Are the Vicky's Weak?

[Adran]

Since the topic here is the viks then ill go ahead and ask a question ive been wondering about for a while. If not running a malifaux child....have you viks players been running sisters in fury? Im finding that i actually use it less and less as i play more and 2 stones is a hefty investment for something hardly used. It seems that one the rare occasion i do get it off it tends to be overkill. What is the consensous at large, worth it or no?

If you put this upgrade on Vik of Blood, then Hannah can cast it.

 

I learnt the rule of thumb in the first edition, that it was a worthwhile AP, if it got me the bonus for at least  2 attacks.

There are times when that ap is better used else where, and the rough rule above doesn't always apply, but 1 AP for 4 damage is pretty solid. If I can get it to work twice a game, then its probably worth the SS.

 

And its pretty funny when your student of Conflict suddenly gets 3 attacks with a weak damage 4...

[Seregon]

I'll usually go for Fury. 2 SS is usually worth it for the +2 dmg (especially when used with Hannah).

 

On the other hand I never take Battle. While I would pay 1 SS for accomplice/companion I won't pay 2 to get that plus the flip.

[SuperFly TNT]

I prefer Synchronized Slaying/Sisters in Battle at this point. The  flip affects all Sister attacks, so Ashes and Vanessa get it for their range attacks. Also if you do Dragon's Bite or Flight of Dragons (which have a Damage built in) all those attacks also benefit.

 

I rarely use the Accomplice anymore, but it's a nice option if you're manuevering for a slingshot/Charge or chaining Dragon's Bite/Flight.

[Myth]

I pretty much always take Fury - even though I tend to build my crew more towards ranged combat. I either use Blood as a rocket to take out some key targets (and accept that she will perish after doing so), or I keep her back as a counter-assault unit. Fury is pretty hard to pass up - even a single turn with it active, along with the other sister buffs, is enough to clear out darn near anything in the game... if your opponent lets you get in position to take advantage of it. Now, I'm often not using it for Ash herself - she will usually cast the buffs so that Blood can go to town with 3-4 attacks of her own.

 

Anyway, I'll side with most of the other opinions in this thread - the Viks aren't underpowered, but they are tricky to play. Or rather, they are very unforgiving to play - your 'Master' consists of two relatively fragile models who are often loaded with 8 SS worth of upgrades. Leave one exposed at the wrong time, and they die, and if you were relying on them for your plans, suddenly things fall apart. Especially if you've invested another 20-30 SS into support models (Vanessa, Hannah, Malifaux Child, Librarian) who no longer combo quite as well without being able to share and copy buffs and healing. Alongside their fragility, they also require you to be somewhat careful with positioning (for their auras and movement tricks), as well as cards in hand (for their various defensive buffs), plus usually keep hold of a decent cache of Soulstones, simply to keep them alive. So all of that can make for some tricky juggling if you just expect them to charge at the enemy and kill everything they encounter.

 

Still, I think they are a solid choice once you know how to use them. Whether you focus on the synergy and build the crew around it - in which case they lend themselves to extreme results, either wiping out the enemy by turn 3, or losing the Viks and having the rest of the crew fall apart without them. Or you can build them towards a more versatile crew where you don't go chasing the enemy but instead let them come to you - or let the Viks serve as a deterrent and claim an area of the board while the opponent refuses to engage.

[Kadeton]

Haven't been watching this forum for a while, so I'm late to the conversation, but here's my take:

 

The Viks aren't underpowered, in my opinion, but they do tend towards extremely binary outcomes early in games that can easily lead to the perception of being underpowered.

 

Fundamentally, if you can manipulate the game into a beneficial situation, the Viks are almost disgustingly overpowered. They have a huge threat range and an extremely reliable damage output that's higher than anything else in the game by a large margin. This makes them the #1 All-Time Noobstomping Champions of the game, which is a bit unfortunate - new Viks players in a group often dominate early, skill up less quickly than their regular opponents, and then struggle to catch up once slingshot counters become apparent. 

 

However, if luck turns against you for even a short period, or an unforeseen factor throws a spanner in the works, they can collapse so fast that all you can do is survey the wreckage and shake your opponent's hand.

 

That's the Viks' basic tradeoff, to my mind - enormous but extremely volatile power. The outcome of a game will often be determined by a single initiative flip, which could happen as early as turn 2. I wouldn't take them to a tournament any more, not because they're not powerful enough, but because they're not consistent enough.

 

Every aspect of 'advanced' Viks play boils down to managing their volatility, creating more consistent outcomes. They have plenty going for them aside from the slingshot (one of their most volatile tactics, in my opinion) - they get so much leverage from the threat of their killing power that it doesn't actually matter if they never really deploy it. Just having them on the table tends to remove almost all support mechanics that rely on close proximity from the enemy crew. Spread out? A lone Viktoria can cut through almost any other lone model without breaking stride, and still be in range for a devastating combined assault if the opportunity arises.

 

One comment that amused me in the thread was that Leveticus can easily kill a Vik in a single activation, and "few Masters can get taken down that quickly." I can say from extensive experience - with a few notable exceptions, Leveticus can kill basically any Master in a single activation without breaking much of a sweat. So can the Viktorias - but you'd never take them for Assassinate, because it's so easy to pick against them in return.

[daniello_s]

Why not for Assassinate? You slingshot Blood into opponent Master's face and keep Ash behind

[Kirby]

Spending the entire game hiding a 7 wound, no defensive ability model doesn't tend to be a good use of your Master, especially one that excels in melee combat.

[daniello_s]

Who said about hiding? You screen her with other models and charge with her when it is wise to do so. Use soft/hard cover, have Vanessa or Librarian (or both) nearby to heal her if needed.

I've played Viks several time with Assassinate available and lost her only once

[Kadeton]

Not for Assassinate mainly because Leveticus is better. He requires no playstyle modification for a complete denial of the scheme, while being just as good at achieving it against most opponents. You can put effort into keeping Ash alive, but some crews will trivially kill her regardless of how safe you want her to be - it's mainly that the transition between 'alive' and 'dead' for Ash is almost instantaneous, based on one or two unlucky flips.

 

I actually most enjoy taking the Viks in situations where there are no kill-based objectives. It tends to mean that the enemy crew has been picked more for mobility and resilience than killing power, which is an environment in which the Viks absolutely shine.

[Math Mathonwy]

I can say from extensive experience - with a few notable exceptions, Leveticus can kill basically any Master in a single activation without breaking much of a sweat.

Really? That sounds maybe a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think? I mean, if we consider a Master in full health (or even just nearly full) with access to their usual defensive measures I would be somewhat surprised if Levi could consistently kill even half of the Masters in the game with a single activation. Unless I'm missing something really strange here...

[zFiend]

Well he has a trigger that the damage can't be prevented but was the damage really enough?

[Math Mathonwy]

Well he has a trigger that the damage can't be prevented but was the damage really enough?

For fun, I thought about Levi against Gremlins Masters:

Somer: Very difficult unless positioned very carefully due to the Loudest Squeel.

Ophelia: Similarly extremely difficult due to the Second Loudest Squeel. Also very likely to have Liquid Courage further hampering Levi.

Brewmaster: Yeah, sure.

Wong: Utterly impossible, basically.

Zoraida: Almost impossible.

Ulix: Impossible to Wound makes it difficult. Wall of Pork might also.

Mah: Yeah, sure.

So two are feasible, two are almost impossible and three are surely difficult. I'm guessing that other factions would yield somewhat similar results.

[Bengt]

Why is Wong impossible? All masters with Counterspel would be an uphill battle, but if Leveticus both stones and cheats he can still get his nasty triggers. Though we are pretty far from "not breaking a sweat" at that point I think.

[Math Mathonwy]

Why is Wong impossible? All masters with Counterspel would be an uphill battle, but if Leveticus both stones and cheats he can still get his nasty triggers. Though we are pretty far from "not breaking a sweat" at that point I think.

Counterspell, Armor (or does Levi ignore Armor?), high Wp, and a high possibility of Liquid Bravery (I know I take it for him a lot of the time).

I dunno, I have found Wong to be one of the most durable Masters in the game.

[Bengt]

Unmaking ignores reduction, HtK and HtW.

[Math Mathonwy]

Unmaking ignores reduction, HtK and HtW.

Oh aye, but it does help a (tiny) bit against Death Touch. I really don't see Wong falling to just Unmaking - heck, to simply chew through his 12 wounds you would need to do severe three times in a row hitting the no prevention Trigger each time against Wp 7 through Counterspell.

Probably nearly impossible even without Liquid Bravery and with Fast from Oath Keeper.

[Myyrä]

Unnatural Wasting: After flipping or cheating moderate or severe damage, this Attack deals an amount of damage to the target equal to half of the target's current remaining Wounds (rounded up) instead of its usual damage.

 

That is the real reason Leveticus can kill almost any master in one activation. Also, it isn't even close to impossible for him to kill Zoraida in melee in one activation without oathkeeper.

[Bengt]

Unnatural Wasting: After flipping or cheating moderate or severe damage, this Attack deals an amount of damage to the target equal to half of the target's current remaining Wounds (rounded up) instead of its usual damage.

 

That is the real reason Leveticus can kill almost any master in one activation. Also, it isn't even close to impossible for him to kill Zoraida in melee in one activation without oathkeeper.

If he is using his Ml I'd expect Zoraida to stone for her Df trigger ending his Activation.

[Myyrä]

If he is using his Ml I'd expect Zoraida to stone for her Df trigger ending his Activation.

Right, I didn't remember what the trigger did correctly.

[Kadeton]

The Masters I find he has trouble with are those with Counterspell or Impossible to Wound. I'm discounting the use of defensive abilities that put the target out of range - that's a positional issue which is too complex to be considered in theoryfaux.

 

Gremlins were an interesting group to look at, because they include all the abilities that make Levy's life difficult - Impossible to Wound, Counterspell, and even the outlier of Zoraida's massive Wp (plus several repositions). Real factions are generally not so fortunate.

[Math Mathonwy]

Unnatural Wasting: After flipping or cheating moderate or severe damage, this Attack deals an amount of damage to the target equal to half of the target's current remaining Wounds (rounded up) instead of its usual damage.

Incorrect: his normal version does four points and with a different trigger can't be prevented using Soul Stones. This one can be prevented using Soul Stones. A Master with 12 Wounds would be taking six preventing, on average, two and thus netting the exact same four damage (though naturally using up an SS from the opponent). A full health Lady Justice naturally would be taking seven so there it would be a good idea dealing one extra point of damage on average.

 

That is the real reason Leveticus can kill almost any master in one activation.

Go on, try it. Run us through the likely outcomes against various Masters. The "almost" part of the "almost any" gets mighty big mighty fast, you'll see

[Math Mathonwy]

The Masters I find he has trouble with are those with Counterspell or Impossible to Wound. I'm discounting the use of defensive abilities that put the target out of range - that's a positional issue which is too complex to be considered in theoryfaux.

If you say so - I still think that it is a powerful defensive ability since they can Squeel any which way and I would posit that two such Squeels are enough to break LOS or get out of range in most situations.

 

Gremlins were an interesting group to look at, because they include all the abilities that make Levy's life difficult - Impossible to Wound, Counterspell, and even the outlier of Zoraida's massive Wp (plus several repositions). Real factions are generally not so fortunate.

Ressers then (my other main faction).

Seamus: extremely difficult.

Nicodem: almost impossible.

McMourning: doable but he has 14 Wounds so not easy.

Tara: Yeah, sure. Though 12 Wounds and Wp 7 against Ca attacks.

Molly: Possible due to her low wound count. But ItW means that it takes some doing.

Kirai: almost impossible due to her Trigger if there is a Spirit or two nearby.

Yan Lo: easy access to ItW again.

So one where it's somewhat easy, one where it's difficult and then five where it's almost impossible.

And even the "easy" ones are situations where you need to hit every time against a defensive stat the same or one lower than your attack stat and then do Severe every time.

Let's do one more: Outcasts.

Misaki: Sure. She has quite a few Wounds and Wp 7 but this is doable.

Tara: the exact same.

Von Schill: I'm beginning to see a pattern here...

Hamelin: Impossible.

Leve: Impossible.

Jack Daw: Really difficult.

Victoria: Now this is actually easy. Almost trivial.

So one truly easy, three "easy" ones and one very difficult one with two impossibles.

So his total track record for three Factions is now:

Trivial: 1

"Easy": 6 (not counting Tara twice)

Really difficult: 8

Almost or totally impossible: 5

So yeah, "almost any" might be overstating it.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm not seeing why Seamus is just difficult while most of the other resser masters are close to impossible. One of Seamus big things that he pays alot for on his card is durability. If he isn't the hardest to kill there is something wrong.

[zFiend]

I'm not seeing why Seamus is just difficult while most of the other resser masters are close to impossible. One of Seamus big things that he pays alot for on his card is durability. If he isn't the hardest to kill there is something wrong.

I agree.

[Bengt]

@Kadeton How often do you actually kill Masters from full health? I can totally see how Leveticus can finish off Masters that have taken a few wounds be still have enough left to feel safe under normal circumstances. But there are a lot Master that could make you whiff one or two attacks in one way or another.