Dear Wyrd

[Rathnard]

36 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

Have you tried liquid green stuff (also by GW, incidentally) - I've heard great things about its ability to fill gaps. 

I have. It fills the gaps alright, but it also shrinks after drying. So you basically have to over-fill the gap and scrape off the excess after drying...assuming you don't need to add even more to refill the gap again. 

[nunorod]

Don't use liquid green stuff... It doesn't work for joints too noticeable. The LGS shrinks and shows the gap all over. It creates a weird texture on the zone apapplied and files poorly. Putty that dissolves in nail polish remover like Squadrons White putty is much better. You can dilute it, apply it with brush, and files better. But I guess it depends on the level of perfection you want.

As for the discussion at hand. Improvement by a brand, product, etc is always expected, so I also expect the joints, details, etc to keep improving. But in a marketing there is such thing as a target audience/profile, and a brand can't be everywhere. One of the probable reasons Wyrd is growing is because they are catering for their audience, so they are doing something right. Their miniatures is what makes Wyrd tick for me, their poses etc, even if it means creating some difficulties in assembly.

I do agree functionality is important, so I do expect that some details keep improving (like the really small joints or one foot poses) but I don't expect them to change their designs or the uniqueness of their miniatures. And that's a key word here, uniqueness. Targeting a really specific profile, and have uniqueness makes a nice combo for sales and marketing.

But, I agree, improvements and listening/responding to problems is always necessary.

 

 

[Carter]

 

30 minutes ago, Rathnard said:

I have. It fills the gaps alright, but it also shrinks after drying. So you basically have to over-fill the gap and scrape off the excess after drying...assuming you don't need to add even more to refill the gap again. 

 

1 hour ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

Have you tried liquid green stuff (also by GW, incidentally) - I've heard great things about its ability to fill gaps. Never tried myself though, green stuff is annoying but I get bucketloads of it for a few dollars and I use it to make bases, so I figure I might as well use it to fill gaps.

 

23 minutes ago, nunorod said:

Don't use liquid green stuff... It doesn't work for joints too noticeable. The LGS shrinks and shows the gap all over. It creates a weird texture on the zone apapplied and files poorly. Putty that dissolves in nail polish remover like Squadrons White putty is much better. You can dilute it, apply it with brush, and files better. But I guess it depends on the level of perfection you want.

Thanks for all input, will stop in at lgs on way home and pick up some stuff to mess with and try out.

[Math Mathonwy]

7 hours ago, solkan said:

"Let them play Guild." - Marie Antoinette, upon hearing of the difficult to assemble models.

 

But those are horribly static and boring poses and the models look like lumps of featureless molten plastic.

Or do they?

 

[RaguRagla]

Just got into the game but let me add my two cents.

The witchlings are the perfect example of how awesome a 1 piece mini can look. Coming from GW games I appreciated the 'super dymanic' poses Rackham offered when Confrontation was hot. Obviously some of the Malifaux minis reach new heights when it comes to dynamic poses and thats a good thing overall. But personally I'm very much in the same boat as Omenbringer.

I originally planned to start out with a Misaki crew, but after unboxing and later realizing that there is not even an assembly instruction online, I was rather frustrated. I am also not looking forward to alligning the Samurai Gatling guns and stuff like that. I'll do fine in the end, but I will probably get angry in the process of getting there...

What really upsets me though is stuff like Yamaziko's right arm. There's no way for an average painter like me to avoid a very visible gap where you have to glue on her right arm. Also in that same kit, cutting off and cleaning the Yari is a real pain. Allow me to add an image I googled to show you what I mean:

 

Another example would be the 'Lost Love' miniature from the Kirai box (which I then built instead of Misaki's). The model comes in four parts, of which one is a single piece of hair (!). It's so tiny and annoying to clean/glue... it really upset me. This could easily have been a two-piece sprue.

Then again, you only need a few minis so at least it's bearable. The minis are great and all, but I think there is still room for improvement.

 

[LunarSol]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

But those are horribly static and boring poses and the models look like lumps of featureless molten plastic.

Or do they?

 

One piece minis can look great, but if you do a bunch of them you start noticing the limitations.  The planar effect it creates gets very noticeable, particular when it comes to leg positions.  Even on the Stalkers, its a little weird if you really look at the middle guy how well aligned his swords are.

[Math Mathonwy]

Just now, LunarSol said:

One piece minis can look great, but if you do a bunch of them you start noticing the limitations.  The planar effect it creates gets very noticeable, particular when it comes to leg positions.  Even on the Stalkers, its a little weird if you really look at the middle guy how well aligned his swords are.

True, but the effect is pretty easy to break with just a couple of things that align orthogonally. So maybe three pieces per mini as a happy medium?  

[LunarSol]

Just now, Math Mathonwy said:

True, but the effect is pretty easy to break with just a couple of things that align orthogonally. So maybe three pieces per mini as a happy medium?  

I think there's a good middle ground somewhere between 1 and 22 or whatever some of these things get up to.

[solkan]

I don't know.  I'd still rather assemble a dozen piece plastic model (using plastic cement) than assemble a six piece metal one (using pinning, green stuff and super glue).

[tmod]

4 hours ago, Carter said:

 

 

 

Thanks for all input, will stop in at lgs on way home and pick up some stuff to mess with and try out.

Squadron and Liquid GS both have their uses, but standard gap filling is not it for either of them! What you want is somerthing that cures slightly softer than plastic (Squadron/LGS are both a little on the soft side) for easy filing, has a slight ability to dissolve plastic so the blend becomes unnoticeable (plastic glue does this to some degree naturally, squadron does it as well, lgs does not), is easy to get into the cracks (squadron is not, lgs works if thinned with water), does not crack (squadron is pretty bad here) and does absolutely not shrink (both are bad at this!). Liquid GS is good for altering the surface texture of a mini (especially metal), and for minute hairline cracks (in many layers), and not much else. Squadron is a decent putty for metal minis, with being single component being it's only real advantage over milliput. Automotive fillers are similar but better at this...

What you want for plastic gap filling is mr. Hobby's Mr. Dissolved Putty. It's a jar with a rather unremarkable polystyrene based single component putty (Mr. Putty) very similar to Vallejo's Plastic Putty, but with a twist. It's dissolved in a thinner (Mr. Thinner, sigh...) containing the same solvents used in poly cement. Thus it will bond better to the plastic, and create seamless joints. It shrinks little, and because the hardness it files very easily once completely dry. Jars are easy to come by on eBay, and are cheap. Never leave with lid off, always shake AND stirr before use, apply with a toothpick and file with very fine sandpaper or filing sticks. No gaps, no joints, no cracks, only smooth surfaces! Doesn't really work as well with resin/metal/PVC (not tried PVC yet myself, though) due to different hardness, and incompatibility of the solvent...

[tomjoad]

I think complaints about the seams are valid, but I still don't care for all the complaints about the many many pieces, and I really don't like the dude who called me a liar, but you don't see me starting a million threads here or on AWP about it.

[-Loki-]

19 hours ago, Rathnard said:

I have. It fills the gaps alright, but it also shrinks after drying. So you basically have to over-fill the gap and scrape off the excess after drying...assuming you don't need to add even more to refill the gap again. 

This is how I've used it. It helps that it's very sift even when dried, so you can just use a funger to rub the excess off while leaving the gap filled. I used a whole heap of it gap filling my Mature Nephilim. All dried up now though so I'll need another for when I start on Chompy.

[Omenbringer]

On 2/22/2016 at 1:02 AM, Sordid Strumpet said:

The technology exists as shown by forge world, but to be fair the best forge world models are basically Wyrd average.

Not sure if you are kidding or not but I couldn't disagree more. The Forgeworld models demonstrate an insane level of detail from the smallest pieces like the world eaters shoulder pads (which actually detail the planet in the toothy maw) to the gigantic Bloodthirster which is simply breathtaking (and also ridiculously detailed). About the only model that Wyrd has produced in plastic that could reasonably stand against Games Workshops Warhammer Fantasy Lords and Heros (or the Age of Sigmar Heros) is the Dark Carnival Coryphee. This isn't really a criticism of Wyrd simply an admission that when it comes to plastics, Games Workshop has more than a bit of a leg up on them.

On 2/22/2016 at 8:32 AM, RaguRagla said:

Just got into the game but let me add my two cents.

The witchlings are the perfect example of how awesome a 1 piece mini can look. Coming from GW games I appreciated the 'super dymanic' poses Rackham offered when Confrontation was hot. Obviously some of the Malifaux minis reach new heights when it comes to dynamic poses and thats a good thing overall. But personally I'm very much in the same boat as Omenbringer.

I originally planned to start out with a Misaki crew, but after unboxing and later realizing that there is not even an assembly instruction online, I was rather frustrated. I am also not looking forward to alligning the Samurai Gatling guns and stuff like that. I'll do fine in the end, but I will probably get angry in the process of getting there...

What really upsets me though is stuff like Yamaziko's right arm. There's no way for an average painter like me to avoid a very visible gap where you have to glue on her right arm. Also in that same kit, cutting off and cleaning the Yari is a real pain. Allow me to add an image I googled to show you what I mean:

 

Another example would be the 'Lost Love' miniature from the Kirai box (which I then built instead of Misaki's). The model comes in four parts, of which one is a single piece of hair (!). It's so tiny and annoying to clean/glue... it really upset me. This could easily have been a two-piece sprue.

Then again, you only need a few minis so at least it's bearable. The minis are great and all, but I think there is still room for improvement.

 

I actually consider the Witchlings to be a fare compromise in terms of dynamism and functionality. Or you could do what Math suggests:

On 2/22/2016 at 9:28 AM, Math Mathonwy said:

the effect is pretty easy to break with just a couple of things that align orthogonally.

Introduce two cuts at the shoulder of the Witchlings and they could easily be made less flat.

Models like Yamaziko with the infamous gap are just bad designs. Willing to cut them a husk on that one due to it being one of their first attempts in plastic, however choosing to have the Copy Cat Killer perched gingerly on his thin and delicate scissors really irks me and is entirely inexcusable.

 

[Nexus]

19 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

This isn't really a criticism of Wyrd simply an admission that when it comes to plastics, Games Workshop has more than a bit of a leg up on them.

The Forgeworld stuff may be a little bit better than Wyrd, but the regular GW plastics (even the modern Age of Sigmar stuff) are pretty equivalent to the best that Wyrd does.   For example, Death Marshalls are easily as good as the best that GW currently has.  
Since I prefer Wyrd's style, I'd even give them the leg up.  (but that's more personal taste)

[Sordid Strumpet]

@OmenbringerSorry, I meant finecast, not forge world  

As for the AOS characters - some of them (especially the dwarf ones) are nice, but the goldie-space marine stuff is really light on detail and they have the gall to charge $50 per model for it or more.

Some Wyrd stuff like Johan is low on detail too, but then you get things like the showgirls, Gracie and so on which are packed with detail and easily as good as any of the most expensive things GW makes. All in my opinion, of course

[tmod]

55 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

@OmenbringerSorry, I meant finecast, not forge world  

As for the AOS characters - some of them (especially the dwarf ones) are nice, but the goldie-space marine stuff is really light on detail and they have the gall to charge $50 per model for it or more.

Some Wyrd stuff like Johan is low on detail too, but then you get things like the showgirls, Gracie and so on which are packed with detail and easily as good as any of the most expensive things GW makes. All in my opinion, of course

I agree on the AoS vs everything else thing here. The AoS plastics are NOT terribly detailed, and most is less impressive than a lot of Wyrd stuff. A lot easier to put together though, and a lot fewer parts. FW resin is a different story, but then again, resin is a completely different medium. FW is not the best resin brand out there either, but quality is still very impressive...

 

[Omenbringer]

Games Workshops pricing scheme is atrocious to say the least. The major reason I never really got into their large scale games.

I might concede a bit on the basic GW models (those that are intended to be ranked in large numbers) but that is why I qualified the statement with restricting the pool to Heroes and Lords maybe even going down as far as what would be considered elites. Probably the fairest comparison piece would be the Lord-Celestant from the Age of Sigmar line (compare him to say Ototo). It is very well detailed, reasonably dynamic, and best of all easy to assemble without delicate connections or visible gaps. GW's compromise choice was in realistic proportioning. We will just have to agree to disagree on Wyrd's best plastic models (the DC Coryphee and the Whiskey Golem) compared to GW's (Nagash, the Coven Throne or even the River Trolls).

Once again this isn't really a ding on Wyrd, it is simply an admission that GW has had decades of a head start in producing plastic kits. Love them or hate them (definitely the more popular of the two options), GW does produce fine kits and I am sure as Wyrd continues to produce kits they will improve them substantially. Keep in mind GW also has the advantage of owning their own production facilities (unless this has changed recently) as opposed to outsourcing to a third party.

[Sordid Strumpet]

Oh I agree, in terms of assembly and making gorgeous large kits and compatible kits (space marine kits are amazing for conversions, but my favourite is the mortis engine), GW outclasses Wyrd by a long shot. What I'd really like to see is what Wyrd could make with the same resources at their disposal as GW.

[tmod]

7 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

Games Workshops pricing scheme is atrocious to say the least. The major reason I never really got into their large scale games.

I might concede a bit on the basic GW models (those that are intended to be ranked in large numbers) but that is why I qualified the statement with restricting the pool to Heroes and Lords maybe even going down as far as what would be considered elites. Probably the fairest comparison piece would be the Lord-Celestant from the Age of Sigmar line (compare him to say Ototo). It is very well detailed, reasonably dynamic, and best of all easy to assemble without delicate connections or visible gaps. GW's compromise choice was in realistic proportioning. We will just have to agree to disagree on Wyrd's best plastic models (the DC Coryphee and the Whiskey Golem) compared to GW's (Nagash, the Coven Throne or even the River Trolls).

Once again this isn't really a ding on Wyrd, it is simply an admission that GW has had decades of a head start in producing plastic kits. Love them or hate them (definitely the more popular of the two options), GW does produce fine kits and I am sure as Wyrd continues to produce kits they will improve them substantially. Keep in mind GW also has the advantage of owning their own production facilities (unless this has changed recently) as opposed to outsourcing to a third party.

Not trying to bring GW down either, they do indeed produce some technically very nice kits (increasingly of a rather weird aesthetic, but tastes doesn't matter for kit quality/detail level) and they tend to be very easy to put together. What I was trying to challenge (sort of) is the claim they are in a league of their own. They aren't.

Before digital sculpting they did have a lot fixed advantages over any competition. They had the best sculptors in the world, the best casters in the world, and the best distribution in the world. You may not have liked their style, but they had a head start on quality versus pretty much everyone. Digital sculpting have been a revolution, in that it's a much more generic technique. This means that you don't need to hire from the very small pool of specific miniature soldiers scultors, but many more designers have the skills needed to produce basically the same quality sculpts. GW use Z-brush like everyone else! This also means that you can use factories set up for any kind of plastic production, greatly diminishing the comparative advantage of have everything in-house.

This has been a great equaliser when it comes to sculpting quality, with some one-man operations on kickstarter being able to beat quality and detail of the great GW. They tend to struggle competing with ease of assembly and production logistics though, and you tend to get issues like The Great Gremlin Delay debacle a few years back, the probably-not-to-scale-but-to-expensive-to-fix Nekima and the like...

[Carter]

I think the "quality" is in the eye of the beholder I much prefer the aesthetic of wyrd models so believe the sculpts to be better and the only area where GW have an "advantage" is in models ease of construction/assembly. Don't get me wrongf I love Space marines as much as the next man but I really don't think there is a huge gulf between the 2 productions that some have suggested.

[Sordid Strumpet]

There are some objective basics to determine quality, like how many mold lines there are and whether they run straight down the middle of the model's face. Ease of assembly and gaps beween pieces is another one. GW is very good on those to be fair (but at the price you pay, they better be). Older Wyrd plastics gaps in ridiculous places, but recently they've done some very clever things hiding them, like with Colette's box.

How crisp the details are is another one. And Wyrd really knocks that one out of the park when they choose to - my gremlins have belt loops for crying out loud, and even the holes in the belt ar there, and every single strap on Gracie has a buckle.

[tmod]

13 hours ago, Sordid Strumpet said:

There are some objective basics to determine quality, like how many mold lines there are and whether they run straight down the middle of the model's face. Ease of assembly and gaps beween pieces is another one. GW is very good on those to be fair (but at the price you pay, they better be). Older Wyrd plastics gaps in ridiculous places, but recently they've done some very clever things hiding them, like with Colette's box.

How crisp the details are is another one. And Wyrd really knocks that one out of the park when they choose to - my gremlins have belt loops for crying out loud, and even the holes in the belt ar there, and every single strap on Gracie has a buckle.

That's the thing, if one is to talk about quality at all one must try to divorce it from subjective aesthetics and tastes, otherwise it becomes meaningless.

I hate the look of the new sigmarines, but can appreciate the build quality (ease of assembly) wich is great, level of detail which is ok (worse than typical Wyrd, but not bad), and dynamics which is horrible for most of them (I planned to use a few as statues, but had to abandon the idea due to bad poses).

Similarly the Khorne guys have more detail than signarines (the ones I've seen at least), but most is thin relief on the main parts (stuff hanging from belts closely next to the legs, etc) whereas Wyrd tend to include these as separate pieces. Wyrd's approach results in objectively more detailes sculpts (higher detail quality), but more less robust with pieces sticking out more (poorer build quality) and much more work in assembly. There are several reasons to prefer either GW's style or Wyrd's style, but not because GW make higher quality kits with more detail overall. It's just a different approach to the trade off between realistic looks on one hand, and robustness and ease of assembly on the other.

I mentioned that I don't like the new AoS aesthetics much, but I've still gound occasion to study them closer. I'm using the unbooted Bloodreaver body as a starting point for a heavily mutated possessed for our group's Mordheim revival. As finished minis they're not great (and horribly out of scale!), but as a basis for a demon-possessed small giant they fit the bill perfectly! Heavily converted cultists from Dark Vengeance and frostgrave models fill out the rest of the warband...

[RaguRagla]

I guess there are lots of people starting out with Malifaux who have a background from GW, so it's normal that you would compare the two.

When it comes to assembly, I certainly prefer GW. They do have kits that are annoying to put together, but IMHO it's nothing compared to some of the things Wyrd puts out. You certainly don't see threads pop up in forums where people complain about having a really hard time getting their kits together. Their "harder" stuff - like some of the Harlequins, or maybe Dark Eldar - is still easier to put together than some rank and file Gremlins.

Then again, an Eversor Assassin costs about as much as any of the Riders and you certainly dont get more plastic or 'better details' for the price. The Riders especially look awesome and come in way fewer parts than one would expect, so why should that not be possible for infantry models?

It's clear that you need a certain amount of parts to achive stuff like the Necropunks, or having a couple of arrows sticking out of Izamu, but i guess something like an Onyro could be done in 4 pieces with pretty much no loss in overall details.

But then again, you don't need 10 or 20 of those models so it's bearable. Still, I think it's fair to point the finger at something which can be improved to make everybody happier

[Omenbringer]

On 2/24/2016 at 4:13 AM, Sordid Strumpet said:

There are some objective basics to determine quality, like how many mold lines there are and whether they run straight down the middle of the model's face. Ease of assembly and gaps beween pieces is another one. GW is very good on those to be fair (but at the price you pay, they better be). Older Wyrd plastics gaps in ridiculous places, but recently they've done some very clever things hiding them, like with Colette's box.

I agree Wyrd is getting better in a lot of areas.

As this thread points out (and many others that have proceeded it, and likely many that will follow it) there are areas where Wyrd needs to improve substantially, the "cuts" are the major one. If there is one thing that I have seen over the years supporting Wyrd and promoting their products, they do follow these threads (even if they dont post in them). They may not always be quick to act but eventually they do (the scaling issues are much less prevalent than they were). The key is in presenting the opinions, both the "everything is all right" ones and the "sky is falling" ones. As I have said in other similar "complaint" threads, any company that surrounds themselves with only "yes man" that tell them only how great they are while never mentioning the turds, is likely doomed.

Quote

How crisp the details are is another one. And Wyrd really knocks that one out of the park when they choose to - my gremlins have belt loops for crying out loud, and even the holes in the belt ar there, and every single strap on Gracie has a buckle.

While I will agree that Wyrd does make an effort to include these "details" I disagree a bit in the "quality" of those details. Gracie for example is not what I would consider a particularly well detailed model. Sure she has plenty of decorative accouterments, but the quality of detail is not great (though crisp is probably a better description) or consistent across even that model. Most of the detail is rounded and indistinct (look for example at the pan and grate armor on her left side as compared to the buckle on the saddle bag (or even the buckle on the under bag).

(thanks to Gmort for such wonderful images btw.

Some of this is attributable to the issues/ difficulties with in-cuts in plastic models, however GW has found a way. Take a look at the sprue shots of this model here. The detail is much "crisper" with significantly less rounding. Gracie was one of Wyrd's early plastic models, however you see it in even in the newer kits, such as this one of a Flying Monkey from the Dark Carnival Set.

Soft detail where you would expect crisp in the wings, especially the metal "feathers". This particular model also has the dreaded connection running through the face, though is a bit more manageable due to the monkeys expression.

Again GW has a few decades of plastics experience on Wyrd and has their own production facilities. What I am interested in however (especially in regards to Tmod's post above) is if GW is in fact still producing their own product or if they are now using a third party as most of the industry seems to be doing. I had heard a store owner mention in passing that some GW kits (particularly the terrain kits) are being outsourced now. Either way the advantage for Wyrd is that they dont have to invent the techniques anymore, they just have to learn them, and that is always faster than the former. In time, Wyrd Plastics may likely outshine GW's product, but right now they are learning how to do that. The maddening obstacle is having to work thru a third party intermediary to do that. At least Wyrd's first forays into plastic were better than Privateers

[tmod]

17 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Again GW has a few decades of plastics experience on Wyrd and has their own production facilities. What I am interested in however (especially in regards to Tmod's post above) is if GW is in fact still producing their own product or if they are now using a third party as most of the industry seems to be doing. I had heard a store owner mention in passing that some GW kits (particularly the terrain kits) are being outsourced now.

I believe they tried to outsource stuff some years ago, but stopped due to panic over pirated copies... I might have this wrong, but it does seem to fit in with GW's thinking the last decade.

Also remember that it's a long while since GW had to develop technology themselves, hips plastic production is a pretty big industry, miniatures notwithstanding... There probably was a bit of a learning curve turning hand-sculpted masters into moulds, but GW has been using digital design for some time, with the software available to anyone. I'm not going to pretend there's not a learning curve as to what transfers well from screen to plastic, and the skill of the sculptor is as important as ever. But was is new is that the know-how is more available. CAD is a medium I suspect most designers are educated in using, green stuff and toothpicks is rather more niche. Similarly, there are probably thousands of companies worldwide struggling with how to transfer the small, detailed CAD sculpts into plastic. This means there are going to be solitions on the market for this as well!

Oh, and great post by the way!