Lucius crew and the wicked Lilith

[Erik1978]

I'm still new at Malifaux, have a lot of miniatures though, keep wanting to try new things.

 

It seems a crew is a bit fragile if it only has shooting since a lot of models can get into melee without ever being in range of a shot. 

 

So here's the question, will this fairly shooty-non-melee crew stand a chance or should I include a counter attacking punch too?

 

It also seems to me that Lucius is one of the weakest Masters out there, with no defensive skills of any kind and not a lot of wounds? What kind of role should he have since Melee is something he seems good at but he can't take a lot of beating?

 

Here is the 50 SS:

 

Lucius with a few upgrades

Scribe

Captain Dashel

Guild Sergeant

3 Guild Riflemen

Guild Guard

Lone Marshal

 

Too shooty and therefore too weak against fast moving hard hitters?

 

 

I've played about 12 games so far and I've only seen a few things I think seem a bit out of balance in this game. One thing though, seems VERY unbalanced but perhaps I'm missing something (I hope so) and that something you might be able to point out for me?

 

Lilith with Beckon Malifaux, Living Blade, and Wicked Mistress seems like a crazy point and click combination!?!

 

She throws down a forest that nobody can see through, except her, when she wants to use Ca Tranfixing gaze to pull people into her forest, where they will first take some damage and become slow, and then she whacks them (some times for free) with a VERY powerful living blade.

There doesn't seem to be any counter measure to this? If I'm within 12" of Lilith (which is quite a long threat range) she can pull me near and decapitate me. If I try to out maneuver her, she can simply move and throw the forest in a new location. Lilith at the center of the table, behind her magic forest is quite a big area I have to avoid.

I can't shoot her, I can't charge her, I can't target her with Ca actions... what can I do? 

[HowNot2Wargame]

Lone marshal should be able to flank then push shoot, push back, but if you have them... This is a scenario perfect for austringers and I hardly use them.

Personally I quite like a peace keeper or an executioner or even graves with Lucius. Walk twice forward and then what lackies are for can be great. Thing to remember is that they are a counter attacking piece so don't leave them to far out.

The other counter to the forests is of course lady justice with last sytand if you are willing to try that

[bertmac]

To be fair the only model in that crew that she can pull to attack from 12" away is the lone Marshall everything else has a charge of 6 or less so she needs to get in closeish.

Shoot the rest of her crew then tie her up with lucius handing out - flips via red tape or discarding low cards. Dashel if he can hit her will do plenty of damage too!

[admiralvorkraft]

A couple of things, coming from someone who has struggled and struggled with Lucius;

 

First, Lucius isn't fragile. His crew is, but hang on to some low cards for Highest Authority and he will laugh off a surprising number of attacks.

 

Second, there are a couple of issues with that crew. The first is only one Guild Guard - they get massively better with a friend around, ask any Arcanist how good a 4 stone Df 6 model with armor is. Also, Lucius needs a Lawyer around. Right now the Sergeant is passing out your Wp buff, but the Lawyer is tougher, provides high Ca attacks against Wp (which Lilith HATES) and provides the Wp buff to non-Guardsmen which gives you greater flexibility in crew construction, and most importantly, is a Minion. Of course Austringers really are that good, like don't-bring-two-if-you-want-to-keep-your-friends good.

 

Final note; it's easy to think that Lucius' primary ability is Issue Command. In your next game try limiting yourself to walking, That's What Lackey's Are For and attacks. Only Issue Command if you have a really great opportunity and the cards in hand to make it happen. That's what finally made him click for me. Lucius is also a master that forces you to play really "good" Malifaux. A lot of masters can let you play murder-the-other-crew and give you time left over to quick finish up your schemes. Lucius doesn't. That means that everything you do needs to be focused on scoring you points. If Lilith is sitting in the middle of the board eating one model a turn then unless it's Turf War/Reckoning/Make Them Suffer she's not scoring any points. Work around her. 

 

Lucius is not an easy master to play, he is certainly the trickiest Guild master to get the hang of, and you will usually lose most of your crew. But if you concentrate on scoring your points you can almost always win anyway.

[Carcosa]

Ditch the lone marshal and hire hans or nino and shoot her from 36" away.

[Dirial]

Ditch the lone marshal and hire hans or nino and shoot her from 36" away.

 

Especially Hans.

[Carcosa]

Smile you son of a.............

[Dirial]

Smile you son of a.............

 

Yeah right. Mainly the Goggles, though.

[Myyrä]

I would bring some (1-2) death marshals. They will force Lilith to consider twice how close she can come. Austringers could help too, being able to ignore LoS and whatnot.

[zFiend]

I would bring some (1-2) death marshals. They will force Lilith to consider twice how close she can come. Austringers could help too, being able to ignore LoS and whatnot.

 

Good advice. Death Marshals should scare Lilith right off. Lucius can even make them do more than they usually can with Issue Command and Commanding Presence making them even more scarier to Lilith. 

[Myyrä]

Good advice. Death Marshals should scare Lilith right off. Lucius can even make them do more than they usually can with Issue Command and Commanding Presence making them even more scarier to Lilith.

Lucius can command the Death Marshals to go and box something or he can spirit them to safety after they have caught something. He is possibly the best master to make use of Death Marshals.

[zFiend]

Lucius can command the Death Marshals to go and box something or he can spirit them to safety after they have caught something. He is possibly the best master to make use of Death Marshals.

 

And Lilith is probably one of the best targets for Pinebox as it happens.  

[Dirial]

And Lilith is probably one of the best targets for Pinebox as it happens.

 

[zFiend]

Ohoy! We have Loki! You missed a Walter moment there though.  

[Dirial]

Bottom line form my perspective:

 

Your list lacks something to make Lilith sweat. You are correct, with your current load out, Lilith can stay pretty well protected and still disrupt you. That doesn't necessarily mean you'll lose. The rest of her crew is still there, and she cannot decide the game alone, but still...

 

Adding a Lawyer and some Death Marshals, probably Hans, and practising with Lucius might give you a way better chance.

[Carcosa]

Frankie in a box!!

Lucius commands a DM to box franike, move up marshal, release Frankie, box lilith and el mayor the marshal and giggle while WP 5 lil is trying to get out of WP8 marshal's box.

[MasterDisaster]

To be fair pre-made lists rarely stand a chance against an opponent who makes their list tailored to the strategy and schemes. However Pineboxing Masters is always a giggle!

[Erik1978]

Thanks for the Lucius and crew pointers, can't wait to try him!  

 

I might not have been clear, I want to know what to do about Lilith "overall" not with Lucius specifically. I mostly play Nicodem.

 

If Lilith is sitting in the middle of the board eating one model a turn then unless it's Turf War/Reckoning/Make Them Suffer she's not scoring any points. Work around her.

 

 

One of the problems with going around her or "staying out of range" is that she can simply move forward, put down the forest closer to me, and work from there.

 

I don't see how anything but Austringers (which really DO seem awesome!  ) can do anything about her since no one else can Cast of Shoot at her if they can't see her? Lucius does have that commanding presence but that would still take some lining up with a death marshall, to get that working. What can a guy like Nicodem do? Or Kaeris? We can't really get near or just run towards her to engage her and "keep her busy" because of how hard she is hitting. Damn you Lilith...

[Dirial]

Justice, Sonnia and Hans all have ways to deal with the forest.

[Carcosa]

@Erik1978

Anyone can hire Hans for 9ss, so if you are expecting a heavy melee hitter he could be worth it.

As for nicodem, I am not really a resser player, but summoning a lot of disposable minions to make Lillith waster her AP's is always a way to deal with melee heavy hitters. Canine remains digging up bones to drop corpse counters all over the place with maniacal laugh could be an option. Nurses to paralyze with take your meds could also be an option.

[Erik1978]

Nurses still need that pesky LoS which they never have (when it comes to Lilith). 

 

I have to check out that Hans guy! Mindless Zombies could also be a plan.

[MasterDisaster]

Hans is the boss when it comes to Snipers. His Goggles ignore the Forest and he has a Trigger for every suit. The only "downside" is Lilith can drop 2 cards to make his attacks against her automatically fail but then again that's 2 less cards in her hand. She is Df 7 though so most of the time she will just laugh off the shot. 

[4thstringer]

A couple things. 

 

1. Lucius is not a melee master, he is control.  He can move your models to where they need to be (i.e. so their line of sight isn't blocked by the forest), he can tank using his melee triggers and highest authority, and he can help you concentrate fire where you need to by providing extra actions.    Thats what lackeys are for and commanding presence are the best abilities on his card.

 

2. Lawyer>Sarge in all situations but plant explosives and maybe spring the trap (and maybe not then due to finish the job).  Only Exception I can think of is as a scheme runner with plant evidence upgrade..

 

3.  You mentioned that you are taking a couple upgrades with Lucius.  Rarely worth it in my opinion, especially since it doesn't look like one of those is Surprisingly loyal to bring some mimics.

 

4. Keep in mind what people have said above, especially about choosing after schemes and strats are decided, but also what terrain there is.  If there are not good LOS lanes, a fairly static gunline model like the Riflemen may struggle. 

4.  I don't like to play without at least 1 melee beatsick.  Frank would certainly fill that spot, but I like to go all out with Peacekeeper or Ryle.  Failing that I would at least include 2 of either the hunter, the wardens or the Witchling stalkers. 

 

5. I haven't played against people using lilith in this manner, but I might try this- Beat her to the middle.  Use thats what lackeys are for to put a relatively tough model into the middle of the board, but preferably with some cover.  (I have used Ryle for this a lot in other matchups, because the enemy needs to deal with him due to his shooting and large threat range, and his def  trigger makes him a load to bring down). 

[Erik1978]

Thanks for all the good advice  , I did have my eye on Ryle and that Peacekeeper. Now those Riflemen and Lone Marshal just need to arrive and I can start playing. 

[admiralvorkraft]

I would disagree slightly with the upgrades point. I always run with Secret Assets - Hidden Sniper is extremely useful in pretty much any match-up. I'll also bring Legalese against Outcasts (because giving Lucius the option to use the Steam Trunk is too funny for words) and if I think my opponent is going to go for breakthrough.

 

I never take Surprisingly Loyal in Guild anymore. It's lovely in Neverborn, but there just aren't good Mimic minions other than the Lawyer which he can take anyway.