How long do you keep the Black Joker in hand?

[zFiend]

as bad as BJ'ing yourself...

... wait that came out wrong.

I see no problem with that.

[kross1]

I don't like playing down a card. I always discard the BJ at the start of the next turn. The only thing I won't do is discard it during the turn I draw it unless I have to (Decapitate for example). However, I also play with a lot of redundancy....so if one model fails with the BJ, I usually have another that can cover that gap.

[kross1]

The above( stupid phone operator). I usually by cards and try to slip it in that if i draw it.

[daniello_s]

Having Hannah on the table or Lazarus+Abomination I like to keep Black Joker in my hand till the beginning of turn 5 when I can honestly discard it before drawing control cards.

Alternatively I try to plant Black Joker into my opponents deck when he doesn't look and when he eventually flips Black Joker second time this turn, I calmly state that sometimes very bad things happen in Malifaux

[CapnBloodbeard]

Interesting question.  I think I'd rather know where it is, nothing worse than flipping the black joker when you need to win badly, but nothing better than flipping it when it doesn't matter.

 

Sure, it does mean you're playing a card down - but maybe that card was only going to be a 2 anyway.  I wonder how that would work out mathematically?  If your card is mostly low, then statistically the BJ is probably replacing a higher card....

 

At least if you flip a 2 you can normally cheat it, unlike a BJ, so I reckon you're normally better off playing a card down.

 

But I suppose it depends on what you can do with the low cards - von Schill has lots of uses for bad cards (reference the field guide, I pay better)...

 

I guess it's just your appetite for risk.  Flipping the black joker at a critical moment can be a game changer.

[Tuttleboy]

I will hold it turn 1 & 2 generally and will discard it before drawing turn 3. I don't like playing a card down in the later turns.

[CanYaDigIT]

If I draw it I will try and keep it that turn so I can discard it for the next turn. That will keep it out of play for two turns. There is no reason to hamper yourself the entire game by playing down a card. Secondly,  there are times where games do come down to one AP. That should be the exception. If once out of every 10 games comes down to one AP, the chances of getting the Black Joker on that flip is so slim you have no reason to plan for it. Games should be played so the norm should be several options to win the game. Minimize the impact that the 1 tiny black joker could have on the game.

[Philosfr]

Minimize the impact that the 1 tiny black joker could have on the game.

Those of us that keep it in our hand are trying to do just that.

 

I can think of several games where the black joker had a huge impact on the game. Last game in the Adepticon Masters tournament this year had a 6 point victory swing due to a black joker on damage on the last swing to kill a hard to kill model with bodyguard that turned around and assassinated the opponent master. Now in this case it was my opponents black joker and my good fortune, but that was a huge VP swing. 

 

If you have a crew or are facing an opponents crew with a lot of horror flips, pulse flips, focus, or automatic positive or negative twists, it's easy to burn through your entire deck in one round. Having the black joker in my hand keeps me safe from an ill timed flip. 

 

The downside is playing with a control hand effectively one less card in size. Yet having one extra card in my hand doesn't necessarily mean it's a good one. I have just as good of a chance drawing a 1 or 2 as I do of a 12 or 13 if I discarded the black joker. I've played Lilith a lot and enjoy the extra cards from Rush of Magic, but I've never felt that was anything more than a minor bonus rather than a game changing ability like a black joker on a damage flip tends to be.

[CanYaDigIT]

It can be a huge disadvantage to not have the extra draw.  The other part is I as an opponent know it is a bad card and if you do not discard it I will know you have the black joker in your hand. You got lucky and if you played the same game 100 times that would only happen 1 other time.

 

Justifying holding the card because your opponent did not is a poor excuse. Maybe if you have many horror duels it is worth it or maybe tons of flips. But overall there is no reason to hold the black joker. IT is out of play for almost half the game at that point. If you game hinges on a single flip, you might need to play better.

[Philosfr]

It can be a huge disadvantage to not have the extra draw.  The other part is I as an opponent know it is a bad card and if you do not discard it I will know you have the black joker in your hand. You got lucky and if you played the same game 100 times that would only happen 1 other time.

I disagree with this. If my opponent is holding onto cards, I usually assume they are good cards. If they were bad cards, they would get pitched. If my opponent opts not to cheat and they have a card they did not discard, I would be more likely to assume it's the red joker or a specific suit they wanted for something else. I would rarely expect a card they are holding to be the black joker unless I noticed them going through their deck an entire round and not flipping it.

 

As far as playing the same game 100 times, I agree that odds are that it would not happen again on that flip. But that does not mean that another critical flip wouldn't have had similar impact on the game. In a game against an opponent at least as reasonably skilled as you are, I would expect there to be a several pivotal turns where I success or a failure would have game changing consequences. Maybe not 6 VP worth, but certainly game changing. If you're playing against an opponent where you had no critical flips, you probably outclass them enough where you don't need to worry about keeping or discarding the black.

 

My Adepticon story is hardly the only story about the black joker, but it is a great one for 1) how impactful it was and 2) that it can happen in a Masters tournament and completely change the outcome of the entire tournament.

[CanYaDigIT]

You are using one story to justify an entire strategy. You are searching for a reason to justify your action. You holding the black joker in that case did nothing.

I have had games where the black joker did ruin my day but it was nearly 1 nail in a coffin I had already built. Hold the black joker is not worth it. Cards are a resource and you are greatly mismanaging it.

[moxypoo]

Glad to see so much good discussion!

 

I've been thinking about this topic more over the past few days, especially after flipping the BJ 4 times in my last game.  I think I want to defend my original assertion that holding the BJ until discarding it on Turn 5 works best for my play style.

 

I tend to play crews on either end of the extreme in terms of card flipping count.  For example, I enjoy playing Abomination swarms with Toshiro and Levy or thematic Hamelin crews that often allow my to flip my entire deck in a single turn.  On the other hand, I play some elite crews with masters like Jack Daw and Tara where a limited number of cards are flipped, but the success of each action is important.  With the former example, each individual action tends to mean little since I have so much AP and redundancy, but I'm near guaranteed to flip the BJ at least once per turn unless it's in my hand. With the latter example, failure of any action can be very detrimental to my game plan, so minimizing the risk of the BJ coming up is key.

 

While I do think there's merit in the arguments for discarding it on a key turn, I tend to play crews that allow me to draw cards and also often spend SS to draw extra cards, which means I often have a better hand than my opponent even if I'm down a card. However, I'll have to ponder and experiment with the strategy of discarding the BJ sooner rather than holding it to see whether I have greater success with that strategy.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Rethinking it, like Moxypoo suggests, your decision could be largely based on your playstyle. I don't tend to put myself in make or break positions or in situations where if I don't win initiative then I don't win the game, hence my decision. If you play on the wire, you might be better off keeping the BJ in hand. Also - if you find yourself drawing your entire deck in summoning crew builds (somer) you might be more inclinded to keep it safe than if you run low model count elite crews (McM with the standardhenchman trio).

A lot to consider but having 3-5 extra cards a game is probably better than flipping BJ here and there... most of the time on plays that probably don't matter that much.

Any way you look at it you are still handicapping yourself to avoid one card. Stop living in fear!

[CanYaDigIT]

As you stated, you should try to avoid needing to win initiative and not having a single point of failure. Holding the black joker is living in fear. Free the joker

[dgraz]

 Holding the black joker is living in fear. Free the joker

I can dig it.

[moxypoo]

Rethinking it, like Moxypoo suggests, your decision could be largely based on your playstyle. I don't tend to put myself in make or break positions or in situations where if I don't win initiative then I don't win the game, hence my decision. If you play on the wire, you might be better off keeping the BJ in hand. Also - if you find yourself drawing your entire deck in summoning crew builds (somer) you might be more inclinded to keep it safe than if you run low model count elite crews (McM with the standardhenchman trio).

 

 

As you stated, you should try to avoid needing to win initiative and not having a single point of failure. Holding the black joker is living in fear. Free the joker

 

I think playstyle definitely plays a part, since I tend to be very risk adverse when playing Malifaux. Because of that, I like to have multiple layers of redundancy so if something critical fails, I can try again.  However if my plan succeeds the first time, then my backup models can go do something more useful.  If I have the choice, I never play a game that hinges on one critical flip (including needing to win the initiative).  Sometime though, your opponent doesn't let you do that and forces situations where the initiative flip (for example) can make a huge difference in the game.

 

So far, holding the BJ in my hand for most of the game has worked well for me, but there's certainly a possibility that I'm wrong!  I'm going to have to experiment a little and see whether holding the BJ only for a critical turn works better, and if it does, then I'll change my stance.

[Philosfr]

Ultimately, my best analogy would be health insurance.

 

If you have health insurance, you're paying a little bit even while you're healthy and it doesn't matter. Maybe you get lucky and it never matters. In that case, in hindsight, you can say you wasted money on health insurance.

 

However, if you end up in some horrible accident or catching some exotic disease, that health insurance may make or break you. It quickly repays for itself and you come out ahead.

 

Keeping the black joker is a little like paying each month for health insurance. Yes, it costs me. And yes, the game may play out and I would never have flipped it at the bad time, and therefore it was "wasted". Unlike health insurance though, by paying to keep the black joker in my hand, I successfully avoid the bad stuff that may have occurred. In Malifaux parlance, I cheated fate by keeping the bad stuff out of play. There is no way to know if I wasted those resources that game since the joker was not in the deck. I would only know that I should have kept it in my hand if I comes up on a bad flip.

 

In many games, there's often the choice between "burst" and "sustained". I see this as a similar argument. Both sides have merits. I tend to argue for the "sustained" and "reliable" damage in those games. I'd rather know I can count on my abilities rather than counting on luck. Removing the black joker helps me do that. Keeping the joker in the deck for more resources relies more on random chance and luck rather than my own abilities. I'm counting on drawing something better by discarding the joker, and counting on not getting it on a flip. I don't have control over that, I can only hope. I'd rather have control by keeping it in my hand.

[CanYaDigIT]

Playing high quality opponent will require you to take every advantage you have. The more cards you can cycle through the better. Holding that Joker eliminates one of your resources. A skilled player can use every card for a purpose. A nurse can discard to gain suit. a tot needs a mask. Flurry needs a card. Lure on a belle only needs a 4. Low cards can be used. The black joker can only be discarded for flurry.

 

Your strat of holding the black joker might have worked this far, but as you progress it will become more of a burden than a help. If your game hinges on one flip than it was a tight game and either person deserves to win. More than likely though you made more mistakes than you should and you are trying to make up for it. The black joker on a damage flip one time a turn, or failing one df duel with it shouldnt be a problem. There are two sides to this argument but for the most part only one applies to competitive play. You have to maximize all of your resources. That includes cards. Sure you can stone, but stones are also a resource and should be maximized as well. Of the three resources in the game, AP, Stones, and Cards, AP is the one you have the most of.

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Health Insurance? Who needs that? >8)

[Trample]

Played a game tonight where both my opponent and I drew it in round one and discarded it in round 4. I discovered he had it in round 3 when he cycled the deck with one card held and I think he suspected I was holding as well. 

[Adran]

In many games, there's often the choice between "burst" and "sustained". I see this as a similar argument. Both sides have merits. I tend to argue for the "sustained" and "reliable" damage in those games. I'd rather know I can count on my abilities rather than counting on luck. Removing the black joker helps me do that. Keeping the joker in the deck for more resources relies more on random chance and luck rather than my own abilities. I'm counting on drawing something better by discarding the joker, and counting on not getting it on a flip. I don't have control over that, I can only hope. I'd rather have control by keeping it in my hand.

 

And conversly, playing with a smaller hand size means you are more likely to be relying on the luck of your flip, as you are less likely to have a suitable card to cheat from your hand.

 

I agree that the Black Joker can ruin a flip, but on a large amount of the flips its not very much different to flipping a 4 or lower.  

 

I'm pretty sure that it is all based perception. the "correct" answer to this question will differ from player to player, and crew to crew, and isn't goign to make a huge difference either way.

Holding the black joker means you have more consistancy, but will do worse overall (less control of each individual action), having it in the deck probably means you'll do better over all, but with moments of potential catastrophy.

[moxypoo]

Playing high quality opponent will require you to take every advantage you have. The more cards you can cycle through the better. Holding that Joker eliminates one of your resources. A skilled player can use every card for a purpose. A nurse can discard to gain suit. a tot needs a mask. Flurry needs a card. Lure on a belle only needs a 4. Low cards can be used. The black joker can only be discarded for flurry.

 

Your strat of holding the black joker might have worked this far, but as you progress it will become more of a burden than a help. If your game hinges on one flip than it was a tight game and either person deserves to win. More than likely though you made more mistakes than you should and you are trying to make up for it. The black joker on a damage flip one time a turn, or failing one df duel with it shouldnt be a problem. There are two sides to this argument but for the most part only one applies to competitive play. You have to maximize all of your resources. That includes cards. Sure you can stone, but stones are also a resource and should be maximized as well. Of the three resources in the game, AP, Stones, and Cards, AP is the one you have the most of.

 

I have had exactly 1 game come down to a single flip.  If the flip went in my favor then I won, while if it went against me, then I lost.  Please don't assume I'm a scrub.  I regularly play against some very smart people who are excellent players, and I win most of my games. 

 

To reply to your first paragraph: the Black Joker can be discarded to ANY ability or action that requires a discard of a card, of which there are many.  Now obviously you can use low cards for more than just discards, but realistically how often are you winning Lure duels with a total of 12 or using that 3 for anything besides a discard?  While I agree with you that holding the BJ limits your hand (you'll see 5 fewer cards in the average game if you hold it the entire game), I disagree that seeing 5 fewer cards will spell the difference between victory and defeat, especially if you use SS or actions that draw cards.

 

Your argument about maximizing resources is true; one does have to utilize all resources correctly to beat good opponents.  However, "maximizing your hand" assumes that you use every card in it every turn.  Do you tend to use your entire hand, or are there lots of turns where you have some low card that has no use during the turn?  I can say that I often have a 1-5 of a suit that doesn't benefit me that just gets discarded during the next draw phase.  If you have even one card that you plan on discarding in your hand at the end of the turn, then you'd probably be better off having the Black Joker for that turn.

 

I also agree that it's rare that the BJ completely swings the game, but it absolutely does have a butterfly effect whenever it comes up.  Whether that means you have to divert new resources to complete the action you thought was a new thing or alter your game plan, automatically failing part of your plan can have far reaching effects.  I'll illustrate this with an anecdote from my last game (Lynch vs. Colette, Reckoning). 

 

My opponent had a Dove with 1Wd left, and I had two severes in my hand with a Beckoner left to activate.  He had the Dove and Coryphee Duet.  I had already killed one model that turn, and the Dove was ~15" away from the Beckoner.  The Beckoner Lured the Dove closer (I had to cheat to win), and then was going to use Despicable Promises to kill it; however I flipped the BJ for damage, letting the Dove survive.  The Dove then moved and blew itself up, damaging one of my two Beckoners (could only cheat one of the defense duels).  That put the Beckoner low enough for the Coryphee duet to kill it in one hit, meaning that the Duet could then go an engage an Illuminated that was going to drop a marker for Plant Evidence next turn.  That one flip didn't swing the game, but it did have a far reaching effect.  If I had flipped literally any other card in my deck I could have dropped my 13, which would be irresistible for the Dove, and my plan would have proceeded unhindered.

[katadder]

I would rather keep it in hand. have lost  a game before when the BJ turned up 3 times for damage flips (one of them was for levi turning taelor into an abomination too) so would rather know where it is than not.

 

its like the people that buy decembers pawn for raspy, is it worth 2SS? yes if she sees the BJ alot, no if it never shows. but I can guarantee you will remember that time you thought about having it, didnt take it then see it every turn (on raspys activation) for the next 3 rounds. I never take it as its unlikely to come up for raspy much but I am sure there are times that upgrade is worth it.

[CanYaDigIT]

I have ways to use all of my cards usually. Sometimes I discard one but I had a use for it. Normally defensive triggers or nurse actions. For friendly lures 4 are amazing. 5 or 6 cards are a huge deal in a game. As you stated, only one game was directly affected by a bj. If a black joker comes out, plans change but that is part of the game.

[katadder]

only 1 game I mentioned, but that was worst example of it (was also a tourney). there have been plenty of other games where it comes out at a really bad moment so would rather know where it is than have another 2-5 in hand.