What if they changed Belles?

[Math Mathonwy]

28 minutes ago, MEGAHORSE said:

...lol I actually have. And none of them are about belles  Might wanna do some research yourself bud

OK, did some research. You have started seven topics on these forums (two this year, one of which was on the Resser subforum). Does this somehow invalidate what I said? If you consider this topic a "dead horse" and wish to talk about something else than the possible implications of changing Belles as outlined in the OP, start a topic on those things you wish to discuss. Whether you have done so in the past or not is sorta irrelevant.

28 minutes ago, MEGAHORSE said:

Back on topic. As others have stated, I'm sure Wyrd knows about the abuses that pushes, places, free walks, etc do to the game and the NPE some can experience from it. Anna seems to be this fix. Unlike Taelor (A supposed silver bullet to summoning), her pulse doesnt need to be activated, nor does she need to charge the target. Sure, Lure still has uses outside of that, but it's not a complete hoser! 

You kinda skipped the dissenting views on Anna being a great counter without addressing them.

[solkan]

8 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Huh? So I should not engage people about the thing I wish to talk about if I limit the thing I wish to talk about?

If you're genuinely interested in finding out what other people's opinions are, the answer to that question would be "Yes," given the effective definition of 'engage' that you're using.

[Math Mathonwy]

Just now, solkan said:

If you're genuinely interested in finding out what other people's opinions are, the answer to that question would be "Yes," given the effective definition of 'engage' that you're using.

I'm afraid that I do not understand.

I tried to frame the conversation in the thread to be about what people thought would change if Belles were nërfed as outlined in the OP. The discussion about whether they should or should not be nërfed is something that has been discussed at great length in other topics. I was more interested in talking about what would change.

And I think that, e.g., Adran's, Astrella's, Fetid Strumpet's, lusciousmccabe's, daniello_s's, and oryxwild's input was very interesting. I didn't agree with all of them but I'm not sure why I would be needed to (in fact, agreeing with all of them would be weird since they had essentially opposite view points).

[MEGAHORSE]

21 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

OK, did some research. You have started seven topics on these forums (two this year, one of which was on the Resser subforum). Does this somehow invalidate what I said? If you consider this topic a "dead horse" and wish to talk about something else than the possible implications of changing Belles as outlined in the OP, start a topic on those things you wish to discuss. Whether you have done so in the past or not is sorta irrelevant.

You kinda skipped the dissenting views on Anna being a great counter without addressing them.

Yeah, it does, you said be the change I want to be. According to you, I have to be that change, I made those topics, but then you go and call it irrelevant. So how many topics do I need to create in this calendar year to be sufficient for you? 4? 10? So just admit you're just wanting to put me down for criticizing your topic. Suggestion: get back on topic rather than pulling your seniority and putting me down  

Apologies for not posting 100% what you want to hear about Anna, Belles, etc. I wasnt responding to your criticism of Anna, I was merely stating my thoughts on Anna. I havent had the chance to put her on the table, as my group is still slowly experimenting with the new masters out in plastic. I eagerly await it! Especially in the mirror match  

I'm sorry you dont find my input helpful. 

[MR TORGUE]

34 minutes ago, solkan said:

If you're genuinely interested in finding out what other people's opinions are, the answer to that question would be "Yes," given the effective definition of 'engage' that you're using.

 to all disengaging strikes 

[Rob Lo]

Guys, really?

--------------

I think the end result is that Ressers overall become weaker, when they don't need to become weaker. (They also don't need to be stronger, just to toss that out there.)  There's a lot of how other models in the faction are built that is based on the idea of what Belles bring to the table as they are now. Weakening that takes a noticeable (not overwhelming, but definitely there) bit of oomph out of the effectiveness of the faction. Would they survive, sure. I'd say the migration ressers make to other models, other strategies, and different masters within faction would be more pronounced than what arcanists went through with Metal Gamin, but in the end they'd still be serviceable on the table, shining sometimes and losing spectacularly others (not that I know anything about that part). Whatever grade you currently give them, I'd knock about 5-10% off that score when looking at the faction as a whole. 

[Math Mathonwy]

48 minutes ago, MEGAHORSE said:

Yeah, it does, you said be the change I want to be. According to you, I have to be that change, I made those topics, but then you go and call it irrelevant. So how many topics do I need to create in this calendar year to be sufficient for you? 4? 10? So just admit you're just wanting to put me down for criticizing your topic. Suggestion: get back on topic rather than pulling your seniority and putting me down  

I think you misunderstood what I meant. I meant that if this topic is not one you wish to discuss, then make new topics about things that you do wish to discuss. This has nothing to do with seniority or anything like that. You are posting here and indicating that this topic doesn't interest you (it's a "dead horse") which, to me, is a bit strange. If you feel that topic can't give anything, then why read and post to it? Why not post something that interests you? I'm not trying to put you down in any way.

48 minutes ago, MEGAHORSE said:

Apologies for not posting 100% what you want to hear about Anna, Belles, etc. I wasnt responding to your criticism of Anna, I was merely stating my thoughts on Anna. I havent had the chance to put her on the table, as my group is still slowly experimenting with the new masters out in plastic. I eagerly await it! Especially in the mirror match  

I really await Anna as well! She is one of my most eagerly awaited non-Gremlin models.

48 minutes ago, MEGAHORSE said:

I'm sorry you dont find my input helpful. 

Your input to the topic originally was one sentence ("Seamus gets hit hard"). All the rest was some kind of meta-commentary. Now you added the Anna angle but it was, again, something that had already been brought up and discussed. You didn't add to that discussion.

And that's OK! I'm not trying to shoehorn you to a specific behaviour. You are absolutely free to call this topic a "dead horse" or a vigorous penguin if you feel so inclined  I'm merely trying to shed light on my reactions.

[Fetid Strumpet]

As an aside, I'm confused, exactly how is Anna a counter to Belles? The only thing she is going to stop is very niche situations when I want to Lure my own model and that model would end the move within Anna's aura. In general, that would mean that the model (mine) that I want to lure is also REALLY close to Anna, because if my move ends outside of Anna's Aura she doesn't do anything to stop it. And in that case what exactly stops me from Luring Anna out of the way?

 

[Math Mathonwy]

Just now, Fetid Strumpet said:

As an aside, I'm confused, exactly how is Anna a counter to Belles? The only thing she is going to stop is very niche situations when I want to Lure my own model and that model would end the move within Anna's aura. In general, that would mean that the model (mine) that I want to lure is also REALLY close to Anna, because if my move ends outside of Anna's Aura she doesn't do anything to stop it. And in that case what exactly stops me from Luring Anna out of the way?

 

That is the question, isn't it? People seem to say that Anna is a silver bullet hard-counter but then don't really tell the rest of us how.

[LeperColony]

As a non-resser player, I would say that how I'd play against the belles would depend on how they were changed.  If their Ca were reduced to 6, I don't think that would alter my play much.  Six is still enough of a threat to warrant the same risk avoidance strategies I currently use.

However, if Belles had their survivability reduced, that may induce me to target them.  Currently I don't tend to attack Belles when other options present themselves, since it requires so many actions to kill one.

[Dirial]

Personally, I feel the Ca8 could stay, while I'd go for 6-7 Wounds. My reasoning being a combination of Fetid's and Leper's comments: The Ca8 makes up for the ranged weaknesses in the faction, balances Seamus, and as the only thing they do it's okay if they do it well.

The resilience on the other hand, is not really needed for the model. Ressers have great resilient models, and I see little reason for Belles to be one of them. In fact, I rarely target them at all. The Lure is disruptive but not overly so while killing them is simply not worth the effort. Much rather kill a Nurse with the AP.

[SpiralngCadavr]

I'd agree with Dirial, what makes them useful is their reliability, so that should stay intact unless unintended, while their other abilities could go down.

Personally, I play them very lightly (probably less than half my resser games), so would not be hurt much by that, but also think that if they were as OP as some complain, I'd be taking them regardless of list (given that I've a fairly competitive mindset). Anecdotal of course, but still.

[CactusEmperor]

A lowering of the casting and Resurrectionists would become weaker at medium to long ranges, something they already struggle with. Of the five Resser minions that can fire at range, three (four if you count the Hanged, which you shouldn't) have a max damage of three or less, and only one can hit at greater than 10 inches (the Autopsy, which is not out in plastic yet). Combined with the lower than average walk scores (I think?), they're at a disadvantage fighting at distances greater than 8". Limiting the reliability of the Belle's casting would make it easier to abuse long range against the faction, as it becomes less likely that you will be able to engage things from the 12" and beyond range without eating an attack or two first. Further, it makes you more card reliant as you will have to cheat higher cards to get lures to go off. This makes summoners that are already very hand reliant more so, so it would put additional strain on Nicodem, Molly, and Kirai (probably not as heavily on Kirai as the other two).

I'm unsure of what effect the lowering of wounds would have, but a casting cuddle would weaken four of the Resser masters noticeably. I don't think Yan Lo would be affected terribly much. Not sure about McMourning or Tara.

[benjoewoo]

If Belles had only their wounds reduced, I don't feel people would really play them less with the masters that "like/love" belles, primarily because you don't have better alternatives. While ressers are really a melee faction, they're a melee faction centered around manipulation and being in places you don't want them to be during critical moments, e.g. Seamus back alley, punk zombie summon, etc. Belles and similar linchpin manipulation models have their resilience to allow them to do that without immediately exploding, and their resilience comes in high Wd counts plus HtW rather than armor, hard to kill, etc. Belles are the more popular models since nurses have no damage mitigation, doxies are +1SS for significantly reduced range and less consistent casts, Jakuuna is rare 1, among others. Considering the alternatives, I would still run belles with reduced wound counts because I don't have a better set of ranged manipulation that I can readily take multiples of in a crew, particularly ones with limited summoning capabilities.

I haven't really felt Belles were too hard to kill in resser v. resser games and I don't think my opponents really have either when they actually try to kill one. It generally takes 4 AP with average damage track and 3 AP with slightly better damage track. Belles are also incredibly easy to hit--as easy to hit as Seamus Df wise. Their melee is also average with a below average damage track and a trigger that doesn't really mean much--I have the feeling opponents are generally not concerned about a Ml 5 disengaging strike from a belle compared to their other actions and roles in crews.

If Belles had their Ca value reduced, I would almost certainly take Jakuuna as echoed here, and try to fill my crews with doxies for getting closer rather than pulling closer. The "avg" Wp in the game is 5, but from faction to faction that changes drastically, and abilities/actions that boost Wp generally push the current balance to a "just there" advantage. I love trying to get Undress off and slowing people, but usually I do it because I don't have better targets to lure, and I almost never use the Ml attack unless it's from Pounce. Lure is pretty much the reason you take Belles and it's really their only selling point when you consider utilizing companion reduces the activation control you may have otherwise had. 

As it is, my games regularly see the lure just beating the opponent because of flips. The Ca 8 gives me that 1-2 point buffer that lets me ensure the model I took for manipulation actually matters in the game. I rarely see myself beating my opponent's total by more than 3 when it matters, and I'm still cheating high cards because a Wp 6 stands a decent chance of winning the flip, forcing me to cheat first. If my opponent has Wp buff abilities/actions, a reduced Ca would likely mean I'm actually below the buffed Wp, and my belles are basically useless for planning purposes if I need my high cards for other purposes.

I agree about the inherent Seamus cuddle if Belles had their Ca reduced, and want to add that Sybelle's "Not Too Banged Up" upgrade becomes significantly less useful, since the Ca would not go off nearly as reliably; Seamus' already weak summoning ability moves more towards the "not useful" category, and summoners able to summon belles now face less appetizing/reduced choices because the costs for summoning a belle (at best a 6 crow and a master's AP) have more limited returns. These ripple effects would make, imo, reducing the Belle Lure Ca value a much larger cuddle than needed considering the relative strength of ressers vs. other factions and the resser faction's reliance on belles for reliable manipulation and play. 

For the above, I mostly assume the Ca is reduced from 8 to 6. From 8 to 7 the cuddle is less pronounced, but still an issue for the same reasons because many available Wp buff abilities/actions push models to 7Wp from the 5 average, meaning you're just even on the Lure rather than have a slight advantage. 

[huntroll]

On 2016. 02. 04. at 5:16 PM, Fetid Strumpet said:

As an aside, I'm confused, exactly how is Anna a counter to Belles? The only thing she is going to stop is very niche situations when I want to Lure my own model and that model would end the move within Anna's aura. In general, that would mean that the model (mine) that I want to lure is also REALLY close to Anna, because if my move ends outside of Anna's Aura she doesn't do anything to stop it. And in that case what exactly stops me from Luring Anna out of the way?

 

Apparently she isn't. I just shouldn't write on the forums after not sleeping for days, especially without checking the books first. My bad, sorry.
 

[benjoewoo]

Played at LVO yesterday. I just want to mention I used pretty much at least 2 Lure capable models in every list and I summoned 1 belle in two of my 3 games, leaving me quite a few lure actions.

I'm posting a report of my matches later, but in my first game I made around 3 lures--didn't cast many but I failed a lot too.. In my second game I made roughly two thirds of them. In my last game I made four out of five, but they were almost all against Howard Langston.

Game one my lures were against TT Jakob Lynch, who mostly have 6+ or so Wp. There was some extra Wp on Hungy, but almost everything was a 6.

Game two was against Leveticus, and there were basically three models in front of me--Lazarus, Student of Sinew, and Howard Langston. Lazarus and Langston are 6 Wp each, and I believe the Sinew is like a 4-5? Most of the Lures went against Lazarus and Sinew to effectively kill Leveticus. Not counting waifs for the Lures, as I never tried to lure them.

Game three was against Ramos, and I think 1 Lure went onto a metal gamin and the other 4 onto Langston. 

See the report for match details if you'd like, but I didn't pull off Lures as easily as a Ca 8 would imply. In game 2 I had the additional help from Sinister Reputation on Seamus for Sinew, so that was easy, but Lazarus and Langston fro luring I would regularly fail despite the +2 Ca advantage. See what happened game 1 for all the good my belles and Jakuuna did for me. 

Also RJ on pounce damage is very....dumb (in a funny way).