All the things you want to soapbox and/or have debate about in Malifaux

[Dirial]

As for the Privilege discussion from Dirial, yes, I agree that the privileged one has to lend a hand (which is different from self loathing, I´m quite tired of white guilt), but the reality is you can´t really expect the privileged to man up since that is the comfort zone, it´s nice and cozy and won´t really change without some external stimuli, simply because it´s nicer and comfier that way. Basically, a shift won´t happen because big Bobby one day woke up and discovers he´s been behaving like a twat for the last couple of years, it will come when something makes him realize that, and sadly that tends to come from the side looking for the change. And it´s not just that, it has to get big Bobby to understand while using pretty soft interactions, because if you go full hostile (saving some distances obviously, bad touch or degradation DEMANDS full hostility), he will become hostile himself and privilege and group dynamics will do the rest.

 

Moral of the story, it´s hard to change people, specially when they belong to the group on top of the totem pole and they have a group constantly validating their actions, no matter how hurtful they may be for others.

 

You are of course correct.

 

The issue on these forums is that the point were Bobby has been told his behavior isn't the most decent (whatever slang term you want to apply) has been passed. Bobby has been told. Now what does he do? Does he (and I mean me) fight against the downtrodden to keep up his feeling of superiority and entitlement? Or does he lend said hand?

 

I may not always be successful, and it's really hard to notice some of my own privilege-driven behavior because it's so ingrained, but I know which answer I want to give.

[DeleteAccount]

Matt Taylor apologizes Shirt

Benedict Cumberbatch apologizes "colored"

Kaley Cuoco apologizes she's not a feminist

 

You know, you should be prepared to apologize from the start, it's just a matter of time!

 

That's up for another interesting branch of the question, in which words are made taboo because speakers use them in negative ways. Words are blameless, bad people give words bad meanings. Words are eventually made taboo to keep alive the fear related to them (Voldemort), and let bad people continue use them in more and more offensive ways, the more taboo they become.

Wasn't "Nerd" an insult? Why isn't it an insult anymore, and nerds are proud users of this word? Isn't it because of its continuos use and refusing to receive it as an insult? Now people have no way to insult a Nerd, specifically referring to his attitudes, because that term lost all of its offensive power. You can use "Loser" or something else, but the term is rather generic, and doesn't specifically picture a Nerd and his characteristics, as much as "Nerd" does. And if people started admitting they all have been losers, they all have lost, sooner or later in their lives, "Loser" too would not be usable as an insult anymore.

Does it make sense I have to remember which one between 24 different ways of calling inhabitants of Asia, is elected by people to be insulting (when for us they are all non-offensive derivatives of indo-european words) (and I actually don't remember it!)?

IMO fear of words keeps feeding their negative power. From the anecdotes in this thread and this kind of news, looks like in some places equality and respect originate when strict rules allow so, rather than from common sense :/

Ugh, don´t remind be about the Matt Taylor fiasco... bloody hell.

 

I do agree about words having as much power as we allow them to have, but frankly, there are moments where it just isn´t worth it and it´s best to just let it die.

 

Best example is the n word in the USA, that is so ingrained into a very dark part of the country´s history and it gets people so incredibly riled up when used that it´s not worth it at all to trivialize it into being a word, it just has too much negative energy overcharging it and frankly, what do you get if it can be used again in a public environment? It´s still so full of negative connotations that isn´t really worth doing anything for it.

 

The c word probably too, used it a couple of times here in the UK and got explained that it´s very heavy duty, so I´ll outright avoid that one since it seems to have much heavier connotations than for example twat, which I will still use to call somebody a dumbass, but I do sort of agree that in this precise discussion kind of undermines my points a bit.

 

There is of course the nerd case, or words simply just changing in meaning. The Spanish slang term for gay has pretty much just become a way to call somebody a coward in a "nye nye" way and frankly, whenever I use it, the last thing that comes to my mind is "homosexual". South explained it best in one of their episodes "The F word". But again, those two examples are words that just have mutated so much that their initial meaning has been pretty much lost in conventional culture. The n word and c word on the other hand still carry their base intent and in a pretty hostile way and frankly, we loose nothing by just ignoring them.

[valhallan42nd]

I don't usually have much to say about gender politics, but I do know that when I saw the artwork that Aaron posted, I might have sworn in delight and threw money at the screen. Because that woman looked dangerous as hell, and much like the Wu Tang clan, was nothing to [mess] with.

Wyrd does a better job than most companies. I think Nathan is not wrong about men and their propensity for violence and labor, but I've also known some women who would be more than glad to break a bottle over a bar and stab you with it. Fate and the journey through the Breach, and the presence of soul stones and other eldritch powers/artifacts can have strange influences on people.

Maybe a few more models akin to that art wouldn't hurt.

[rgarbonzo]

 

From my point of view though, WHY ARE THERE NO AUSTRALIANS!!!  Racist Jerks!

 

I've also decided to paint my Colette crew black... hope I can pull it off!

Where do you think Razorspine Rattlers and Giant Mosquitos came from?

[rubbe]

few seconds on the soapbox (well, what's a soapbox??? anyway...)

 

first: there are no australians, but i do think (joking) that in the early 1900 australians were not a population, but some kind of penal colony (anybody said Mr. McTavish Dundee??). But stop, no Italians? since 1800 italians were a population of migrant, so now-a-day you can find italian bloo almost everywhere!!

 

second: now i will try to use my internet-kung-fu to post a link to a movie... a silly tenn-comedy called "100 girls" with one of the greatest take about "-ism"( racism, sexism and so on..) ...let's see if my fu works:

 

 

 

ok, i can not do that, but wow, that speech in the class about feminism, racism, everything-ism is just something i think everyone must watch at least once.

 

with a big loving smile, my two cent from tha land of pizza & mandolino

[rubbe]

a little addenda:

 

please, keep Malifaux as I do love it: politically Scorrect!

I think (but it's just my opinion) that this all is about the dark side taking over: no love, just morbid thoughts; no dreams, just nightmares; everything is twisted and corrupted...

 

this is what I (and again, its only my opinion) love of Malifaux: deranged and twisted things.

[dgraz]

HA! fun, OK, lets go with knobs. Knobs is legit right?

Haha.....yeah because it's bad to make an insult using a woman's reproductive organ, but OKAY to use a man's!

 

Just like it's okay to make white people the criminal, but if it's a black Convict Gunslinger...whoa!

 

Equality. Sure.

[bertmac]

Why is it so important to retain historical accuracy in the gender divide when it isn't important to retain it in whether magic exists or not? Or whether electric bass guitars exist on the battle field as valid weapons? Or whether drunk green midget hillbillies can kill a giant demon with a wooden spoon? Not all Malifaux males look like Urijah Faber or Dominick Cruz. Nor like Andy Murray or Roger Federer.Here's an olympic gold medallist in hammer throw:http://www.jazzmess.com/test/olympicathlete.jpgHow many Malifaux women look like her? So would your enjoyment of Malifaux been lessened if one of the two male Torakage had been a woman? Or if Angel Eyes had had a shirt? Because that's essentially what this boils down to. That's what you're fighting against.

First off i like a foundation of realism to work from in my games and flights of fancy.

I think this quote sums up my feelings.

“We also often add to our pain and suffering by being overly sensitive, over-reacting to minor things, and sometimes taking things too personally.” Dalai Lama

[Dirial]

First off i like a foundation of realism to work from in my games and flights of fancy.

I think this quote sums up my feelings.

“We also often add to our pain and suffering by being overly sensitive, over-reacting to minor things, and sometimes taking things too personally.” Dalai Lama

 

I think I said enough about why I feel that the privileged party saying someone is overly sensitive or some things are minor, rings pretty hollow to me.

[DeleteAccount]

Haha.....yeah because it's bad to make an insult using a woman's reproductive organ, but OKAY to use a man's!

 

Just like it's okay to make white people the criminal, but if it's a black Convict Gunslinger...whoa!

 

Equality. Sure.

OK, so I assume I´ve just learned that knob is slang for "dick" in the UK, FUN! And me thinking it was a shortening about being as dumb as a doorknob.

 

I can use dumbasses, right?! Everybody has an ass right?! Can somebody get snippy about that?!

 

Or are the assist lobby groups going to be offended?

[dhamil]

"the world is not a nice place for those that aren't prepared"

 

As a developer you have the opportunity to do what you can (even if it's not in community monitoring but in model design or fluff writing). Yet your response is "I guess if you're a woman you need self-defence training".You really want to restrict your possible fanbase to all men but only women who have self defence? That's a situation you are willing to accept?

 

So when I first showed up at the local gaming place for Malifaux, I was really quite interested. Probably will still get into it. But the fact that one of the guys there was repeatedly making comments about how one of his models was "showing her Ta-tas" in oder to attack. It wasn't a huge deal, but it weirded me out a bit. And I'd Love to be able to invite some of my other friends to try this game out, out, but given that most of my friends in real life are women, I'd guess that even simple comments like that would make them feel slightly (even slightly matters when first starting something) unwelcome. I would certainly be uncomfortable inviting them to a place that had that as a norm. I mean obviously they are capable of putting up with mild comments like that but why should they have to while engaging in their hobby? Is it so hard to expect a bit of decency?

[dgraz]

 Can somebody get snippy about that?!

 

Guaranteed. 

 

FYI - I quoted you, but my comment wasn't about you. More the whole...it's okay to insult white men, they deserve it......thing.

[Math Mathonwy]

First off i like a foundation of realism to work from in my games and flights of fancy.

I must admit that I'm a bit disappointed that you called me out about not responding to stuff and when I respond this is all I get. Especially weird since it doesn't really address my point. Why is gender divide all important to realism while electric bass guitars aren't?

Oh, and a Dalai Lama quote which doesn't really apply in any way, shape or form.

Oh well, here's a good quote of mine, then:

“You cannot reason people out of a position that they did not reason themselves into.”

― Ben Goldacre, Bad Science

[DeleteAccount]

Guaranteed. 

 

FYI - I quoted you, but my comment wasn't about you. More the whole...it's okay to insult white men, they deserve it......thing.

OK, I do agree with that, I hate white guilt quite a bit myself and I´m sometimes amazed at how much self loathing some people have for themselves for being white males. It´s not about having to carry the weight of the sins of the past, it´s about recognizing that yeah, you have had stuff easier because of your genetic hertiage and sharing the love now that you know better. Read an insane story of some person (don´t remember gender) about being so disgusted for being white that didn´t want to have children to not keep expanding thode dammed genes.

[Nathan Caroland]

As a developer you have the opportunity to do what you can (even if it's not in community monitoring but in model design or fluff writing). Yet your response is "I guess if you're a woman you need self-defence training".You really want to restrict your possible fanbase to all men but only women who have self defence? That's a situation you are willing to accept?

 

 

Hah, sorry, but I could say twenty different things, in twenty different ways, and it would still be interpreted in the manner that folks are inclined to do so. In this case, it was a blanket statement and non gender specific. 

[moxypoo]

This debate is very simple for me.

 

Wyrd makes products that I enjoy, and I'd like to continue to give them money in exchange for items that bring me a lot of happiness.  When they produce a model that I like, I'll but it, and when they produce ones I don't like, I won't buy them.  The gender of models makes no difference in whether I like the sculpt or not.

 

Therefore, I trust Nathan to make the correct decisions to expand his business.  If Wyrd's business model is to have an exactly equal number of models of every gender, ethnicity, sexual orientation, etc. that's fine, and if they decide to continue with what they're doing, that's fine too.  Basically I want them to make the choice that makes the best financial sense that makes them the most money so that they can continue to produce the products that they do.

[Ferossa]

It's discouraging to see an owner of the company repeatedly dismiss reports of harassment and sexism within the Malifaux community, especially when they come from someone who is trying to start the game. You have a new customer post to explain how the sexualised models give the player base license to make sexualised comments about women, which makes the poster uncomfortable participating in the hobby or inviting their friends. How many customers (and sales!) do you need to dismiss before you accept that this is a problem?

 

I don't think I've seen anyone dismiss a new player as quickly as Nathan did. "Just be tougher" is not real advice.

 

I think other posters have done a very good job of explaining how the appearance of the characters sets the standard for fandom behaviour. Malifaux is a well-written setting with deep, representative characters. The longer the owners fight against expanding it, the more they make those deep and enriching themes look accidental.

[Myyrä]

first: there are no australians, but i do think (joking) that in the early 1900 australians were not a population, but some kind of penal colony (anybody said Mr. McTavish Dundee??). But stop, no Italians? since 1800 italians were a population of migrant, so now-a-day you can find italian bloo almost everywhere!!

There are no "Australians" in Malifaux because Malifaux is Australia. Think about it...

[dgraz]

It's discouraging to see an owner of the company repeatedly dismiss reports of harassment and sexism within the Malifaux community, especially when they come from someone who is trying to start the game.

Maybe it's because he is a game designer and it isn't his job to fix society problems. It's not 'the Malifaux community' it's some rotten gamers that you dealt with...those out-liers are not the malifaux community. What happened to you was extreme, but not remotely near being Malifaux's fault. If it had happened in my LGS those guys would have had a real problem....but I don't think it's wrong to expect people to stand up for themselves. Seeking help elsewhere is fine, but expecting someone not even remotely involved to solve all those problems is not. Some people are jerks and they need to be dealt with on the spot....it's not a game designers job to do that.

[Nathan Caroland]

No, I'm not dismissing it.

 

You have made blanket statements about the hobby and gaming community in general, and in particular I have made a statement that one shouldn't deal with it in any way, shape or form. This again goes to the point that apparently somehow I in particular am a cause of some asshats behavior and that I apparently condone it, which I in no way do. 

 

As a matter of fact, I have had several henchmen dismissed over the years for behavior that we have found distasteful or not acting in a manner that we find that is in line with how we as a company present ourselves. I have NO control over how someone acts or behaves, I can only make certain that they in no way represent the company in any fashion as a volunteer. 

[r4st4f4n]

But the fact that one of the guys there was repeatedly making comments about how one of his models was "showing her Ta-tas" in oder to attack. It wasn't a huge deal, but it weirded me out a bit. And I'd Love to be able to invite some of my other friends to try this game out, out, but given that most of my friends in real life are women, I'd guess that even simple comments like that would make them feel slightly (even slightly matters when first starting something) unwelcome.

 

It's discouraging to see an owner of the company repeatedly dismiss reports of harassment and sexism within the Malifaux community, especially when they come from someone who is trying to start the game. You have a new customer post to explain how the sexualised models give the player base license to make sexualised comments about women, which makes the poster uncomfortable participating in the hobby or inviting their friends. How many customers (and sales!) do you need to dismiss before you accept that this is a problem?

And again.

Breasts are natural. Breasts are blameless. Breasts are sexual. They are meant by evolution exactly that way. Women have breasts, miniature women have miniature breasts, and reflect the various rates of showing/hiding them of the real world.

Prostitutes sell their bodies, and we are not making moral discussions over prostitutes job, in any case Malifaux portraits a fantastic representation of all the vicious and bad attitudes of the real world, and Malifaux has characters who represent prostitutes. Miniature prostitutes sell their miniature bodies.

I hope everything is clear by now, because it doesn't look exactly so...

So:

• If you are disturbed by fantastic prostitutes doing their job in a miniatures game, as well as any other reprehensible act the characters are supposed to do, Malifaux is not the game for your sensibility, never was, and never will, even after applying all the changes in this world.
• If you're disturbed by a guy who acts like a retard while you are playing a miniatures game you like => kick him out.

[CougDyver]

It's discouraging to see an owner of the company repeatedly dismiss reports of harassment and sexism within the Malifaux community, especially when they come from someone who is trying to start the game. You have a new customer post to explain how the sexualised models give the player base license to make sexualised comments about women, which makes the poster uncomfortable participating in the hobby or inviting their friends. How many customers (and sales!) do you need to dismiss before you accept that this is a problem?

 

I don't think I've seen anyone dismiss a new player as quickly as Nathan did. "Just be tougher" is not real advice.

 

I think other posters have done a very good job of explaining how the appearance of the characters sets the standard for fandom behaviour. Malifaux is a well-written setting with deep, representative characters. The longer the owners fight against expanding it, the more they make those deep and enriching themes look accidental.

 

Maybe i'm confused... But to me it sounds like first you have a problem with one guy who has threatened to rape 200 women in your area.... And you've also been roofied while gaming...  These are terrible things, but I'm finding it hard to make the connection between that and the appearance of females in malifaux.

 

To me it sounds like there is an asshat in your gaming community, that needs to be dealt with (probably by the police).  While i'm not a legal expert, if you have 200 people all corroborating that this man has threatened to rape you, i'd bet there is something the police can do...

 

The connection is what confuses me... Did this guy start these behaviors specifically after he started playing malifaux?  Even if this guys plays malifaux, I don't understand how wyrd is responsible for it, and how their models support it... I'd guess most people in the malifaux community think this guy is an asshat.  It sounds like he is a terrible person, that happened to buy malifaux products, and would still be a terrible person regardless of if he was playing malifaux, warmachine, monopoly, or chutes and ladders.  I don't get how having wyrd products condones this behavior, it doesn't make sense... Again, maybe i'm just dumb and not drawing the connections here, but to me it seems like a stretch.

[Ferossa]

No, I'm not dismissing it.

 

You have made blanket statements about the hobby and gaming community in general, and in particular I have made a statement that one shouldn't deal with it in any way, shape or form. This again goes to the point that apparently somehow I in particular am a cause of some asshats behavior and that I apparently condone it, which I in no way do. 

 

As a matter of fact, I have had several henchmen dismissed over the years for behavior that we have found distasteful or not acting in a manner that we find that is in line with how we as a company present ourselves. I have NO control over how someone acts or behaves, I can only make certain that they in no way represent the company in any fashion as a volunteer. 

 

It's not a blanket statement when it happens in every city, in every community when I try to wargame. I have never participated in wargaming without receiving harassment and abuse, and other women and men have posted with their experiences. Wargaming, and nerd culture overall, has a problem with women. That problem is evidenced by the player attitudes towards sexualised female models, and the more sexualised female models there are in the game, the more sexual harassment female players receive.

 

When you don't make women a part of your everyday setting (minion boxes), you send the message that women are not part of everyday Malifaux. Malifaux already sends the message that POC are strange anomalies, which is what happens when you have four black characters and two of them are "mystical". Wyrd has a responsibility to pay attention to the themes and subtext they include in the game.

You don't get to make a game based around narrative dynamics and then complain when players examine that narrative.

 

Finally, if you find yourself in the position of having to ban or fire a henchman for harassment, that's something I would like to know about. It doesn't make Wyrd look bad because they had an issue, it makes them look like a responsible company who cares about their community. The only people who will be scared off by that knowledge that the community ousts people are people likely to be ousted. Knowing that players have some recourse for bad henchmen or toxic groups is relieving and shows Wyrd cares about the community. Adding a feedback option for local play would be really cool.

[Nathan Caroland]

Your opinion is obviously yours, I respectfully disagree with portions of it, but experiences and thoughts vary and are welcome for it.

 

As for banning/releasing henchmen, it happens. We're never happy about it of course, but some things just aren't acceptable. And no, we will not be making announcements or inviting comment upon it for many reasons, not the least of which are legalities. 

 

As for reports, good or bad (and we get quite a number of congratulations from stores or customers who have had a good experience or demo and want the person to be recognized for it), the contact us button is right there and we read through every e-mail. 

[dgraz]

It's not a blanket statement when it happens in every city, in every community when I try to wargame. I have never participated in wargaming without receiving harassment and abuse,

What backwards area of the world are you playing in? I'm sorry, but some of the things you say are extremely hard to believe...especially with the knowledge that that kind of behavior would not be tolerated in any LGS I've been in.

 

I mean, I'm not sure what Nathan is supposed to do about you getting "repeated slaps on your rear", but if it keeps happening maybe you're not making it clear that that is NOT okay.

With all the things in your list that have happened to you it sounds like you play in a male prison.