Jack Daw...Teach Me ALL

[noob]

Love the model.
Love the character's back story.

Love his curses.

 

Bought him.

Bought Hanging Trees (montressor).

Bought The Drowned.

Bought The Hanged.

Bought Jaakuna Ubume.

Bought Papa Loco.

Bought Crooked Men.

 

What else do I need and how do you all find he works best?  I have yet to put him on the table.

 

[deValmont]

  I haven't played JD myself but I have done an awful lot of Theoryfaux with him, and as far as I can tell his two main strong points are his movement abilities (Between him and Montresor you can get Tormented models to move all over the place with very little effort) and the Curse upgrades, which can be a really good way to hold down the big models on the opponent's side. It's all well and good having a bit 50mm greebly stomping round, but if he's haemorrhaging soulstones or cards to keep him alive every time they try and use him then he ends up damaging the whole crew's effectiveness.

 

  In terms of crew selection the only thing I would potentially add is that Nurses are also tormented and are capable of even more double-edged Cuddling (They can give your enemy model +2 to Melee, but they can't walk, or +2 to walk, but they can't fight!)

[valhallan42nd]

Twist and Turn allows for a zero action obey of Tormented Models, and borrowing of their attacks. For me, it's an auto include, as it allows me to move key models at the right time for the cost of a zero action and a seven of any suit.

Writhing Torment is in for similar reasons, as it allows me to move both my own and the enemy's tormented models.

In my lists, I tend to use either Rusty Alyce or Ama no Zako. Rusty works really well, especially if you can fit the Crawling Chaos in the list. Make Rusty Tormented, increasing snares to 4 inches. This forces their big beaters to walk into combat with you instead of charging. Then, you can curse them, and then make the enemy Tormented. Then, once the enemy activates again, you can push *them* via writhing torment, pushing them out of combat. Then then have to walk straight back into combat, making them much less effective. That also works well with Ronin with their built in Disguise.

[noob]

Just read the Pull My Finger on JD.  Very good points in there.  Ama and the Nurses are purchases I need to make.  Thanks for the input on the upgrades! I think I may try him this week, if I can get the models put together.

[valhallan42nd]

I haven't used Ronin in my list yet, but I'm imagining them flurrying against a model that has Firing Squad Injustice on it (+1 damage from attack actions). Ronin with a min three damage that ignores armor seem just really great, especially if they're Tormented, as that means they can be pushed/obeyed into a position to flurry.  And if Lady Liegia is nearby, stopping their ability to cheated against... Well, that's just gravy.

[Arli]

Since there are no models for the Guilty yet, you could proxy just about anything.  I used some Warhammer Flagellants for my Guilty.  They work great, specifically, the guys in stocks.  I have also seen the multi-part sprue used to make some Guilty that are drawn and quartered. 

 

Guilty are a must because you can use them to give out the Tormented Characteristic to other models (yours or your opponents).  You can also use Jack get a 'free' tormented when he copies their share the guilt ability.  If you take Amo No Zako or Hannah, you can even use it with them.

[valhallan42nd]

These are the ones I made.

[Adran]

Currently my Jack daw moment was when I Managed tlo get Firing squad injustice on an enemy Rusty Alyce, then used Twist and turn and made Alyce  Kill the nearby waif, injuring herself thatnks to the firing squad.

[Kalkris]

You know, I've made good use of Daw without even once taking a Guilty or Ligeia, and only once or twice (in prototpye games) hiring Papa Loco. I don't know how necessary they are. My lists generally make use of Auras increased in size by Montresor, so Jaakuna and Drowned are a great call, as are Hanged. I do like a Nurseto hang around Daw for support reasons lol

 

I also think that Writhing Torment is an auto-include as an upgrade, no matter how many opposing models you plan to make Tormented. I might take Guilty if I had non-Tormented models in already, but I've been prioritizing getting a Leve crew together lately and I'd also prefer to have the actual Guilty models anyway

 

Best of Daw's Luck!

 

~Lil Kalki

[zFiend]

Valhallan42nd those are really cool proxies! Really. Wow.

 

Also I don't really have much to say on behalf of Jack as I haven't played him but there's a guy called Spectreelitegaming (I think?). That guy sure seems to know his Daw. If he doesn't reply here, drop him a pm. 

[moxypoo]

I've found that playing Jack is an exercise in presenting your opponent with two types of choices: bad or worse.  Ideally, you want to set the board up in a position that your opponent cannot do anything productive with his/her AP.  Jack's crew has a lot of control elements such as moving enemy models, making it really crappy to be near his models (hazardous terrain, etc.), preventing your opponent from cheating (either directly or by forcing them to discard), and directly punishing enemy models for performing certain actions (Curses, etc.).  

 

Depending on the strategy/scheme pool, you can utilize a combination of these elements to lock down specific models or even areas of the board.  Jack can perform well at most schemes, though I don't prefer him for killing based ones; however, his crew selection will vary greatly depending on what you're trying to accomplish.  For example, with Writhing Torment his crew can be surprisingly fast. I tend to like him for Turf War, Squatter's Rights, and sometimes Reconnoiter. He's actually pretty good at Spring the Trap and Plant Explosives with Last Whisper.  More than a lot of other masters you want to think of Jack's crew as a toolbox in which you have to select the correct tools for the job.

 

I think making everything Tormented is a little bit overrated unless you're looking for very specific interactions, and it's perfectly possible to run non-Tormented models with Jack. Also, be wary of any model with a built in to its attack as it will ignore Oldest Magics.  He also tends to perform better against melee crews, since a lot of his crews debuffs are short range auras.

 

Hopefully, Spectreelitegaming will be in at some point to give you better advice!

[valhallan42nd]

Also, another trick: if you need to put tormented on a Hench/Enforcer, you can apply guillotine injustice to it, which will do nothing to it, other than to give it tormented. I generally only take one guilty, so with twist ant turn I can: use the Guilty to give Tormented, use T&T to Share Guilt with Daw, and then apply Gullotine via Shattered Memories to a friendly in turn one. If I need more than three models in my crew tormented, I've built my list incorrectly. You can also use a Tormented Freikorp trapper to have Jack snipe an enemy at range...

[Hateful Darkblack]

Jack Daw is really a blast to play. Lots of choices, lots of movement, so many surprises.

The important things I try to keep in mind when playing them:

- Remember you have a dozen movement tricks.

- Don't let Jack Daw jump ahead and get killed.

- Cluster up your models into toxic clumps that synergize.

- When an enemy model is important, make it Tormented.

- If you really need to kill something, Jack Daw can Charge, giving Firing Squad Injustice and then taking it away with the second hit for big damage.

Here's a quick video tutorial I did for his base Crew.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Feelings on Jack's totem? I have his old sculpt and the hanging tree and I'm expecting the guilty are going to eventually come out on their own, leaving just her... 

[Kadeton]

You can easily create a proxy for her with the female multipart kit, if that's what you're concerned about.

 

I mean, she's usually off the table by the end of turn 2 anyway, so it's not like the model is particularly important...

[SpiralngCadavr]

Sure, but is she worth taking? For instance, karina was trash before her upgrade- is this a similar situation, is she fine but nothing special, generally worth taking, or is she good but disposable?

[Hateful Darkblack]

I really like Lady Ligeia.

 

She's actually really difficult for an enemy crew to kill if they're mostly melee, because she has a good Df and enemy models can't cheat near her. Shooting and casting models have an easier time killing her.

 

Usually when I use her, I use her to rush up and weaken a key enemy model so that they can't easily resist a devastating attack. When she's next to an enemy, that enemy is really easy to kill or disable with other friendly attackers (Jack can get Curses on it easier, Nurse can load up the debuffs, etc.)

 

It's REALLY irritating to be near her, so often people focus on killing her early. Usually once they realize how much she's hampering them.

 

I think she's worth taking. If you can rush her up and kill one key enemy model, then suck up a more expensive model's activation killing her, she's paid for herself in terms of Soulstone costs.

 

If you leave her exposed she'll die. Often, weirdly, the safest place for her to be is right up in the enemy's face.

[moxypoo]

As usual, HD gives really great advice!

 

I'll emphasize the fact that she's a big target - when I use Lady Liega, she has a giant neon sign over her head reading, "KILL ME FIRST!" You can actually use this to your advantage in a big way by using some fun human psychology.  In my experience, the first time opponents play against her, they don't realize how much it sucks being unable to cheat. So they ignore her for a little while, and you use her to great effect.  However, next time the same opponent plays against Liega, she's target #1.  If you apply just the right amount of resources and clever movement/hiding, you can make the opponent waste an enormous amount of resources (AP, cards, and SS) trying to kill her, even if she isn't really impacting the game much.

 

Liega is definitely worth it in most Jack Daw lists, especially if you're going for a heavy passive control style (i.e. lots of Terrifying and things like that) or just a normal themed list.  However, if you play a heavy discard style, Liega loses value, because being unable to cheat is meaningless if you have no control cards. In that case, it seems like the Malifaux Child is the better totem choice.

[valhallan42nd]

There's a reason Lady L moves 6: so she can push three, move six, and go defensive. Being DF6 with a   next to a big beater is kind of ideal. Keep her in cover as well, and she'll be a nightmare to dislodge. She's worth the points, and I take her almost every time.

Ronin and/or Rusty Alyce help make her even more survivable by denying charges.

I played with a Ronin against my friend's ressers, and having Tormented on them was brilliant. My opponent moved izamu to where he thought he was safe, but I was able to get Daw over there to get the Firing Line injustice on him on my last regular AP. I (0) cast Twist and Turn on the Ronin to move her up close, activated her next, Writhing Torment pushed her into Melee range, flurried, and took the big guy down. In turn, Izamu hit her like a ton of bricks for his special death action, got her down to HtK, so I zeroed to get my two SS back.

I'll trade a ronin for Izamu every time.

[Kalkris]

There's nothing more I enjoy in a Jack Daw scheme pool than Plant Explosives or Spring the Trap. Take a Crooked Man or two, use your Master in proximity to where you want to place schemes to (0) the death + discard = marker effect, run a Crooked Man in and drop a marker. Then kill it and discard a card. It's funnier if they try to use something like Cursed Object or Distract on it in the meantime because it's going to die anyway, netting you 3 markers and a hopefully assured Sprung Trap. But with this in mind, make sure you take models that cost more than 5ss in a Kill Protege-involved pool. But that said, one probably will anyway

 

The Drowned are fun with Jaakuna but I have found less reliance on them lately. That said, they would also be fun with Ama No Zako if you Torment her.

 

I don't use The Guilty, as I think I mentioned above. I don't see a huge need unless the Curses aren't enough Torment for the table, and due to the table's state consistently, I have never fielded a single model of The Guilty. But with that in mind, I have heard good things about it.

 

Lady Ligeia seems fragile but it makes sense that she is a huge area debuff and an obstacle rather than a fighter. Good to put her in melee, although I still haven't ever used her.

 

The Hanged should be a primary scare tactic. Just be wary of using themor Montresor too aggressively in a Vendetta or Kill Protege pool.

 

Nurses are great! They are so hard to take down in my experience using them. Hands Off! is a fantastic trigger for the Nurses and either handing out Paralyzed or healing something that needs healing is a great way to ruin an opponent's day. I recall using them in a different crew, and I managed to give Von Schill Downers AND Paralyze him in a single swoop and I was so pleased with this. Nurses are a great next purchase.

 

Papa Loco seems like a bit of a trap, IMHO. I think beyond his buff he is a liability. The Hold This buff is great but when he goes (taking friend and foe alike with him, mostl likely), he is gone. I don't much care for him.

 

Montresor is fun for various reasons involving the good old cuddle puddle he wishes to create. Again, high-cost model so it's not the best tactic for a Kill Protege pool, but his character-specific upgrade wrecks face alongside his Nimble (I like this for Deliver A Message if you can get through a Master's WP, which by then SHOULD be at at least a -3 from Tormented status, and if not at least a -1 from sheer proximity).

 

I should really get me an Ama No Zako. I've been meaning to for a few months now Get one yourself, along with a box of Nurses!

 

~Lil Kalki

[Victoria]

My advice about Jack Daw:  Don't play him against a newbie or someone who gets their feelings hurt easily.

 

I've seen a lot of people have a very negative experience when playing against Jack Daw.  Super fun to play, not so fun to play against for many people! 

[Kalkris]

My advice about Jack Daw:  Don't play him against a newbie or someone who gets their feelings hurt easily.

 

I've seen a lot of people have a very negative experience when playing against Jack Daw.  Super fun to play, not so fun to play against for many people! 

Do you have any particular examples of this potential NPE of which you speak? Like, what does Daw do to ruin peoples' fun?

[Victoria]

I saw him played against a very new player (only three or four games in to Malifaux) and when you are still learning the game having to deal with those curses is just a really negative experience. I say give new players some time to get comfortable with their crew before we start giving it curses. The player in question nearly wanted to quit the game.

 

I admit I do not have fun when playing against Jack Daw. I'm not sure why, I'm not a sore loser, I just really don't like playing against him. The games make me grumpy, and I'm not usually that sort of a person when I am playing.  I don't mind losing - I don't mind getting slaughtered.  I LOVE this game!  Jack Daw is the only one who does it to me.  I wish I could figure it out. 

[Kalkris]

I saw him played against a very new player (only three or four games in to Malifaux) and when you are still learning the game having to deal with those curses is just a really negative experience. I say give new players some time to get comfortable with their crew before we start giving it curses. The player in question nearly wanted to quit the game.

 

I admit I do not have fun when playing against Jack Daw. I'm not sure why, I'm not a sore loser, I just really don't like playing against him. The games make me grumpy, and I'm not usually that sort of a person when I am playing.  I don't mind losing - I don't mind getting slaughtered.  I LOVE this game!  Jack Daw is the only one who does it to me.  I wish I could figure it out. 

 

I can understand a new player not wanting to deal with the curses provided by Jack Daw.

 

The second point makes a degree of sense - Daw's constant state of defensiveness combined with his overall discouragement to have his crew be attacked ultimately is a discouraging thing, if you pardon my redundancy. He's about as resilient as Seamus (which is darned resilient), and he hits like a sock with a brick in it being thwapped repeatedly against a given head. Plus you'd be hard-pressed to get a model away from Daw's line of work since his crew is so mobile thanks to his upgrade (and their own tricks). I think I see your pain.

 

I do have a fair amount of questions for you though, Viktoria, just so I can further grasp your level of frustration. Forgive me if I sound like I am interrogating you (and others, feel free to answer these questions yourselves!):

 

1) How many games of Malifaux do you typically play per week?

2) How many games of Malfiaux do you typically play against Jack Daw per week?

3) What faction(s) do you profess in primarily?

4) What crew(s) have you fielded against Jack Daw crews?

5) How many players own a Jack Daw crew in your circle?

6) How many players only own a Jack Daw crew in your circle?

7) What is your rough overall win/loss ratio against Jack Daw?

8) If you have ever won against a Jack Daw crew, what crew(s) of yours have achieved this?

9) Why is Jack Daw an NPE? (reiterate for posterity please)

 

For me, I can't really answer much as I am the only Jack Daw player in my circle, but I can add another line of questions for those who generally main with Daw:

1) How many games of Malifaux do you typically play per week?

2) How many games of Malfiaux do you typically play using Jack Daw per week?

3) What faction(s) do you profess in primarily?

4) What crew(s) have been fielded against your Jack Daw crew? How many wins or losses against those crews?

5) How many other players own a Jack Daw crew in your circle?

6) How many players only own a Jack Daw crew in your circle? Include yourself if applicable.

7) What is your rough overall win/loss ratio using Jack Daw?

8) If you have ever lost using a Jack Daw crew, what crew(s) used in your circle have achieved this?

9) Have there ever been complaints about your use of Jack Daw's crew? What were they?

 

My answers as a Jack Daw player:

1) 0-2

2) Fluctuates - I have played Daw about 7-8 times since Wave 2 Beta ended

3) Outcasts, with Neverborn in secondary

4) Ramos (win x1), Seamus (win x3), Misaki (loss x1), The Dreamer (loss x1), Nicodem (win x1), others (which I can't recall at the moment)

5) 0

6) 0 - I personally have many other crews.

7) as stated in #4, it's around 5:2, barring forgotten games

8) The Dreamer fielded by MyMetalPony; Misaki fielded by Rathnard

9) The Seamus player I have faced does not like Daw at all. He only has Seamus and McMourning, and only uses Seamus of the two, so he is limited in what he can do - he says that Daw is too resilient and will not go down, which, based on how I play him, is very likely to be true in a given game.

 

Honestly, Jack Daw is very low on interaction-denial pieces on-theme. He can have Rat Kings - heck, he can have 2x Malifaux Rat + Obedient Wretch and have 10 activations! - but he doesn't do it in-theme. If possible, a good weakness to exploit is his inability to thematically (key being casual players often go for theme) deal with objective runners so long as one doesn't run them into the middle. So play Breakthrough, Outflank, Power Ritual, and their ilk. The ones to likely avoid in this respect may be Protect Territory or A Line in the Sand because those are closer to the action.

 

That advice, IMHO, I hope helps you. But please, let me know this information because I'd like to hear more so I can get a better feel for what is wrong. Things will get better.

 

~Lil Kalki

[Victoria]

I don't think neccesarily that Jack Daw is wrong... I think the idea around it is fantastic.  Its a great theme for a crew, and I don't neccesarily think it is overpowered or anything.  I just can honestly say that I don't enjoy a game against Jack Daw.  

 

1) How many games of Malifaux do you typically play per week?  2 - 4, depending on the week.

2) How many games of Malfiaux do you typically play against Jack Daw per week?  0.  He just isn't played widely in our local meta.  A few players have tried him out.  If a player was playing Jack Daw constantly, I would avoid playing with them for my own fun-level.

3) What faction(s) do you profess in primarily?  All factions.  I dabble in everything, I'm good at nothing.  

4) What crew(s) have you fielded against Jack Daw crews?  Kaeris, Viks, Molly.

5) How many players own a Jack Daw crew in your circle? We proxy for unreleased models.  I think only two have tested him out.  I think I'm the only one who actually owns the Jack Daw model.    I was very interested in learning him when he first came out, then changed my mind.

6) How many players only own a Jack Daw crew in your circle?  None.  If there was someone that ONLY had Jack Daw, I would probably still play against them occasionally, just to include them.

7) What is your rough overall win/loss ratio against Jack Daw? 0/2.  The third game I forfeited before round one was over because I just wasn't having fun.

8) If you have ever won against a Jack Daw crew, what crew(s) of yours have achieved this? n/a

9) Why is Jack Daw an NPE? (reiterate for posterity please)  I just feel demoralized when the curses get slapped on my models.   I don't like feeling like I have a constant upward climb.  I also realize after speaking with my husband just now that I have had Jack Daw being played improperly for several of these games.  Jack Daw was pushing whenever a cursed model activated near him.  He just said that is incorrect?  I don't know, I don't have the cards.  Anyhow, getting all those curses on my models in round one is not fun.