How to kill Rezzers?

its gremlin time · January 25, 2015

Hi everyone, I'm very new to this game, having picked up Gremlins, Thunders, and Marcus from Arcanists.

I've only had four games, but every single one of them has been against Rezzers, and they seem from my noobish PoV to just be unstoppable. They can outnumber me severely, whilst not really being much weaker in a fight, and can constantly spawn new dudes each of which is a massive pile of wounds or can halve your dudes life or whatever.

I'm wondering, whats the best way for Thunders to deal with Rezzers in a kill em all mission. I know your suppost to go for objectives etc, but I can handle that part myself - I need some way to halt or at least stem the tide of never ending flesh constructs that just steamroll over my dudes!

Fetid Strumpet · January 25, 2015

Actually, you don't. And it isn't only Ressers that will drown you in models. The Dreamer can, Somer can, Ramos will make so many spiders you'll think the ressers were going easy on their summons. Sonia won't drown you in models but she'll get more stalkers by killing your and summoning in one go.

And it is strats and schemes that will let you win the game, not killing them all.

Now as to particular things you can do to mitigate what ressers and really any summoning master you need to specify which master you are having trouble with as there is no single strat for dealing with them all. From your descriptions it sounds like you are facing Nicodem, Kirai, or Spirit Based Molly lately.

A first line of anti summoning tech is to identify what additional resources the summoner needs, if any, and deny them to them from your crew. If you are facing a master like Nicodem or Ramos, they need Corpse or scrap markers in order to summon. Now they are almost certainly going to bring models which can give them to them, but if you know you will be facing them try to bring minimal amounts of things that will give them resources from your models. If facing Ressers try to bring constructs and such that won't give corpses. If facing Arcanists or Collodi try not to give them Scrap.

Secondly, understand that almost all summoning requires high cards, and on most models, specific suits as well. You can help mitigate the summons or deny them outright by putting pressure on the summoner so they can't use their hand as required. If you are facing Nicodem you will want to be putting direct, threatening pressure on him as fast as you possibly can. You might not kill him, but you will start burning through his high cards and or stones as he tries to keep Nicodem alive. Kirai is a similar situation. She has a great defensive trigger, but she needs to have the card or spend a stone to use it. Every stone you prevent the Summoner from keeping in their pool is one less model on command they might be able to summon. If you bring Jakob, use the Hungering darkness to control enemy models next to the summoner and force them to spread out, making paths for your illuminated to get through, or they risk their own models killing their master.

Third, understand that a weakness, and its a big one, of many of the masters that summon is they are linked to an easily identifiable theme. If you are facing Arcanists you are almost certainly going to encounter a construct or two. Ressers bring undead. The Dreamer uses Nightmares and Collodi uses constructs. So bringing models that are better against those traits will see you in good stead. Bring Kang, or similar models that get buffs or ignore armor, hard to wound, and or hard to kill.

Fourth, remember that part of the reason summoners feel overwhelming is that you are concentrating on trying to keep parity in models. Don't. Focus on your paths to VP to the exclusion of all else. The amount of AP and resources they spend on summoning doesn't mean anything if those investments of AP don't actually contribute to VP at the end of the game. Be aggressive in forcing them to react to what you are doing. Get your VP and force them to use their summons trying to stop you. If you are spending your AP trying to stop them, then, depending on how they've set their crew up you are playing their game, spending your AP on things that don't directly contribute to victory. It doesn't matter if the summoner outnumbers you 5 to 1 at the end of the game if those extra models didn't give that master any VP.

This is just one aspect of advice, but the last and probably most important is not to get psyched out. The steady tide of models coming against you has one important aspect that is its most powerful weapon, Fear. If this was a game like war machine or one of GWs games Summoning masters would be beyond broken. However this is Malifaux where the game is not a game about killing the enemy. It is, at its very basic level, a game about resource management and efficiency. You need to use your AP more efficiently than your opponent to actually get VP. Actually killing something an enemy has is only a worthwhile investment if it actually makes them getting VP harder, or you getting VP easier. Anything else, for whatever reason, is not a worthwhile investment of your AP.

Also remember that the tide of models you see often requires a substantial investment in resources to even make work. Most Nicodem summoning lists that I've seen or have run bring an investment of at least 13 Stones, and sometimes vastly more just to get the resources necessary to start the summoning train going. Also remember that anything summoned, as the game goes on is less and less useful in the larger context of the game. Turns that have passed are AP that model never got to spend. The turn they are summoned they can't interact, making them less effective for schemes and starts that require such, and the later in the game they are summoned, the less chances they have to do so. Don't let yourself get psyched out, keep your eye on what your goals are and stick to them and you'll most likely find that the tide of models, whole strong, loses a lot of its power the instant you don't let it intimidate you.

I hope some of that was helpful.

Dirial · January 25, 2015

Great advice, Fetid!

Cunning · January 25, 2015

Also. Against Ressers. Bring Kang.

Always

Bring

Kang.

Bengt · January 26, 2015

Remember that most condition removal (e.g. Chiaki) works on enemies, so you can preemptively remove poison from flesh constructs and other models before they are moved to your models and expunged.

zFiend · January 26, 2015

Remember that most condition removal (e.g. Chiaki) works on enemies, so you can preemptively remove poison from flesh constructs and other models before they are moved to your models and expunged.

Or hire a Performer and "Expunge" the poison carrier.

Then again it might not be so easy to destroy the poison bomb if the McMourning player knows how to handle that. If a model with condition removal is spotted by the Rezzer player it's probably the first one to be expunged/killed.

lucius101 · January 26, 2015

Remember that most condition removal (e.g. Chiaki) works on enemies, so you can preemptively remove poison from flesh constructs and other models before they are moved to your models and expunged.

And if chiaki is near Kang she gets a [+] to remove the poison off ressers, cos they're undead, constructs or both.

Kang, 2 Thunder Archers and blot the sky is a nice way to kill more summoned models since it allows for effectively 4 AP from the archers. Using Lynch to allow free flurries (discarding an ace) or Shen Long for free focus also boosts this nasy combo.

its gremlin time · January 28, 2015

That was a great post Strumpet, thanks for the advice!

barghest7 · January 30, 2015

Everything Fetid said, +1.

If you are in a spot where you need to disrupt the engine, most of them have a weak point which will cripple its effectiveness, if you can take it out. Resser henchmen, like Sebastian or Mortimer, tend to be pivotal, and generally are easier to take out than Resser masters. Remove Sebastian and the damage potential of the poison bomb drops dramatically. Mortimer is usually on corpse production, the Nico machine slows down quite a bit without him, especially if you can do it early in the game.

Fetid covered the really important points, though.

Bumpasses · April 27, 2015

So what would an effective Misaki vs Nico list look like. (in tourney, not knowing schemes or strats)

burning 25 points on that combo seems risky to me...

-Thunder Archer 7

-Kang 9

Blot the sky 2

Adran · April 27, 2015

If your plan was to kill every model that you could do, then I would probably add in a Samurai for more mass damage and prehaps a couple of low river monks to tie up Nicos crew as long as possible.

The only other thing I would look at is some way to destroy corpse counters. From the top of my head that would be Toshiro (with upgrade) or the specialist.

But That is completely ignoring the game, and just focusing on killing as many resurectionists as possible.

This may or may not win you the game, but since we have no knowledge what so ever about how to win this game, I'm figuring winning is irrelevant.

And you'd probably then fail horribly when your opponent brings an entirly living crew using Nicodem for giving out slow and buffing his own crew. But, you know, thems the risks when you try and make fixed lists to counter something you don't know for certain will happen.

Fetid Strumpet · April 27, 2015

The best anti resser list is one that gets your points and denys the opponent a scheme or the strat.

Honestly other than saying, bring kang, I don't think there is any anti resser list core you can build without knowing what the schemes and strats are.

Sholto · April 27, 2015

Taelor is always fun against Summoning lists, esp Construct ones. Molly hates that woman with a passion

Fetid Strumpet · April 27, 2015

I've never had a problem with her really playing as Molly. I'm totally cool with Taelor splashing black blood over everything, and summoning Onryo to splash slow over things in the area as they die.

Sholto · April 27, 2015

I am surprised at that, but maybe our experiences are different. If I spend a high card, a Master AP and (usually) a SS to summon a Punk Zombie on 2+ Wds, I am not best pleased when Taelor's free action kills said Punk Zombie immediately for at best a couple of Dg through Black Blood. I then do it again and Taelor kills it again! And my opponents know not to bunch up, so I am usually only getting one enemy model with the Black Blood at a time from the summon location.

Now, summoning Onryo is something I haven't tried yet, and that sounds like fun! I don't have any models for them, although I do want to try Spirit Molly.

Dirial · April 27, 2015

I fyou summon one Onryo right between another model than Taelor, and she charges it, there will be one model in Black Blood range, which will also have Slow And Adversary. Not a bad use for a Master AP, and with some bad positioning from the opponent, it could be better.

Not overly powerful, but not bad either.

Sholto · April 27, 2015

I faced Kang with a Molly list at the weekend - first time I have ever killed that sonnuvabitch. He took a Valedictorian to the face (Val was packing Unnerving Aura, Black Blood and Necrotic Preparations), backed up by a Grave Spirit, and he killed himself by attacking her. She took 2 Wds and he took 6 - it was a glorious moment for the Ressers

Rob Lo · April 27, 2015

As a player of all the ressers, but especially the summoners, it's all about the cards in my hand. I can and will bring the stones for Crows I'll need to make the cast go off, but if I don't have any high cards, the summon engine doesn't happen. Me not having high cards happens for a couple reasons. Either I didn't draw them (I don't think Molly likes her artwork on the deck I've been using lately, drawing 2 cards higher than a 9 all game is becoming a pattern), or you made me value something else enough to use them for that purpose instead. Almost always that means, I'm trying to keep my master alive by throwing high cards into their defense. On my last game, my opponent correctly guessed my bodyguard target from turn 1, so I spent loads of cards keeping him alive.

The more you make me defend, the less I will be summoning. Resser masters are known for being tough to put down, it's not easy. But your goal doesn't need to be 'kill', 'make them defend with high cards' is good enough when what you're trying to do is stop summoning. The best smile you can put on my face is by focusing on those horrible, horrible belles with their cast 8 that everyone hates so much, or that one scary Hanged, or whatever else that isn't my master. Because in the time you've spent getting rid of them, I've been free to leave them to their own decently sufficient defense (no way I'm spending a 13 that could be a new Hanged on a Belle's defense) and have a whole second wave of guys coming your way next turn.

Oh, and go after the crooligans or necropunks. They are a lot of the time a Resser crutch, the assumed go-to model for scheme running. Kill them off and often having to divert other models to run schemes will completely throw them off their game. A nurse.. dropping scheme markers??? That's impossible! Sometimes they give up entirely on making those points.

Also, why the heck am I saying any of this? Someone shut me up, they're gonna take my Resser card away from me.

chris_havoc · April 28, 2015

I play predominantly 10T but my Resser collection is definitely starting to pick up. One thing I have noticed trying to play Ressers in a game is that there is a lot of potential for pressure to push an opponent into making mistakes. There's a lot to keep track of and make use of that you can turn that disadvantage around by applying pressure in the right areas. Usually that means threatening important models that keep the summoning factory alive and playing objectives simultaneously. This has been stated above in the comprehensive post by Fetid. So I'd rather focus on what is good at accomplishing that.

As was mentioned above, the Samurai can be a huge asset against Undead minion models and actually can mow down Summons as fast as they pop up if they aren't healed up. However, they have Wp 4 and that is pretty weak sauce if you are going after anything important as a huge amount of Resser biguns have Terrifying 12 or more. Obviously Kang is a great model to use against Undead for the reason that the Terrifying no longer matters and models become pretty effective against Undead with all the :+fate's. You don't need him though if you find, with him being slow, he doesn't suit the Strategy and Scheme Pool.

I love Misaki against Summoners in general. With Assassinate she can get rid of cards QUICK and with her Diving Charge of 8 she can get in and out of combat really quick like. Throw Misdirection on top of that and trying to get rid of her wastes resources the Summoner will need to play effectively. That means the rest of your crew can actually go about accomplishing objectives. There's a great chance Misaki will die but there's almost no way she won't go down without dealing some serious damage around important models. Mei Feng is also a great Master for dealing with ressers not just because Kang fits in with her crew more seamlessly but also because she has Thunderous Smash that can remove Scrap, Scheme, and Corpse Markers with a Trigger. She's also got the ability to hand out a significant amount of damage in large groups meaning she loves charging into large groups. Obviously that means Misdirection works well with her. So, is great for holding up multiple models to allow the rest of your crew go about their business.

I'm begining to go on a bit much but those particular Masters are great at applying pressure where it hurts and quickly. Other strategies that work are to simply be quicker than your opponent around the table as well as being tough to hit. Tengu, Monks, 10T Brothers, and Torakage all work here.

Patzer · May 2, 2015

(Val was packing Unnerving Aura, Black Blood and Necrotic Preparations)

And I guess you don't have that many friends left.

Sholto · May 2, 2015

And I guess you don't have that many friends left.

All's fair in a tournament. Or playing against Neverborn

Sybarite · May 2, 2015

Mei Feng is quite lovely, but not just for her thunderous smash removing markers, vent steam (which you can trigger while punching if you've got Vapormancy) can mess up a summoner's game if she manages to get close to the summoner. It also helps a lot protecting your models against nasty Hanged and such.

But yeah, Kang!

Bengt · May 2, 2015

Mei Feng is quite lovely, but not just for her thunderous smash removing markers, vent steam (which you can trigger while punching if you've got Vapormancy) can mess up a summoner's game if she manages to get close to the summoner. It also helps a lot protecting your models against nasty Hanged and such.
But yeah, Kang!

Vent steam affects "attack actions taken against models", summons tend to be tactical actions. It will help against trigger based summons though.