FAQ - Conditions & Kill credit

[Mach_5]

Current FAQ has a blanket statement that if a model is killed by a Condition, no model or Crew counts as having made the kill.

As written this applies to conditions such as Sonnia's "Flaming Demise" and Yamaziko's/Ashigaru's "Brace" conditions; they would not receive credit for the kill.  Wondering if this is intended or an unintended side effect of resolving the scoring issues of Burning and Poison. 

[Myyrä]

It doesn't matter whether the condition says that this model suffers damage or another model suffers damage. The damage is caused by the condition either way.

Whether it is intentional or not is irrelevant.

[jonahmaul]

It is the Braced for the Charge condition causing the damage (note that both Yamaziko and Ashigaru are able to give themselves the condition) and not the model so they do not gain credit for the kill as Myyra states.  Just like the model that applies Burning/Poison/any other damaging condition would not gain the credit.

[Mach_5]

That's all I'm getting at, thanks SpiralngCadavr.  The faq is clear, I'm suggesting perhaps the answer was a bit too broad and had unintended and unnecessary consequences, and perhaps Wyrd could consider modifying it in future.

[jonahmaul]

I think it just adds in another layer of strategy to consider in missions where scoring for killing is important.

[tomjoad]

I don't know about Kaeris, but Yamaziko and Ashigaru would not be covered by thus ruling. Braced is a condition on themselves, which allows them to deal damage to a charging model. Therefore, they are doing the killing and should get the credit.

[solkan]

Current FAQ has a blanket statement that if a model is killed by a Condition, no model or Crew counts as having made the kill.

As written this applies to conditions such as Sonnia's "Flaming Demise" and Yamaziko's/Ashigaru's "Brace" conditions; they would not receive credit for the kill.  Wondering if this is intended or an unintended side effect of resolving the scoring issues of Burning and Poison. 

Lots of models attempt to kill other models by applying Poison +X or Burning +X.  If arsons and poisoners don't get credit for their indirect kills, why should Sonnia or Yamaziko get credit?

[Mach_5]

Because they aren't indirect.  They put the condition on themselves and deal damage under certain circumstances.   There's really no difference to what Sonnia's condition does and a fire gamin exploding, and yamaziko/ashigaru are dealing damage with their physical weapons, it's just been made a condition to simplify/clarify timing. If this faq didn't exist no one would question which model was causing the damage in these cases. The only reason it is in the faq is because of indirect, stacking, damage dealing conditions like burning and poison, and only because their rules aren't clear who should get credit once they start stacking.

[DocSchlock]

A condition does the damage, regardless of direct or indirect, which are not game-defined terms and mean nothing.

"There's really no difference to what Sonnia's condition does and a fire gamin exploding"

There is a distinction: one is a Condition and one is an Ability, regardless of the mechanical effects on the game itself. This is told to you by the rules of the game, and we don't get to ignore this difference because "they do the same thing."

Condition kills don't count for a crew.

Edited September 9, 2015 by DocSchlock
missed a word

[SpiralngCadavr]

I 100% agree with Mach_5's interpretation and reasoning. I'd always assumed that those were casualties to standardized language, since there's a big difference between someone getting poisoned, running around fighting for a bit, then keeling over and someone running into a defensively held spear. And many of those conditions, other than being conditions, are like passive stuff other models have.

However, RAW is RAW. For now, it appears to be what it is, and we (I at least) can hope that Wyrd makes a more elegant solution in light of the discussion here down the line...

[solkan]

That's all I'm getting at, thanks SpiralngCadavr.  The faq is clear, I'm suggesting perhaps the answer was a bit too broad and had unintended and unnecessary consequences, and perhaps Wyrd could consider modifying it in future.

And I disagree.  Lighting someone on fire for Burning +10 is just as direct as Sonnia's Burning Demise, or throwing someone off of a building.

No one gets credit for conditions because of complications like stacking, but also because of complications like models that can move conditions from one model to another, and the fact that a model can have multiple conditions on it.  A model could have 4 hit points left, be Burning +2, Poison +1 and have Flaming Demise on it.

So you either end up with a huge, complicated system of assigning credit, or you go with something simple like "No one gets credit."  And Wyrd chose the simple but harsh option.

Edit:  And it's not acceptable to produce a system where the simple cases get assigned credit but the complicated cases don't, because then you get into accusations of exploits when people start throwing on extra conditions to "rob" a model of credit by changing to the complicated system.  Even something based on the order conditions are applied or resolved in would be subject to manipulation.  "You just put Flaming Demise on my model.  I'm first player, so I'm going to load it up with Flaming so my effect kills it first."

Edited September 9, 2015 by solkan

[SpiralngCadavr]

Actually, a really simple one would be something along the lines of the player who doesn't own the dying model gets to pick if effects from both sides have been applied. The problem is usually it being easily exploitable for a player to hurt his own models to prevent victory, and otherwise it's usually a mistake if you kill your own guy. Not saying that's perfect, but I think there's probably something out there that would mostly allow credit and prevent gaming.

Edited September 9, 2015 by SpiralngCadavr

[santaclaws01]

The best way to fix this would be for Braced to be an ability instead of a condition. That way the rule with being killed by conditions still applies and a model with Braced will still get the credit for killing a model that dies because of Braced.

[Bengt]

The best way to fix this would be for Braced to be an ability instead of a condition. That way the rule with being killed by conditions still applies and a model with Braced will still get the credit for killing a model that dies because of Braced.

If it's an ability it will be always on, which makes it a lot better. If you are just saying that the current action should apply an ability rather a condition it's still a bit better since it can't be removed.

One could change the wording on Braced and Flaming demise to say "this model deals X damage" instead of saying that the offenders suffer damage. Or add a line about them getting credit, like The Firestarter | I did it!. That is if the intent really is for these things to count.

[Mach_5]

I'm not expecting an errata, it's certainly not worth reprinting cards over.  I wonder if changing the FAQ to simply apply to Burning and poison would be enough rather than all conditions? Conditions that themselves deal damage is pretty rare, I haven't found any other than those already mentioned, though I haven't gone through every model closely.

[jonahmaul]

I think there are probably enough faction specific conditions to make it messy though.  I got given the condition by a Black Blood Shaman where you take damage at the end of the turn in a game yesterday for example and I'm sure there's more.  The way Wyrd have opted to rule on it makes it much cleaner and simpler without having to add exceptions.  And adds another layer of tactics as I've already stated.  Thematically it certain doesn't make sense as what else is it dealing damage other than the big ass stick in their hands!

[santaclaws01]

The best way to fix this would be for Braced to be an ability instead of a condition. That way the rule with being killed by conditions still applies and a model with Braced will still get the credit for killing a model that dies because of Braced.

If it's an ability it will be always on, which makes it a lot better. If you are just saying that the current action should apply an ability rather a condition it's still a bit better since it can't be removed.

One could change the wording on Braced and Flaming demise to say "this model deals X damage" instead of saying that the offenders suffer damage. Or add a line about them getting credit, like The Firestarter | I did it!. That is if the intent really is for these things to count.

Nothing saying they can't gain an ability until the end of the turn. Also that's true, it might not be the intent for the model with Braced to get the kill credit.

[Dirial]

Nothing saying they can't gain an ability until the end of the turn.

Clockwork Traps do, for example. It's a question of intent, not ability, I agree.

[Joel]

Just to add a little fuel...

look at black blood.  It exists in the game as both an ability (nephilim commonly have it) and a condition (bestowed by the black blood shaman).  Black blood (ability) kills count, black blood (condition) kills don't.  

Just saying.

[santaclaws01]

Just to add a little fuel...

look at black blood.  It exists in the game as both an ability (nephilim commonly have it) and a condition (bestowed by the black blood shaman).  Black blood (ability) kills count, black blood (condition) kills don't.  

Just saying.

Then there's the whole thing with Black Blood Pustule.

[Bengt]

Guild Lawyer can give out Fees +1 that does damage.

Envy Obsessed condition also deals damage.

Edited September 10, 2015 by Bengt
Added Envy