Why exactly would you take the Dead Rider?

[Math Mathonwy]

In my experience, in most games the most crucial turns are the second and the third. First is often the calm before the storm and on fifth turn most games have been decided - sometimes on fourth already. Yet the Dead Rider needs to get into the thick of things and isn't very durable on turn two. Turn three he starts getting there but if he was damaged before, he can be whittled to death somewhat easily.

His damage track, though nice, is nothing spectacular and actually sorta sad for his points cost. And he needs a card to do get that third attack. So his big draw seems to be his Pushes and they are certainly nice enough. Especially with his long reach. But the way it works, it isn't all that superb in, e.g., cleaning up Turf War zone or stuff like that.

Then there's the Horror duel stuff. Paralyze is strong but OTOH being dead is even stronger and beatsticks of this caliber tend to excel in that.

So yeah - committing him full on early seems like it would get him killed while as a flanker he is very expensive and a Rogue Necromancy does the job a lot better.

So yeah, do you find him useful or is he overshadowed by Izamu and Valedictorian and Rogue Necromancy?

[zFiend]

Haha, so you took it to the world. Good, as I am really interested in this.

[Dirial]

I suggested Yan Lo, as he can give him the Armor he needs to survive Turn 1 commitment, and doesn't really care what he runs.

 

Don't really know why he wouldn't just take Izamu or Yin, but hey, who even plays Resser in the first place?

[zFiend]

Well first of, the question is dead rider. Second the bigger question is, why would you take Yan Lo? And if someone did that, throwing the master power to the garbage, why would they waste another 13ss? That must be the worst list ever.. Math I have list for you!

[MasterDisaster]

To be honest after a quick review of all the 10+ss options within the Resser faction I can't see myself ever taking the Dead Rider over a Rogue Necro, Valedictorian or Izamu. Not only are they all 2ss cheaper, they are all more reliable, deal more damage or can take more punishment. I could only see myself taking this guy in a Leve crew and even then he'd be the last one I hire over Pale, Mech and Hooded. For 12 SS you've gotta be a particularly amazing model and this guy doesn't seem very amazing at all. 

[Dirial]

Well first of, the question is dead rider. Second the bigger question is, why would you take Yan Lo? And if someone did that, throwing the master power to the garbage, why would they waste another 13ss? That must be the worst list ever.. Math I have list for you!

 

[valhallan42nd]

You take him because his damage also comes with massive, massive repositioning, and repositioning can win you games.

I was playing a game with Tara, and I was stuck in combat with Ashes and Dust, and I needed to get Tara free to run schemes, and DF 5 against ML 7 was getting me nowhere for several turns. I ended up charging her with Dead Rider, and got her out of there with the attacks and taxied her to the enemy deployment zone.

[MasterDisaster]

You take him because his damage also comes with massive, massive repositioning, and repositioning can win you games.

I was playing a game with Tara, and I was stuck in combat with Ashes and Dust, and I needed to get Tara free to run schemes, and DF 5 against ML 7 was getting me nowhere for several turns. I ended up charging her with Dead Rider, and got her out of there with the attacks and taxied her to the enemy deployment zone.

 

True that the movement is a great bonus however Rotten Belles are also dirt cheap and could achieve the same effect without having to blow 12ss. I don't think I've ever seen a Resser crew without Belles however I've never seen a Resser crew with a Rider.

[Kogan Style]

I'm looking to take the Rider in an upcoming tournament (anyone who read "Whats floating in your pool" will know) and I initially did some side-by-side comparison of the Ressur's big three (and found I preferred Ama no Zako over all of them )

I think with Reckoning, the Rider will help nail that elusive second model as Reckoning crews tend to be a small number of elite models that the opponent will not simply feed you, mobility is required and the Dead Man's push can really help draw the keystone model away from a bubble of protection ready to get them turned into a corpse (like Mr Tannen)

 

Taxi-pushing is also handy for Recon for additional pushes late in the turn; and Interference as you can push your model away from engagement, but keep the enemy model within the Dead Rider's. A belle could do the same, but won't hit for 3 dmg every time. 

 

Of all the options available to Ressurs (10+ss) The Rider has the greatest threat range - 13" or  15" with spell  to Izamu's 11" as well as being unimpeded, granted Val does have Flight. It also has the highest WP of all the options: 6 vs 5. It has the same damage track as Izamu and only the Rogue has a better one: 3/5/6. I think Val's 2/3/6 is not as good due to the unlikeness of getting severe flips often enough to make a difference. The Rogue has a better Ml 7 vs others 6 but I don't like the squishiness of a Rogue.

Horror isn't so great on paper - I think it forces the player to make choices about who to hit but won't cause a paralyse unless the opponent doesn't mind the model not doing anything else that turn. This negate the Val's and Rogues Terror but also the Rider's ability to dish out terror (particularly early on) Perhaps with Yin's Gnawing Fear or Molly's whispered secret you can force the model you want to become paralysed through  flips on a Horror duel but I think that is situational at best.
 

Overall, I think it could a winner in Reckoning, but I need to play-test more to see how useful it is in other strategies (currently wishing it had Dismember trigger - I mean look at the Mech Rider!  )

[Fetid Strumpet]

In general I never take the dead rider, with one exception. Tara. He can serve as Tara's taxi monster. She can toss him out. Activate him, he goes to town in an enemy and then either drags or runs away to power up his pseudo armor for turn 2 on wards. Past that, no, he's not worth his cost. I remember the arguments about how amazing he was with his terror bomb, but I never saw it being effective against an enemy who had any experience with the game. Plus all the riders are not very good outside the mechanical one.

[Sybarite]

It's pretty great in headhunter, stabbing people with the scythe, pulling them away and lopping their head off from the new position when they die.

[PraetorDragoon]

His main gimmick, is imo, repositioning. The one time I took him, I managed to drag an opposing bodyguard all the way back to his deployment zone. Needless to say that his Bodyguard VP were nonexistent. 

 

As something interesting, the current iteration of Molly's Conflux give sthe Rider the Horror trait, which makes for some interesting Molly shenenigans. 

 

Also, I think his model is very kick-ass

[valhallan42nd]

Tara and the Dead Rider make a lovely combo, as giving the Rider fast means four possible attacks. She can bury him to keep him safe as well. I think he works best in the GG 2015 where position makes a larger difference than in the Standard strats. I do think there is less synergy with other masters.

[Stadon]

Dead Rider is my go to beater for Nicodem lists.  Nicodem's healing + Graveyard Spirit mitigates the huge target on his forehead in the early game and by mid and late game he is more than resilient enough on his own.  The amazing threat range on a fast Dead Rider plus the ability to pull enemies into your bubble of death helps pin down wily objective runners and snipers.  In addition, the lack of H2W makes bouncing decays off of him easier for the AoE healing/damage potential.  

[Kadeton]

I've had some fun with the Dead Rider in Levy lists - I took it because it was the only Rider I had available at the time, but I found it to be pretty decent.

The repositioning was actually pretty awesome, using cover and speed to dart out and drag models away from their friends to kill them at my leisure. It also kept the Rider mobile while putting out damage - attacking enemy models to simultaneously drag them out of position and put the Rider in position for dropping scheme markers.

The Mechanical Rider is still clearly superior, but I wouldn't call the Dead Rider a sub-optimal choice at all.

[Myyrä]

I think that the deployment has a big effect on the usefulness of Dead Rider. He seems much better with that Wk 6 with corner deployment, where his higher speed is a bigger asset and you are unlikely to engage anything before turn 2 anyways.

Most of the time he isn't the optimal choice, but I feel that there are some situations where he might be.

[zFiend]

Can you elaborate on those situations where he might be?

[Myyrä]

Can you elaborate on those situations where he might be?

I assume it's ok if I limit my observations to Dead Rider, Izamu, Rogue Necro, and Valedictorian.

When you look at the models side by side Dead Rider has possibly the best mobility of the four with Wk6 Cg10 and Unimpeded. Rogue Necro and Valedictorian come close with Wk5, Cg6, Stalk and Wk6, Cg6 Flight respectively.

Offensively Rogue Necro takes the pot. None of the others can compete with him. The others seem pretty much even from turn 2-3 onwards, which is when you are likely to get to close combat. Valedictorian might be a bit worse on damage department than Izamu and Rider, but not by much.

Defensively Rogue Necro seems to be the worst of the lot. He has high Terrifying, but that will only take him so far. It doesn't help that his damage is gimped if he falls under 5 wounds. Izamu and Valedictorian seem more or less even. Izamu has heal but Valedictorian can use soul stones. Dead rider's defenses are really bad during the first two turns, on turn 3 he pretty much ties with Izamu and Valedictorian and on turn 4 he overtakes them. He is also unique in his defenses against Wp based attacks. He has the highest Wp and Stubborn, but his damage reduction doesn't help there. That makes him very good against Lures and other Wp based non-damaging attacks, but he might get in trouble against damaging attacks targeting Wp. Luckily they aren't too common and rarely come with built in .

In SS cost the Dead Rider loses with 12 against the 10 the others have.

Then there are other nifty abilities these models have, like Ruthless, Smell Fear, pushes and trigger denial. They are difficult to compare against each other, because they are useful in very different situations. Pushes do have at least one advantage compared to the other three: it's easier to predict when you might need pushes.

I believe I have now shown that all of the models are Pareto efficient solutions. Finding specific usage cases is left as an exercise for the reader.

[zFiend]

I do agree with you. As those have been the most obvious models to compare it to and usually it's tough to justify the Rider over them.

Maybe I just need to bite the bullet and put it to the table more to see if it actually amounts to something.

[Myyrä]

I do agree with you. As those have been the most obvious models to compare it to and usually it's tough to justify the Rider over them.

Maybe I just need to bite the bullet and put it to the table more to see if it actually amounts to something.

One problem is that we usually play with tables that have very little severe terrain. The biggest advantage Dead Rider has is its mobility in unimpeded. If moving around is easy, it makes that advantage less useful.

Also, I often play crews that have ability to strike hard very early in the game, being primarily a guild player and all. Dead Rider struggles against crews like that.

[zFiend]

That's very true. But I spent too many hours painting it for it to be utterly useless!

[Math Mathonwy]

One problem is that we usually play with tables that have very little severe terrain. The biggest advantage Dead Rider has is its mobility in unimpeded. If moving around is easy, it makes that advantage less useful.

And practically zilch Hazardous terrain which would make the Pushes even more powerful.

[zFiend]

And practically zilch Hazardous terrain which would make the Pushes even more powerful.

Actually, have we ever used hazardous?

[Myyrä]

Actually, have we ever used hazardous?

Not that I can remember.

[Kogan Style]

I wish I had taken the Dead Rider against Guild McCabe in the last game. Highly mobile targets could in theory be countered by the Dead Rider as he can reposition them somewhere more appropriate for our slower crew members to take advantage of. As it was, Fran predictably El Mayor on Turn one, then McCabe was launched around the board for two turns on buffed defence and I couldn't corner him (he was my assassinate target) 

 

I agree that in all the important model match ups against our 10+SS models the DR is weaker, but man did I ever wish I had him on the table that game!