TychoTerziev Posted December 27, 2014 Report Share Posted December 27, 2014 Hi there! Today I played my first game against Kirai and it wasn't pretty. Maybe it was my inexperience and my probably poor choice of a Master and crew (Swampy Lilith),but all this summoning seemed to be quite overpowered. My main problem is with The Hanged- those things quite nasty and when I learned that Kirai can summon them I was pretty close to flipping the table . With an all melee crew they were pretty hard to kill and them neutering some of my big hitters was quite disheartening. Also Izamu seems to be a tough nut to crack Also I can't wrap my head around what is the balancing factor when it come to summoners. Yes you need high cards and probably 7 soulstones ,but getting more models on the board gives tremendous flexibility and quite the advantage. In case of Kirai ,the summons come damaged, but there are many ways to heal them. Many factions have good counters to ressers,blasts or at least good shooting, but I am not seeing this in Neverborn. The condition removal of Johan can help,but he is not out yet, apart from that elusive promo. I would give my right hand to get Taelor, but The Viktorias seems to be out of stock everywere and I am not sure that it is a good idea to buy the Hired Guns box just for the specialist. Currently I own almost everything M2E Neverborn(without mister Tannen and Lucious) +Killjoy and Bishop, but can't think of anything that can help me. Maybe Pandora!? So, how do you deal with those pesky ressers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted December 27, 2014 Report Share Posted December 27, 2014 I would start by trying literally any master other than Lilith against them. Ressers have quite a lot Wp shenanigans that can gripple Lilith pretty bad. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mastershake Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 I would start by trying literally any master other than Lilith against them. Ressers have quite a lot Wp shenanigans that can gripple Lilith pretty bad. Or not. Lilith is the only NB master with good LoS control which can hard for ressers. In general Ressers want to make the game about trading. When you get free models and they don't trading 1 for 1 is great for you. Lilith is one of the few NB masters who can deny that with Illusionary Forest, Tangle Shadows and Transfixing Gaze. If you try to make it about a grand melee, she's going to have a problem. With Ressers there are two approaches, denial or power through. Powering through Kirai is uniquely difficult because of the Ikiryo (or however it's spelled). It's free activations every turn with a reliable attack stat and good damage track. The only master I've been able to power through against Kirai was Lynch who could simply blast all the relevant models off the table, but the crew took a lot of losses. With Lilith playing a more denial based game I was able to achieve more firm victories against a lot of ressers just by keeping them from playing the game they want. At the end of the day, killing the hanged/Ikiryo/Punk Zombie/Belle etc. is not the name of the game, it's getting VPs. Go for Strats and schemes avoid getting over committed to a large group of enemies and pick off wandering scheme runners like Necropunks whenever the opportunity arises...actually I guess that's good advice for any Malifaux game, but the recursion Ressers have can be tilting enough that's it's easy to forget. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarlett fever Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 I'm not a Neverborn player but in our little meta our Kirai player is by far the hardest opponent I have to face. Levi is tough but luckily for me our Levi player is not super competitive, although a very good player. I play Thunders and the best counter I have to Kirai is actually a Neverborn Master, Lynch! Usual caveat about everything depending on Strats and Schemes, between lighting Izamu, Ikiryo, everything Incorporeal, summoned Hanged and Shikome, Kirai is tough to face, you can't afford to make a mistake. Either don't rely on healing or take condition removal. I see there being 2 basic approaches depending on the Strat/Scheme layout. Avoid engaging (not easy given swirling spirits) and concentrate on VPs. Lock-up key pieces, only attack models with-out the keywords Living and Undead or use Attack Actions that do no damage. You are always going to be out-activated so be aware of this. Use terrain and LoS to your advantage and spread out. Or engage, in which case go for Lost Love or Kirai ASAP, first or second turn. Without Lost Love the crew looses much of it's healing abilities. Go for a heavy Ca damage crew (Lynch) to bypass Incorporeal and again either draw models out of the Kirai/Lost Love bubble or pick on non-Undead/Living models when you can to avoid bringing out Ikiryo. When you know you could pop up Ikiryo make sure you can afford to loose the model or it can withstand her and have another model ready to smack her back down again. I imagine our local NB player might weigh into this topic and I know he's better at taking down Kirai than me, I'm pretty sure with Lilith. MasterShakes using Lilith as denial sounds like a good idea. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TychoTerziev Posted December 28, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Thanks for the advice! The strat was Reckoning, so it came down to killing stuff For the schemes I chose Entourage for Lilith and bodyguard for the eternal Juju, but I conceded on turn 3 because I have failed my morale check. In hindsight I should have picked Pandora, but I haven't played with her and I didn't want to slow the game. Common sense dictates picking as few as possible models on The Reckoning, but the Hanged counter this quite well. Whispers from beyond hurts, especially on models like Huggy and Teddy. Their aura that prevents immunity to paralyze is brutal against a melee crew and to top that, they have WP7 to weaken your casting. Arrrrrgh! Although I would hate that ,probably I should proxy Taleor and Johan, until those models are available. Is there some other condition removal available to NB,apart from Johan that I am missing? The Freikorps Specialist is neat, but not exactly what I am looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarlett fever Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Pretty sure Dreamer is the only condition removal NB has without hiring in Johan, which would be a fight fire with fire game vs Ressers. Kirai likes Reckoning the least of all the Strats, summoning means lots of wounded models which should be good for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mastershake Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Thanks for the advice! The strat was Reckoning, so it came down to killing stuff For the schemes I chose Entourage for Lilith and bodyguard for the eternal Juju, but I conceded on turn 3 because I have failed my morale check. In hindsight I should have picked Pandora, but I haven't played with her and I didn't want to slow the game. Common sense dictates picking as few as possible models on The Reckoning, but the Hanged counter this quite well. Whispers from beyond hurts, especially on models like Huggy and Teddy. Their aura that prevents immunity to paralyze is brutal against a melee crew and to top that, they have WP7 to weaken your casting. Arrrrrgh! Although I would hate that ,probably I should proxy Taleor and Johan, until those models are available. Is there some other condition removal available to NB,apart from Johan that I am missing? The Freikorps Specialist is neat, but not exactly what I am looking for. A lot of people take the approach of a small elite crew on reckoning, but from my experience it's such a hard strat to score on that crew composition has very little impact unless you play a master like Hammelin. I used to take small crews for Reckoning, now I just take whatever and you know what? I get about the same results. Also of note, the Hanged aura that causes you to lose immunity to Horror duels doesn't affect attacks generated by a charge, so a charge only requires one check. Also, you probably shouldn't Entourage Lilith. She's mobile, but it's hard to have her participate in the game and stay alive through the whole thing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malsqueek Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Another thing to think about with Ressers is that the summoning ones generally want to curate a good hand for summoning, and will let most other things slide in order to do so. Having abilities which force the resser to either lose agency over their models or cards from their hand is one good way to undermine their summoning. AoE (Such as Pandora's (1) tactical burst) or very high damage output (Nekima, Teddy, Chompy, etc) or "discard to die" (Hans, etc) are all good ways to try to flush cards from their hand "Hey, remember, I've got the trigger on this one which lets me spend YOUR AP during YOUR TURN" It is good for you either way because you are removing flexibility. Once you have pared their hand down, it makes everything in their game less reliable, and generally takes about two turns to correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorschlag Posted December 28, 2014 Report Share Posted December 28, 2014 Swamp fiends are not your friend against Kirai, Their low willpower allows things like the hanged to go to town on you. I made the same mistake recently when I wanted to run a swampfiend Zoraida crew with McTavish as I had never bothered before. Zoraida with dolls on the other hand didn't have too much of a problem, use the doll to hem, you will need to beat terror in some cases but then drop damage on the doll which is not reduce by incorpreal and does not summon Ikirio, try to do this late turn if he has chiaki, or simply kill chiaki, also kill lost love to reduce his capacity to bring Ikirio in (if the opportunity presents itself). Apart from that it's mainly just picking off wounded models every chance you get - (which does not interfere with S&S) because if your taking a couple out each turn then their master is spending all her activations to bring them back. Also think about Obeying the hanged to drop hitpoints on his own models, only do this to Kirai if you don't think he can trigger her defence/Wp trigger. The next Neverborn crew I plan to run against her will be Lucius, we'll see how that goes... Pandora is a more obvious option I suppose for dealing to spirits but I haven't run her against them yet either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NeilH Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 I've always hated playing against the hanged, except with Huggy who eats hanged for breakfast...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TychoTerziev Posted December 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Isn't Huggy countered by Whispers from Beyond? Maybe The Rising Sun can help. Thanks for chiming in! My nerdrage has subsided and I will try to crack that particular nut more calmly the next time I face Kirai. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnythingBut Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 I don't have my cards on me as I'm at work but the hanged stop any immunity to horror duels right? How does that interact with Graves and other models who are immune to WP duels in general during thier activation? As the immunity in this case is to all WP duels and not just horror, who's rule wins out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tuttleboy Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Maybe give Collodi a shot. Taking away The Hanged's first AP and using it yourself seems pretty legit to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TychoTerziev Posted December 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Oh yes. I will buy the plastic Collodi the moment it hits the market, as I am not fan of the metal version. Also Vassilisa seems quite nice. Maybe the part of the problem is that not everything is re-released and I want to stick to the plastics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TychoTerziev Posted December 29, 2014 Author Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 (Double post) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonahmaul Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Also of note, the Hanged aura that causes you to lose immunity to Horror duels doesn't affect attacks generated by a charge, so a charge only requires one check. Note that this is only if you charge the Hanged itself. If you take a Charge action against another model within the Hanged's Aura you still have to check for Terrifying with each action as it strips the immunity. Key to taking out Hanged and a lot of the other Incorporeal stuff that Kirai likes to bring is Ca actions which NB seem to have quite a lot of. Or target the cause of the summons (in this case Kirai). Remember she can pass off damage to friendly Spirits so getting rid of them first is usually best (though she can also stop things dying). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadowfane Posted December 29, 2014 Report Share Posted December 29, 2014 Pretty sure Dreamer is the only condition removal NB has without hiring in Johan, which would be a fight fire with fire game vs Ressers. Kirai likes Reckoning the least of all the Strats, summoning means lots of wounded models which should be good for you. The scribe can remove conditions from Lucius, although I'll admit thats somewhat corner case in this scenario... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 Kirai is a tough nut to crack, especially the first time you face her. I expect most people will fall foul of multiple Ikaryu at least once until they start to adjust their play to reduce her effect. Could you not have used Tangle shadows to remove models from the Ikaryu summonign aura before killing them? gettign Juju with Fears given form into the middle of his crew support is a good way of either hurting models or destroying hands, and for Kirai to summon she needs 2 resources, Cards in hand, and wounds. Typically Kirai takes wounds from 1 model to create a second model, so you gain AP and activations, bubt the crew as a whole Stopping Bad Juju from healing will remove his regeneration, but doesn't prevent eternal, as his bury mechanism removes all conditions from him before it heals him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TychoTerziev Posted January 2, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 This is a sound advice. Frankly it was really my inexperience. I was a totally overwhelmed by what was happening on the table. It was one of those games that you lose ,even before the first turn. I have calmed since then and now am frantically searching for a proxy for Johan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted January 2, 2015 Report Share Posted January 2, 2015 I have calmed since then and now am frantically searching for a proxy for Johan You could always just get the old metal one. It's not that difficult to find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TychoTerziev Posted January 3, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 I would love to, but he seems to be OOS everywhere in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted January 3, 2015 Report Share Posted January 3, 2015 I would love to, but he seems to be OOS everywhere in Europe.Not in this store.You can also find it on e-bay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AoS Posted January 4, 2015 Report Share Posted January 4, 2015 Against summoners you have to kill the summoner early or the late game is for them. But in Malifaux you win if you get the Schemes, so you can always win doing your job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TychoTerziev Posted January 5, 2015 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 Thanks for the suggestion Myyra! Do you have experience with that shop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted January 5, 2015 Report Share Posted January 5, 2015 I have ordered from there once. The postage was quite reasonable (around 5€) and items arrived within 2 weeks to Finland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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