feelings about summoning

[jonatep]

As a dreamer and nicodem player, i had a feeling that there is something wrong with the summoning master, last game I played was a 30 points game, I summoned:

3 punk zombies

bete noire

1 flesh construct

1 student of viscera

 

Before turn 4!

 

So we call it a game. I perhas have missed something. For the next game I will play I will had the rule that you cannot always summon what was on your army list and from a summoning pool limited to the game point.

 

What are you feelings about summon masters?

[Dirial]

My thoughts: Summoning is vastly unbalanced for small games, as the game is balanced for 50 SS. I never have any more problems against summoning Masters at 50 SS than against any other Master. (Different problems of course, but not more.)

[Drool_bucket]

Right.

 

At 30ss summoning is an issue.  When I give demo games I leave out the Masters that are "true" summoners..   Seamus works fine but Ramos and Nicodem aren't good Masters to use... unless you are both using them!

[scarlett fever]

This comes up a bunch.

The usual responses revolve around AP as a resource, card hand resource and early vs late game strategy.

The amount of AP and cards spent to bring in new models in relation to the AP left to the summoned model (over the course of the entire game) theoretically should balance out. Especially once you take into account the fact you generally summon in the backfield and special abilties of models.

All of which seems to be true.

And as Dirial says the game is balanced at 50SS.

 

 

The interesting thing I find, and what I struggle with, is out-activation. Out-activation is a strong mechanic, yet it almost feels like a side effect of the activation rules. I play Ten Thunders and I rarely out-activate my opponents, a few times using McCabe and Hounds I've out-activated in the first few turns of Recon vs non-summoners, but generally my opponent will have the last say each turn. When I do have activation control my game feels much less tense (I get a similar feeling from card control with Lynch), I have room to make more non-critical moves with models. Many of the Schemes and Strats are easier to achieve with activation control (Recon, Plant Explosives, Spring the Trap come to mind).

In smaller crew sizes (and without summoning I expect my crew to reduce at pace over the game) I have little to no redundancy and efficiency with every models AP becomes paramount, one model will often need to deny enemy VP as well as try and secure VP itself.

 

It's an interesting puzzle I still struggle with.

 

I like to play every game at 50ss, less than 40 I don't really consider competitive.

[Hateful Darkblack]

How did you summon Bete Noire?

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yeah... small games get really gross with good summoners. I'd avoid introducing players with summoners unless both sides have either summoning or something akin to it (like the Hungering Darkness) that at least can maintain force size.

[Math Mathonwy]

This comes up a bunch.

The usual responses revolve around AP as a resource, card hand resource and early vs late game strategy.

The amount of AP and cards spent to bring in new models in relation to the AP left to the summoned model (over the course of the entire game) theoretically should balance out. Especially once you take into account the fact you generally summon in the backfield and special abilties of models.

All of which seems to be true.

Also the fact that the power of Summoning is really simple to calculate ("I summoned 60SS worth of models in a 50SS game!") - even though they often hit the table late in the game, are Slow, can't Interact on the turn they come in and might be almost dead already so that calculation isn't at all accurate.

Compared to a support Master, their impact is a lot harder to gauge.

 

The interesting thing I find, and what I struggle with, is out-activation. Out-activation is a strong mechanic, yet it almost feels like a side effect of the activation rules.

I fought hard during the beta to get a passing mechanism into the game (I know several good systems from other skirmish games) to lessen the out-activation advantage but it wasn't seen as needed.

[Hateful Darkblack]

So, what would improve summoning for small games?

[zFiend]

You can't summon Bete Noire though. Other than that seems legit. Nicodem can summon a lot, in smaller games it can be completely and utterly off the chain to face. At 50ss when you have more game changing models on your side it isn't as bad at all. 

 

Unless you play summoning Dreamer and whip out 3 or was it 4 Teddies in a game?  

[SpectreEliteGaming]

My thoughts: put unrelenting pressure on the summoner - you let them sit back field and do whatever they want you are being silly and playing into their game. Hit hard - you have advantage turns 1-2 and they have advantage turns 4-5 (3 swings - usually in summoner's favor - especially if you are not putting pressure). Get into position early and take out/hate on key models.

Also, below 41 SS ... you should always choose a summoner for ezmode facebashing (moo haha).

Summoning henchmen are soooo goooooooood.

If you put the hate on the summoners they will have a much harder time doing what they do. Also, bring constructs! I've never found corpse marker hate beyond this to be worth it as opposed to just smashing face. As Joel Henry says - "play wack-a-mole" with the weak summons and you will stay ahead. You need to significantly change your "normal VP method" to put more focus on bashing face. Summoners like to get caught up in their summoning only to realize later that they didn't actually achieve anything and its too late. With sufficient scheme flankers and a beaty hate list you're golden.

Honestly, utilizing outcasts as my main, I find that by declaring ressers, the opponent is already at a significant disadvantage. I'm sure that I'm not alone on this thought, either. That is all for now.

[Math Mathonwy]

Honestly, utilizing outcasts as my main, I find that by declaring ressers, the opponent is already at a significant disadvantage. I'm sure that I'm not alone on this thought, either. That is all for now.

Wait, what?

[Dirial]

Honestly, utilizing outcasts as my main, I find that by declaring ressers, the opponent is already at a significant disadvantage. I'm sure that I'm not alone on this thought, either. That is all for now.

 

Huh?

[zFiend]

Honestly, utilizing outcasts as my main, I find that by declaring ressers, the opponent is already at a significant disadvantage. I'm sure that I'm not alone on this thought, either. That is all for now.

 

Trashtalk! Heresy! Blasphemy! 

[Dirial]

maybe Taelor? or Johan?

 

Everyone has those two.

[MR TORGUE]

Or possibly viks with whirlwind and ignore everything upgrade... but then again Viks>Anything...

[zFiend]

Or possibly viks with whirlwind and ignore everything upgrade... but then again Viks>Anything...

 

Yeah exactly..

[katadder]

have faced summoners myself and pulled out a draw but it was an uphill battle, saw 3 summoned hanged, 3 punk zombies and endless hordes of mindless zombies and all coming in without slow due to nico and his totem.

the hanged as a summon is quite horrible though due to suddenly appearing somewhere nasty to use his half wounds no healing ability, but the rest isnt too bad really.

[jonatep]

I just checked and read the summon properly so I cannot summon bete noire. I will try at 50 point

[SpectreEliteGaming]

I do often hear and see people saying how good summoners are but I've never felt that way.

I do think there is a big difference between people who start the game playing summoner masters and those who don't and that is where the opinions vary so dramatically. Honestly, I usually see a lot of summoning as wasting time summoning instead of actually doing something for VP - that's why I gush over a master like Levy who is best of both worlds (all worlds, really ). I play pretty much every outcast master (cepts Hamelin in M2E and Vik very rarely) and I always feel I have strong games against ressers - I'd say they are my strongest matchup - my main outcasts are Daw and Levy. Construct Levy can 2for1 turn around leaving nothing behind and both utilize lots of Ca. Most importantly you just can't let them sit there without any pressure on them - to many players just let those dirty Nico's sit there summoning all day long.m

Add that to getting Sue/Johan/Taelor/Hans etc. a point cheaper and you can really tailor the hell out of your list to punish summoners, in general, or those single master players, specifically.

I'm sure others have had very different experiences (metas and all) but vs. ressers is more or less ezmode for me and listening to batreps or podcasts, it doesn't seem like too many other people play them any differently /shrug ... even McMourning would rather be Guild! tee hee

I do dread arcanist matchups more than anything though... don't really know why, I just seem to have more trouble against them (unless its just one of those silly Mei crews ).

Summoning is a crutch, get over yourselves >8)

[brdparker]

Add that to getting Sue/Johan/Taelor/Hans etc. a point cheaper and you can really tailor Taelor the hell out of your list to punish summoners, in general, or those single master players, specifically.

 

(edit mine) he, he, he...

[Hateful Darkblack]

Taelor seems to be a great answer if you want to commit a third of your Crew's Soulstones to hiring Taelor, but that may mean that you're spending your efforts countering summoning instead of doing what your Crew does.

 

If your Crew hiring decisions need to be defensive (stopping the opponent from doing their thing) then you won't be making your Crew flourish the way it should be, since you'll be losing your Crew's own internal synergies.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Taelor seems to be a great answer if you want to commit a third of your Crew's Soulstones to hiring Taelor, but that may mean that you're spending your efforts countering summoning instead of doing what your Crew does.

 

If your Crew hiring decisions need to be defensive (stopping the opponent from doing their thing) then you won't be making your Crew flourish the way it should be, since you'll be losing your Crew's own internal synergies.

I don't think it's any different than preparing for a condition-heavy playstyle with an anti-condition model. You can play an optimized/specialized  list or you can play one that has better counters (whether it's denial or variety) to potential opposing lists, though usually you end up somewhere in between. That's true of any Malifaux Master I've played as, at least. As mentioned before, small games make those decisions harder and potentially unbalancing. Running up against a list you don't have an answer to sucks, but it's what sometimes happens.

[katadder]

Taelor doesnt only counter summoning though, shes a hard hitting model as well so even if not countering summoning she can be laying down the pain

[scarlett fever]

I don't think it's any different than preparing for a condition-heavy playstyle with an anti-condition model. You can play an optimized/specialized  list or you can play one that has better counters (whether it's denial or variety) to potential opposing lists, though usually you end up somewhere in between. That's true of any Malifaux Master I've played as, at least. As mentioned before, small games make those decisions harder and potentially unbalancing. Running up against a list you don't have an answer to sucks, but it's what sometimes happens.

 

I've played about 50-60 games now and only one faction (Thunders) but I think this is true.

 

For me this is where the declaring factions comes in. If I'm playing against Ressers, unless schemes fall well in my favour I'm going to have to tech up. I'm going to need damage (hard to wound and incorporeal denial helps) and condition removal. Against other factions I'll tech up to a greater or lesser degree depending on Schemes also. The more I need to engage in the Strats generally the more I have to tech against my opponent.

 

I would never say that summoning is unbalanced at 50SS, it's just something I have to play harder against and I think this has a lot to do with the Faction and Masters I like to play (and my skill level!).

 

As Thunders I don't find Neverborn so bad to play against but Gremlins are hard, yet our Gremlin player finds Neverborn to be his nemesis. This is a game of many counters, particularly at the Master level and part of the challenge is to try to be ready without compromising your gameplan. All these counters give dynamism, fun and surprise to the game because there can be so many in a single gaming session.

[The Godlyness]

Sonnia the anti-summoner since 2005. Hey look models with low wounds. TAKE ALL THE BLASTS. Oh you want to make more. MORE BLASTS. Done yet? Nope. MOAR BLASTS. And if this tactic is not working for you you are clearly not using enough BLASTS.