombie on the table though (or relevant student), one of those bastards flurrying where you needed are game changers outright and the flexibility of Karina moving out of protection to run and drop one of those is probably worth the cost of admission. She is still a model flawed in every sense of the word and who lives in extremes, it just so happens that her 0 upgrade extreme has such a win big clause built into it that it's worth going for it. Fluffwise though, Karina is outright awesome, which is another reason why it annoys me soooo much how bad she is. As for alternatives, a malifaux child can always help you unbury models outside of Tara's cycle and is pretty cheap, so definitely a worthy substitute. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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