Could some kind soul spoil the Blood Wretches?

[Math Mathonwy]

As the title says, basically. I know some people got the starter from Gencon and I would really appreciate it if someone could spill the beans about them as they seem like the cheap beatstick-style Minions I've been sorta missing from the Neverborn.

Pretty please with a sugar on top

Oh, and if someone wishes to spoil the Scion as well, that would be nice of course.

[twilightmikasa]

I can get it to you after work, but someone is probably going to beat me to it.

[Fog]

Don't have the cards handy but here's what I remember from running demos all weekend.

Wretch: def 6, wp 5, ML 6, 2/3/5, + to charge attack flips, immune to pulse, 5 points

Scion: def 4, wp 5, 8 points, black blood, + to all non damage flips when at 6 wounds or less, friendly models activating within x can discard 2 and end all conditions, ml5 3/4/5?, sh5 with some blasts on the damage track, 0: friendly model takes a 1 interact

[D_acolyte]

Those actually are better then I thought they would be.

[TimH]

Yeah, the wretches may not be as good as tots for scheme running but it looks like they could put down some hurt. Scion looks to have 'competent' attacks and a pretty handy (0) action, plus depending on the wording his aura could be really good, especially in a lynch crew.

[Jeebus]

wretches also heal for 2 when they kill a model (i think its limited to enemy models, but not 100%) WD5. CG7. 

[zFiend]

They sound pretty brutal. 

[TimH]

Would someone with the cards be able to clarify the timing of the Scions aura? Specifically would the modle be able to discard cards to purge paralyse or slow before generating the AP for its activation.

[Carcosa]

If those stats are correct, not only are they brutal, but we can say "Hello Power Creep" in a definitive way.

[Bengt]

If those stats are correct, not only are they brutal, but we can say "Hello Power Creep" in a definitive way.

Dunno, unless it has a ton of wounds it doesn't seem better than a Rail Worker. It has 1 more Df and Ml, slight worse damage track, only  on charge vs Implacable ( on both duel and damage for a discard). The Rail Worker also has HtK, Armour +1, and a good Df trigger.

[TimH]

I like it. It isn't in direct competition with the various 4-5SS minions that Neverborn already have (Tots, Gups, Depleted) but is significantly cheaper than an Illuminated without knocking him off of his pedestal.

 

I might take these over the Neverborns normal fair of scheme runners from time to time but they don't sound so strong as to be an auto include.

[Math Mathonwy]

Thank you very much!

If those stats are correct, not only are they brutal, but we can say "Hello Power Creep" in a definitive way.

Compared to other 5SS beatstick-style Minions - Rail Workers, Witchling Stalkers, Crooked Men, Lightning Bugs, Freikorpsmen? I'm not seeing it. On the contrary, I think they seem a bit weak, though that Cg 7 and positive twists when Charging is nice.

At 5 Wd one Focused shot kills them straight away much of the time.

(And there's stuff like Rotten Belles, Nurses, TT Brothers and Slop Haulers at 5SS - heck, Slop Haulers are likely better beatsticks than these thanks to Bayou Two-Card and access to 3AP even if you took away the healing).

But yeah, will be trying them out for sure once I get them.

[Druso]

That Scion seems pretty, with that (0) to Interact and the Condition Removal stuff is a nice adition to several crews.

[Jeebus]

Something else worth noting, they are rare 2.

[Math Mathonwy]

Aaaaaand theres the balance

Huh? How many times do you actually use more than two of a given model (other than Arachnids and Bayous and similar summonables)? I can count such models with the fingers on one hand. I can't imagine a situation where I would take more than two Blood Wretches even if they weren't Rare 2.

[Carcosa]

Rare 2?

Then yes, I concur that you can achieve balance that way.

[Sklertic]

They look strong, but really fragile. Will be interesting to see the reports once people start playing them.

[Math Mathonwy]

Rare 2?

Then yes, I concur that you can achieve balance that way.

I realize I already commented a similar comment but I really don't understand this. They don't gain anything from swarming so it's just the model. So if it were OP, then Rare 2 would make it an auto-include at that 2 and is that somehow balanced? And since they clearly aren't OP, the Rare 2 limit doesn't do anything. Three Bloodwretches vs two Illuminated - I know what I would take!

[TimH]

Not a balance issue but I imagine wretches (and presumably Orderlies) are Rare 2 to prevent any market/need for extra cards or models when they will only be packaged in the starter box.

[Jeebus]

i was thinking the same thing. (and yes orderlies are rare 2 also.) 

[TimH]

The group I used to play with was notorious for finding ways to break games - when I see new models, my mind automatically goes to "how will someone turn this into cheese?" 

 

If something is good at two models, it would be better at three models, especially if they're cheap. That's just me.

 

So I take it you will be using changelings a lot to see if they are easy to break?

I'm going to try 6 of them with a Freikorps trapper!

[Jeebus]

spamming models like that, to me, seems to limit your options. it becomes a one trick pony as opposed to the utility a variety of models provides. 

[Math Mathonwy]

If something is good at two models, it would be better at three models, especially if they're cheap. That's just me.

This really isn't true due to several things.

First and most importantly, you need to do various things during a game of Malifaux. If you load up on a certain model, it will hamper your ability to do other stuff as no model can do it all (well, maybe Francois). Taking three Nurses would severely hamper your ability to kill and do schemes even though Nurse is IMO prolly the best thing 5SS can buy (well, Slop Haulers give them a run for their money).

Second, if the models needs resources, taking more than two can be crippling. For example, Rail Workers need to discard a card to gain bonus twists to Attack and Damage. Taking six is a very bad idea!

Third, you hamper your ability to adapt. If you take a Slop Hauler and a Lightning Bug you can lower Df when needed and ignore Armor when that is needed. If you double up on one and don't take the other you lose flexibility. If you took four Blood Wretches and then the opponent is running a list full of Ronins and other stuff you can't charge you would be a very sad camper.

So yeah, spamming models is, in the vast majority of cases, a bad idea in Malifaux. This isn't 40k where you simply identify the best unit and take as much of it as possible

[solkan]

Checking the cards in the starter box, they're all at Rare "what's in the box".

I think it came down between making all of the models mercenary so no one has to feel bad about buying the box, while trying to avoid giving people a reason to spam starter sets. 

[Carcosa]

@ Math

While I somewhat agree with your points, I am not sure if they are entirely relevant in this case.

 

In the case of nurses for example, 3 would be bad because nurses are support models. Their Ml, baring the  trigger is situational, and using take your meds can be random unless you are willing to be card intensive with them (and the best offensive trigger is on crows, which eats into your hand when crows are prized in a resser crew for masters). They are fairly slow, so they don't make good scheme runners, but they do have a good number of wounds, and a nice DF, so they are good for more defensive schemes and strats.

 

In comparison, the Wretches have the same DF, I assume a walk of 5 given the charge of 7, have solid combat skills, a self heal if they kill, immunity to pulses and a built in  on the charge. Quite simply, they are far more flexible as either scheme runners, or side beatsticks to finish the job started by a more expensive model.

 

Second Point, they don't need side resources like nurses or rail workers, so there is simply no comparison there, they are all built in and ready to rock.

 

Third point, adaptability. To be honest, I find them very adaptable as I have already said. They don't suffer from the drawbacks of other 5SS models such as needing additional cards (Nurse, Railworker) or Additional support pieces (Guild guard), or having a set kind of role (Nurse, GG), so sure I see them as adaptable to the needs of a player at any given point in time. If I could take 3, I probably would based -purely- on their flexibily and good stat line. Would I do that for every game? possibly not but I would sure as hell -consider- it.