jakun/ama

[izikial]

I'm curious, I'm having a hard time getting what I want into a jackdaw crew, I assumed that if I have jakuna and ama that 2 drowned would be auto include, is this the case or are they extra you don't need

I wanted sue as I love him

Ama as I'm told she is amazing

Papa loco to make amas mi atack into a beast

2 guilty for sue and ama

Jakuna as she is amazing for 6 pts

But I'm getting low on Ss now, so should I make room for a drowned guard for jakuna and ama or ist it not worth it

I know you should adapt based on scheme, but I want to learn with a core then swap in and out

[Arli]

I usually run Jaakuna with one drowned and allow Ama (when she is in the list too) to run ahead of the group because her hazardous terrain damages everyone.  I have never tried the Papa Loco idea, that is a good one.  Sue is only helpful with certain schemes/strategies and I find it hard to fit him in.  

[izikial]

Ok, I love sue so much, he's mechanics and look, but he may not be the best, good catch on ama, I didn't know it would hurt my own guys, I read it as similar to jakuna, ok so I cut sue and put a drowned in, then have a few Ss to play with, sounds good

[monkeyking68]

Best way to decide is to try them all.  Eventually, you'll cut out the fat.

[Adran]

Personally I'd say the possible problem with your core crew, is that it appears you are building it around a niche of Hazadous terrain, which is negated by models with fly or Incorporial.(or just have decent ranged attacks).

 

Try it with 2 drowned, and see if the second is needed or if it is just redundant. (Or if you're lookign at buying first try it with 1 firstly backing up Ama, and then Backing up Jakuma and see if you think you would want both happening at the same time)

 

I've neevr combined Jakuma with Jack, so I don't actually know wthe answer. but if you are trying to build a stock list to learn, I probably wouldn't put so much effort into a niche trick. Save that for soemthing you swap out for certain match-ups/schemes (Turf war against guild for example)

[Rob Lo]

Flying or Incorporeal still have to deal with Hazardous terrain, don't they? I don't have my stuff with me, but aren't those abilities limited to 'while moving' or something similar? So tests would still be made otherwise?

 

Having played against Arli's Jack/Ama/Jakuuna I can say it is a serious threat and can be used to strongly control territory and the ebb and flow of models across the board.

[jonahmaul]

Flying can ignore it if they move over it completely but still take damage for landing in it as normal.  Incorporeal ignore all other models and terrain when moving so they also wouldn't get hurt my Hazardous unless they ended their movement in it.

[Kogan Style]

Having all these models I can say its very much a diminishing return to go with 2 Drowned. Ama is very fast and the drowned going with her will be quickly out-paced and left stranded without additional effort from either Daw or some other Obey mechanic. 

[ravenborne]

Seems like a Nurse could be pretty nice in a Jack Daw crew. I am going to give one a try on my first run with him. Anyone have thoughts that tried that?

[jonahmaul]

I've not run JD but Nurses are fantastic and should be taken in any crew they can be!  If your opponents are unaware of them they will generally underestimate them at first but soon realise just how horrible they can be.

[SevenSins]

Nurses are pretty much auto include, the do incredible stuff.

As for drowned being slow, nothing needs to be slow in a jack crew considering his upgrades... you can have just about everyone around the midline turn one.... That said two drowned seems like a bit much, crooked men are also decent (and hanged) so many options

[underdog6750]

A point to remember is you need to activate the drowned in this case 2 before gaining all the benefits of the additional damage. You are investing quite a significant amount of resources in this trick

[SpectreEliteGaming]

The biggest problem I see here is that your "core crew" is not core at all... there's a lot going on and you seem to have no focus. Also, you're trying to be too specific... build a core of 1/3-1/2 of total soul stones - the rest of stones are undetermined until you see strategy/scheme composition.

My Jack Daw core crew:

Jack Daw

Lady

Guilty x2

Nurse (1-2)

(... and since its outcasts, I have to mention the obligatory Trapper x2 package right? )

... the rest is determined by matchup and scenario conditions. Some masters (like Levy) can build an entire crew as a "core" then just swap 1-2 models here and there. Jack Daw is the opposite... you really have to build him for the specific situation. He is one of the best examples of a finesse master in this game and sometimes you have to bring very particular models (Sue, Johan) for proper support.

[izikial]

Ok, I really don't like nurses, I have seen them used devastatingly paralysing killjoys, making coryphrys unable to move, but for me in practice I always end up with the wrong suits in hand and they just don't end up contributing much, also jd tends to have lower damage than most and I don't like spending more on utility. I have had a bias against them even befor playing them, so I know its just me.

As a general rule I tend to like modles who want high cards (Hamlin, Lazarus, kade) rather than modles who want suits (nurses, sumoners, misaki) so that also gose against them for me.

Just to reiterate though, nurses are amazing, just not my cuppa tea

[Duront]

The Jack Daw Spike Trap combo works well as long as the strat works for it, I.E. Turf War. I find a better combo than ama is Montressor with the aura distance increasing upgrade. This will allow  jakuunas water death to spread further in addition to drowns riptide. Montressor also has nice pulls to make sure models are dragged into the loving embrace of jakuuna.

 

Also never not be nursing.

[Adran]

Flying can ignore it if they move over it completely but still take damage for landing in it as normal.  Incorporeal ignore all other models and terrain when moving so they also wouldn't get hurt my Hazardous unless they ended their movement in it.

Hazardous terrian hurts when you start you activation in it or when you enter it. (page 74 of the little book)

Surely if you enter it whilst ignoring it, then you don't have to take that test, and its only activating that will cause you to take the test, so a crew relying on the hazadous terrain for protection loses its important first turn of protection against Flying and Incorporial.

[asrian]

The moment you finish your move with flight, if you are still within the hazardous terrain, then you have "entered" it and take damage.

[Ausplosions]

The moment you finish your move with flight, if you are still within the hazardous terrain, then you have "entered" it and take damage.

Got a page reference for that?

[kross1]

I had 2 crooligans kill Sue in a tournament I was in last month. I love them.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Great topics!

 

I’ve been thinking lately about statements about a model being “really good” or “amazing.” I think those statements are only helpful when you’re talking about a particular use. Every model in Malifaux is really good. (Maybe there a very few exceptions) It’s just that they’re good in different situations!

 

When you’re talking about how good a model is, think about when and how that model is good.

 

Some further thoughts (based on models the OP mentioned):

 

Jaakuna is an incredible tarpit, especially when supported. She can lure models in, make terrain dangerous, and freeze models. Her melee attack isn’t high, but it’s great for disengaging strikes.

 

Ama No Zako is a high-power counter-flanker with very flexible board control. She’s a fast-moving and can spring some surprising tricks. She’s got a really high-damage attack, several ways to heal herself, model-eating, Obey effects, terrain danger effects, and some good durability. She can eat enemy objective grabbers and grab her own, but she’ll die pretty quickly if used in the front lines.

 

The Drowned are cheap and incredibly durable in close range. Their melee attacks are good. They’re great at holding and keeping objective points, and they boost Jaakuna and Ama No Zako’s territory abilities. They’ll die fast from spells or ranged attacks, though, so they work well hiding behind terrain and supported by luring models.

 

Sue is the Man in Black, and does a lot of support and quality ranged attacks. He’s got reliable ranged attacks, great anti-magic, can spread to burning. He can help other models hold territory and shoot bad guys to death. Even better, he gets you more cards.

 

Papa Loco is walking time bomb: a fragile but high-damage AOE model. If you can get him into position (movement effects help), he can do a lot of damage to clumped up enemy models. He’s also got a very good crew buffer if you risk keeping him near friendly models. If your opponent controls him, though, he can be disastrous.

 

The Guilty are decent high-defense objective-runners with massive Tormented synergy. They’re great in Tormented Crews, but not much use outside, and they'll usually do best when they're hanging out with Jack Daw or Montresor specifically. They’ve also got decent melee and defenses, especially for their cost.

 

The Nurse is an amazing mid-range healer, buffer, and debuffer with Poison synergy. Her abilities are all a buff and a debuff, depending on the situation. She benefits from models that can clear Conditions, but she’s handy with anything. She's great if a Crew needs Poison, but actually really good with just about any Crew that wants model support. For her to work well, though, she needs other models to support - on her own, she's a mediocre model.

 

So, when thinking about what to hire, you can start asking questions like: How much do you need to tarpit enemies? Protect territory? Run objectives? Blow up the other guy? Support your models?

 

You're right about starting with a crew and switching out. It's a lot easier to make decisions when you've prepped beforehand and you've got a "decision tree". It's all well and good to say "Your best Crew choice depends on Strats and Schemes" but it's valuable to go into more detail.

 

You may want to start with a core like:

Jack Daw

Lady Ligeia

2 Guilty

Nurse

Sue

 

Then you can (for instance) switch in Jaakuna + 2 Drowned when you want to tarpit, or Papa + Ama No Zako when you want to eat flankers and blow up little models.

 

I don't know if those are the best combinations. I suspect they're pretty good and they've worked for me. But it's worth experimenting and improving.

Hope this is helpful!

[izikial]

thanks a lot hateful, that's relay helpful. i do despise nurses from having them used against me all the time, but the more I think about what I struggle against the more i can see the nurses de buff helping against nasty enemy's that daws crew does not have the damage to put down and buffs helping against needed friendlys to do important jobs 

[Hateful Darkblack]

I like to think of the Nurse's turn like a weird little puzzle subgame. You've got your low cards, so which of four possible effects makes the best buff or worst debuff for a vaguely-nearby model? Sometimes there's an urgent need ("my tank is on its last Wound" or "Killjoy needs to get Paralyzed like right now") but more often it's like "Hey, I've got a force multiplier here with some drawbacks, or a debuff that could go wrong. What's going to happen the rest of this turn and where do I mess things up?"

[SevenSins]

Yeah, paralyse isn't the only way they can mess with people "sorry your beatstick is now a scheme runner this turn"

So far unmentioned but crooked men are also a decent tormented choice, paralyse, poison and (situationally) trapped schemes. Also they are hard to kill at range so if shooting is likely... And like drowned they have finish the job, which is akways a good thing

[asrian]

I always view (as an opponent of them) Crooked men as Resser Anti-Shooting, and Drowned as Anti-Melee. When I see either on the table across from me, I plan accordingly to have them meet members of my crew that don't give them their defense advantage. That said...crooked are just nasty up close. 

As an aside, I don't think Jack Daw can take Crooked men, can he? They are Resser faction, and they aren't natively tormented. I could be wrong, and please inform me if I am.

[Sezar]

Crookeds ARE Tormented