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Breakthrough

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AoS

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Hi, I think it's a noob question but I had a doubt about it.
 
The scheme markers, have to be completly within of the 6" inches to the deployment zone or just touching?
 
I have this question because when measuring, you dont need to be completly within, but when you deploy your crew you have to be completly within and the manual does not make difference between both.
 
Thanks for the answers!
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zFiend Grand Master

zFiend

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At some point people will learn to watch their phrasing. Until then, we have zFiend.

At your service.

And as times change, so does zFiend. There will always be innuendo. One just has to have a twisted enough mind to find it. That's what I'm here for.

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Clement Veteran

Clement

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There is actually one other place in the rulebook that wording completely within is used in. It has nothing to do with deployment. Who can find it?

Resser faction scheme!  

 

"At the end of the game, this Crew earns 2 VP if there are at

least two friendly Undead models and/or Corpse Markers
completely within each quarter of the board."
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Kamtosz Rookie

Kamtosz

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So the so called "wording" (as we call it in Europe) of "Breakthrough is: "1 VP for each Scheme Markers within of 6" of the enemy Deployment zone" while in Protect Territory it sounds: "SM which is at least 6" from its Deployment Zone"  Does this comparison perhaps mean that in Breakthrough those SM should be inside of enemy's Deployment zone?

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Kamtosz Rookie

Kamtosz

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My question was: are we talkin' about the distance that is "f= Deployement zone + 6 inches" or "f= Deployement zone - 6 inches"? You OD realize tah "within" in Breakthrough may be understood and translated in the contoext of Deployment zone itself? PLZ do compare written text of breakthrogh and PrtctTerritory  on pgs 68-69 since it really may be misunderstood. 

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Myyrä Grand Master

Myyrä

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My question was: are we talkin' about the distance that is "f= Deployement zone + 6 inches" or "f= Deployement zone - 6 inches"? You OD realize tah "within" in Breakthrough may be understood and translated in the contoext of Deployment zone itself? PLZ do compare written text of breakthrogh and PrtctTerritory  on pgs 68-69 since it really may be misunderstood.

I don't really understand what you are saying, but...

Within is game game term defined in the rulebook (under the rules for range). Deployment zone is an area where the models can be deployed. Combine these two pieces of information, and there is nothing mysterious in the wording of breakthrough.

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paradoxstorm Rising Star

paradoxstorm

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So the so called "wording" (as we call it in Europe) of "Breakthrough is: "1 VP for each Scheme Markers within of 6" of the enemy Deployment zone" while in Protect Territory it sounds: "SM which is at least 6" from its Deployment Zone"  Does this comparison perhaps mean that in Breakthrough those SM should be inside of enemy's Deployment zone?

 

For Breakthrough the SM must be no more than 6" from the enemy deployment zone, so being in the enemy deployment will work as 0" is less then 6".  But SM that are close to the enemy deployment zone, while not actually in the enemy deployment zone, will also count.

 

In this context "within" is meant as a distance of "no more than" rather than "contained in."  

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Myyrä Grand Master

Myyrä

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In this context "within" is meant as a distance of "no more than" rather than "contained in."

Within means what it always means in Malifaux.

 

"Within"

When an Action States that an object must be within a distance, if any portion of that object’s base is at that distance or closer it is considered within the stated distance.

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StuffedKiwi Collaborator

StuffedKiwi

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@Kamtosz: I THINK I understand what you mean, if what you mean is that Breakthrough might be (mis-)understood to mean that the scheme markers must be at least six inches within the deployment zone, i.e., on a close deployment (12 inches from the edge) the markers must be wholly within 6 inches of the edge of the board, and on a normal deployment (6 inches from the edge), there's no way to score Breakthrough, since it's impossible to place markers such that they are within the deployment zone, and no part of them is less than 6 inches from the edge of the zone.

I think I understand your point. But English transitives/intransitives don't work that way (not sure I know a language where they do, but I might be wrong, and I also don't know many languages). What you're suggesting is only expressed by the phrase "six inches within" rather than "within six inches of." So "... this Crew earns 1VP for each of its Scheme Markers within 6" of the enemy Deployment Zone" can only mean that the markers NEED NOT BE in the deployment zone, but must be in an area that includes all of the enemy Deployment Zone, and extends outside of that Deployment Zone by 6 inches. And, as noted above, only some part of the marker must be within that area.

If I've misunderstood what you're saying then just add me to the list of people above who didn't get your point. :)

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Adran Grand Master

Adran

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Sorry I can't see your point.

The Deployment zone is a large area of the board in which you are allowed to deploy your models at the start of the game.

Breakthrough says "...each of its scheme markers within 6" of the enemy deployment zone."

So at the end of the game.yuo can measure and if any point of the marker is within 6" of any point of the deployment zone then it is with in 6". Tjhe Deployment Zone is Not a line on the board that you have to deploy behind, its all the board behind that line.

I can not see any way that could read this rule and read it any other way. I really can't see how you could read it as the marker must be inside the enemy deployment zone and be at least 6" from the edge of the zone.

 

protect Territory

"...scheme markers which is at least 6" from its deploymnet zone..."

I guess they could have written this as each scheme marker whihc is not within 6" of its deployment zoen for consistant writting, but I can't see any way this could be mis understood either .

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Kamtosz Rookie

Kamtosz

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I think I understand your point. But English transitives/intransitives don't work that way (not sure I know a language where they do, but I might be wrong, and I also don't know many languages). What you're suggesting is only expressed by the phrase "six inches within" rather than "within six inches of." 

 

This is exactly the point of my question and a good answer! :) THanks To it I could review the proper part of my descriptive grammar classes ^^

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jonahmaul Veteran

jonahmaul

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Why does it need either of those things?  Breakthrough states that markers have to be within 6" of your opponents deployment zone.  Their deployment zone is 12" which means that 6" from that is 18" which is the halfway point on a 36" board that Malifuax is played on.  Close deployment makes some schemes very easy and others (such as Bodyguard) much more difficult.  It's the reason it only comes out on a Joker and is generally avoided in tournament play.

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Adran Grand Master

Adran

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Yes, if you play a close deployment game, that marker you dropped could be for line in the sand, but it could also be for Breakthrough.

How is this for a picture? 

l 6"    Enemy Deployment

l 6"    End of  enemy deployment zone

l 6"    Area within 6" of deployment - any scheme marker that touches here will be within 6" (as will any marker in the deployment)

l 6 "   Your half the table

l 6"    Your deployment zone

l 6"   Still you deployment zone

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