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Nathan Caroland

All the things you want to soapbox and/or have debate about in Malifaux

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You have to consider who's most likely to purchase Wyrd's products as well. Traditionally, many more males play wargames than females, so in the interest of turning a profit, it's in Wyrd's interest to cater to their largest customer base.

One can certainly argue that including more female fantasies (whatever it is you're referring to here) in Malifaux would increase the female player base, but I suspect that there will never be an equal number of men and women playing a tabletop wargame. Now, I'm not privy to any of Wyrd's market research or financials, but from years of gaming and introducing people to gaming all over the United States, I've observed that women in general are much less interested in gaming than men.

Now that's a self-fulfilling prophecy if there ever was one. "Women don't game so why try catering to them?"

Also, are these the same women who don't play video games? You know, those gamers who are 52% women?

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Now that's a self-fulfilling prophecy if there ever was one. "Women don't game so why try catering to them?"

Also, are these the same women who don't play video games? You know, those gamers who are 52% women?

Well, for the sake of completeness, that study said that the games played by that 52% were mostly "Words With Friends" and "Candy Crush" alikes on smart phones. The millionaire productions with world wide teams working day and night on Terabytes of models and textures to achieve life like graphics and build huge digital worlds over half-decades of work, couldn't exactly even start, if they were aimed to that 52% women market. In fact, this kind of videogames continues to be aimed to the 48% of male gamers plus some girls (because they are there too, but aren't that 52%)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_most_expensive_video_games_to_develop

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There is no God, Evolution is Settled Science and Wyrd keeps stealing my money and leaving these little pieces of plastic and metal in its place that I feel compelled to paint.

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Well, for the sake of completeness, that study said that the games played by that 52% were mostly "Words With Friends" and "Candy Crush" alikes on smart phones. The millionaire productions with world wide teams working day and night on Terabytes of models and textures to achieve life like graphics and build huge digital worlds over half-decades of work, couldn't exactly even start, if they were aimed to that 52% women market. In fact, this kind of videogames continues to be aimed to the 48% of male gamers plus some girls (because they are there too, but aren't that 52%)

Those super expensive AAA titles are also well known for having terrible representation for non-male non-white gamers.  Look to WoW and the Sims for big budget games with more even player populations.  There's a reason why so many female gamers are happy about the new Dishonored 2 trailer (hint:  it's because it showcases a female protagonist)

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Those super expensive AAA titles are also well known for having terrible representation for non-male non-white gamers.  Look to WoW and the Sims for big budget games with more even player populations.  There's a reason why so many female gamers are happy about the new Dishonored 2 trailer (hint:  it's because it showcases a female protagonist)

I don't know how female characters are represented in WoW, so I googled it: https://www.google.it/search?q=World+of+Warcraft+female&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=3R2YVdaxCMm3Uf2_qiA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1268&bih=610

this is the "Acceptable" grade then? *takes notes*

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I don't know how female characters are represented in WoW, so I googled it: https://www.google.it/search?q=World+of+Warcraft+female&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=3R2YVdaxCMm3Uf2_qiA&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1268&bih=610

this is the "Acceptable" grade then? *takes notes*

It's better than being completely absent, and the women in the WoW community have actually been complaining for a long time that it needs to get changed.  Right now we're at a state where "almost anything is better than nothing" as far as female playable characters in AAA games.  In the games that have had more diverse audiences for longer the complaints have shifted to, "Ok, it's cool that I can be a lady, but can I please not always be thin and showing off my boobs now?"  That second stage is actually where we are with Wyrd right now, and that should be taken as a good sign of progress.  Progress that shouldn't be opposed since no one wants to take away the already existing toys.

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Wyrd has really solid themes (ask me to defend Seamus as a critique of European masculinity!) and the people in the world feel real. I started playing the game because there were a variety of female models, and the longer I play the game, the fewer overall female options I have because the gender gap continues to increase.

 

The sexy models are frustrating because Wyrd seems content to accept praise for being better than 90% of the competition without making any real commitment to continue that legacy. We're in a renaissance of diverse narratives, and what was a diverse narrative in 2005 (or 2009) isn't diverse ten years later. Rather than being angry that increased diversity is the norm, it's an opportunity to jump ahead of the curve and maintain the lead that Wyrd established.

 

Some "mild, joking" sexism I and my friends have experienced from people in the miniatures hobby

  • repeated jokes about how the male players would love to rape us
  • jokes about roofies in our drinks
  • actual roofie at a convention (in case you thought jokes about roofies were harmless)
  • "Why so many Belles?" "What else are women good for?"
  • "Lynch?" "Yeah, it's the sexy slut party!"
  • Repeated slaps on my ass
  • Breathy creeps playing pocket pool trying to convince me to cosplay the Sisters of Battle (No.)
  • Being PICKED UP FROM BEHIND and CARRIED OFF in a mall because we played a minis game once and they thought my screaming was funny

Yeah, I can't imagine why I'm fed up with sexism in my hobby. Jokes about sexism aren't funny and they have no place on the gaming table. "lol society thinks ur lesser" just isn't funny.

But, you actually want to change those idiots producing those statements and acts in your real world, not a miniatures game! That is serious and it's work for a lot of real world authorities. How is the miniatures game involved into this? If Ironsides were overweight, would those sub-humans stop being so?

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The sexy models are frustrating because Wyrd seems content to accept praise for being better than 90% of the competition without making any real commitment to continue that legacy. We're in a renaissance of diverse narratives, and what was a diverse narrative in 2005 (or 2009) isn't diverse ten years later. Rather than being angry that increased diversity is the norm, it's an opportunity to jump ahead of the curve and maintain the lead that Wyrd established.

Just on this point, I feel it is worth noting that most of second edition up to this point has simply been playing catch up with first edition.

In terms of genuinely new content in second, you have:

Ironsides: female master packaged with male henchman and minions too heavily clothed to tell.

Mah Tucket: all female gremlin box (though whether gremlins are really representative of anything human is debatable)

Ulix: male Gremlin whose box is entirely animal

Tara: female

Shenlong: male

Brewmaster: can't really tell, at least by the model. Probably male.

Everything else was already pretty well established. That isn't to say it was perfect to begin with, I make no comment either way on that. But if you want to look at change, in any direction, you need to start with those boxes and continue to book three.

Carry on. :)

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But, you actually want to change those idiots producing those statements and acts in your real world, not a miniatures game! That is serious and it's work for a lot of real world authorities. How is the miniatures game involved into this? If Ironsides were overweight, would those sub-humans stop being so?

There's a lot about minis games making them "old boys' clubs" which breeds horrid behaviour as was described. A lot of male gamers simply don't know how to act around women (gamers).

I witnessed a team tournament of WHFB where the teams were randomly formed. One team had the sole woman player and two young men. I chatted around with various people including the woman. Apparently her two team-mates completely shut her off. They didn't listen to anything she was saying, told her to deploy in a flank and move forward with no other input. Her opponents ended up talking more to her than her team mates.

I mean, this is far less of a story than what Ferossa described but it ties directly into game play. And she wasn't a noob (or at least I have seen her pink Lizardmen in several tournament - I don't really play WHFB competitively anymore).

And what I'm most flabbergasted about is what are people afraid of? Having two female Torakage instead of one doesn't seem like it should be the end of the world. Or two female Latigo Pistoleros to pick a box which isn't out yet. Or having one of the Guild Guard being black? And getting a couple of new female players maybe? I really don't think that the request is unreasonable or worth fighting against?

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Just on this point, I feel it is worth noting that most of second edition up to this point has simply been playing catch up with first edition.

In terms of genuinely new content in second, you have:

Ironsides: female master packaged with male henchman and minions too heavily clothed to tell.

Mah Tucket: all female gremlin box (though whether gremlins are really representative of anything human is debatable)

Ulix: male Gremlin whose box is entirely animal

Everything else was already pretty well established. That isn't to say it was perfect to begin with, I make no comment either way on that. But if you want to look at change, in any direction, you need to start with those three boxes and continue to book three.

Carry on. :)

Brewmaster, too, surely? And Shen Long?

And Tara sorta, though not quite? And elevating Jack Daw and Wong. But those aren't comparable, really.

But you could've had two female plastic Death Marshalls ;)

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Just on this point, I feel it is worth noting that most of second edition up to this point has simply been playing catch up with first edition.

In terms of genuinely new content in second, you have:

Ironsides: female master packaged with male henchman and minions too heavily clothed to tell.

Mah Tucket: all female gremlin box (though whether gremlins are really representative of anything human is debatable)

Ulix: male Gremlin whose box is entirely animal

Everything else was already pretty well established. That isn't to say it was perfect to begin with, I make no comment either way on that. But if you want to look at change, in any direction, you need to start with those three boxes and continue to book three.

Carry on. :)

To add to this, although I don´t feel the lack of females as much (I do wish that minion boxes go back to having varied sex and body type though, even in unexpected scenarios, Ice Dancer male would be pretty awesome and female monk of the wandering river are two quick examples), but what I really miss is body types. I was really disappointing when I saw Ironsides was a petite lady instead of the beast I was expecting, we already have a ton of petite asskickers, but having more varied body types would be sweet. Same applies to the dudes, more fatties!

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There's a lot about minis games making them "old boys' clubs" which breeds horrid behaviour as was described. A lot of male gamers simply don't know how to act around women (gamers).

I witnessed a team tournament of WHFB where the teams were randomly formed. One team had the sole woman player and two young men. I chatted around with various people including the woman. Apparently her two team-mates completely shut her off. They didn't listen to anything she was saying, told her to deploy in a flank and move forward with no other input. Her opponents ended up talking more to her than her team mates.

I mean, this is far less of a story than what Ferossa described but it ties directly into game play. And she wasn't a noob (or at least I have seen her pink Lizardmen in several tournament - I don't really play WHFB competitively anymore).

And what I'm most flabbergasted about is what are people afraid of? Having two female Torakage instead of one doesn't seem like it should be the end of the world. Or two female Latigo Pistoleros to pick a box which isn't out yet. Or having one of the Guild Guard being black? And getting a couple of new female players maybe? I really don't think that the request is unreasonable or worth fighting against?

I still fail to see the relation between two female torakages instead of one, and the fact that the person you face is a sexist idiot, who talks and acts in a horrible manner. There is a big barrier between real and the game.

I'm not worried at all about the upcoming presence of a more various amount of female characters, not at all! You can look at my avatar, it's not there to make fun of the character! I'm not afraid to be represented by something that doesn't match the imposed standards, I'm proud of it.

The reason why I'm rising points, is that I'm afraid of movements when they become sorta religious and close-minded. And, for example, derail a dozen different totally unrelated threads to impose a message like a homily (before even questioning whether that idea is "right" or "wrong").

For the same reason, I tend to perceive very subjective and contradictory messages, when Jack the Ripper Seamus can receive an apology because his fluff says he "just" slaughters women with no sexual intent, while Lizzy Lovelace was targeted and destroyed before even knowing a toe of her appearance and personality (and her only "mistake" was also unintended, rather virtuous!)

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Brewmaster, too, surely? And Shen Long?And Tara sorta, though not quite? And elevating Jack Daw and Wong. But those aren't comparable, really.But you could've had two female plastic Death Marshalls ;)

Man, I suck.

That's what I get for posting with a screaming child in my lap. Yes:

Brewmaster

Tara

Shenlong

Wouldn't count Wong and Daw myself. They were pretty well predetermined.

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I'm out of likes for the day, so  :+fate  :+fate  :+fate to everyone and this thread in general.

 

The representation divide can't be fixed by more female masters. Don't get me wrong: Malifaux has a pretty even divide and that's a good thing. The issue arises when you look at the world of Malifaux and the 80 average men for every 20 average women. We see more men doing things than women, and when we see a woman on the tabletop, we know that she is exceptional: a master, henchman, enforcer. If the only women we see are women in exceptional positions, then that means that most women simply aren't exceptional enough. Women can come to Malifaux, but only if they can play like one of the boys.

 

That's the attitude we saw in the last thread. That's the attitude Math talked about in this thread. It is present in the community and it is a problem for those who care about the community.

 

(I always recommend Doctor Nerdlove. If you're struggling with your privilege, Nerds and Male Privilege is a great 101 that unpacks what it means in a sociological sense and how having privilege doesn't make you a bad person.)

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For the same reason, I tend to perceive very subjective and contradictory messages, when Jack the Ripper Seamus can receive an apology because his fluff says he "just" slaughters women with no sexual intent, while Lizzy Lovelace was targeted and destroyed before even knowing a toe of her appearance and personality (and her only "mistake" was also unintended, rather virtuous!)

 

Quickly jumping on this, because I was in the Lizzy fight. The problem was a bunch of dudes making jokes about a woman who had her sexual assault filmed and distributed. It may be a porn classic, but it's about as consensual as the Steubenville videos. It's not an appropriate thing to joke about, especially when that forum is a stranger's first look into the Malifaux community.

 

I'm still in favour of the name "Lizzy Lovelace" because I think it's a good homage, alliterative, and anyone who wants to be sexist about it is advertising that they're a terrible human and making themselves easy to avoid.

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Sure! (I might make a separate thread for this, since I have one for all the masters.)

 

Seamus is Jack the Ripper, but Seamus is also a critique of the Victorian values that created Jack the Ripper (cf. "Run and Hyde" and the eponymous novel). Seamus is the misogyny that drives men to believe they can possess women, and he exacts that desire literally. His role in the narrative is one of unquestioned antagonist: he is abusive to Molly (his "girlfiend" for 1e), creates and ignores hundreds of Belles (cf. Red Pill "love 'em/leave 'em" ideology), and, importantly for the narrative, it is those acts that show him as monstrous, because (as other players have mentioned) violence in the game is taken for granted.

 

Malifaux is a narrative game, which means some of the models are going to be villains. Wyrd doesn't shy away from the cruelty and horror, but they don't capitalise on it for titillation either. Perhaps most importantly, Seamus is, as far as we know, a virgin. Seamus is completely asexual. He wants to possess women because they are pretty. Seamus is a man who has completely dismissed the reality of women's humanity and desires only to keep them around as decorations.

 

Wait! But didn't he cover a bunch of ruins in dirty limericks about him and Molly? Yes, but so did the boys in my grade seven science class and I was not a particularly promiscuous eleven year old. Seamus wants attention. He wants to shock and he wants to exploit people's vulnerabilities to shock them the most. That he chooses to taunt Sonnia with dirty limericks shows just how inept he is at achieving any goals that aren't murder.

 

Sex workers are some of the most vulnerable people in our society. Rather than being "sexy" and inflicting body-violation horror on demographics who already deal with that constant threat, Seamus is a master of psychological horror. He is boyfriend who stalks you and kills you when you break up.

 

Like Humbert Humbert, Seamus is just an awful, terrible human being. He is entirely self-centred, focuses on his own infamy over practical concerns, and if he were alive today, he'd probably be calling women "whores" on the internet. In many ways, Seamus' explosion of violence echoes the motivations of male spree-killers like Brevik, Lépine, and Rodger.

 

TL;DR: Seamus isn't a good person. Wyrd knows that and has created one of the most satisfying villains to smear off the table.

Ferossa, you just made a post which i believe to be one of the best this forum has ever produced about the storyline of Malifaux, and of Malifaux in general. I hope you're proud of it. I know I would be.

 

This game we all play has a lot of grey areas in terms of morality. The Guild is often seen as the "good guys" and the Neverborn "evil" to the lore-untrained mind. But when we get further into the story, one "lore-untrained mind" realizes that the Neverborn seem to be analogous to the Native Americans, and the Guild the settlers. Now, here is where one asks themselves if what the settlers did was good, or even for the greater good (while being a minor/moderate/major evil). The more liberal person would possibly say it was wretched and horrible. The more conservative person might say it was for a greater good.

 

i don't mean to bring politics into this, and especially not American politics. That's just not quite my style. However, it makes a good analogy-buffer.

 

Going back to my point, I have come to the decision that most every Master in Malifaux is amoral/immoral/has their own ulterior agendas. i have even begun to think of *Leveticus* of all masters as remarkably more morally-inclined than the brunt of them (especially Guild masters). However, that's just me, and i know a lot of people will disagree (The Dreamer, for example! But in the story, it seems more as if Nytmare/Lord Chompy Bits is the true Master there, in a Hungering Darkness - Jakob Lynch sort of dynamic, only more dirtily enacted [by corrupting the innocence of a probably-disturbed child]. And maybe the Gremlins, but they're comic relief, except Zoraida).

 

But to bring the point home, i think that in the end we can all agree that Seamus is a complete monster, more so than any Neverborn sans possibly (and even then it might be debatable) the Tyrants.

 

And that's why we love to beat him down.

 

And that's why he is so hard to kill off.

 

The developers may have well touched upon a sweet spot in our emotions when making Seamus. We often hate people who are like him, so we hate him. And then, we make a concerted effort to kill him. That's not always good for the game, see, so the developers made him reasonably more resilient than, say, a master like Sonnia or Misaki, who are power players in their own right, but are not nearly as despicable in aesthetic premise.

 

Let's gnaw on that bone for a bit. Quite possibly, for the sake of the game, the developers made a hated character almost impossible to kill within 4-5 turns. Why else could that be, you might ask? Well, I'd suggest it's to feel super-accomplished when you *do* off him in the end, if you manage it. Which is good, and for some people, liberating in a manner.

 

~Lil Kalki

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Quickly jumping on this, because I was in the Lizzy fight. The problem was a bunch of dudes making jokes about a woman who had her sexual assault filmed and distributed. It may be a porn classic, but it's about as consensual as the Steubenville videos. It's not an appropriate thing to joke about, especially when that forum is a stranger's first look into the Malifaux community.

 

I'm still in favour of the name "Lizzy Lovelace" because I think it's a good homage, alliterative, and anyone who wants to be sexist about it is advertising that they're a terrible human and making themselves easy to avoid.

I was just miffed about the whole situation since I liked how it sounded, I didn´t really know anything about the reference. The disgusting little event you mentioned certainly didn´t go through my radar and the less something like that gets mentioned in a "mockish" manner the better...

 

Which brings me to my question to the air. Do we know what her final name is now? I am quite curious and it´s not like it can be changed anymore.

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Man, I suck.

That's what I get for posting with a screaming child in my lap. Yes:

Brewmaster

Tara

Shenlong

Wouldn't count Wong and Daw myself. They were pretty well predetermined.

Aye, I wouldn't either, which I tried to convey. And Tara was the result of a campaign so a bit different as well, I think (though I'm not quite sure of the exact workings of how she came to be).
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