Can you play to theme?

[LordZombie]

I play with a theme all the time. I normally try and match up the theme to the strat with different masters. For me, it is more about having fun with a crew than winning the game.

[Vermicious Knid]

I think it's pretty rare in 2E for Masters to NOT be competetive in-theme. Most of them have some fairly good synergy with their thematic options. In almost all cases, you can select a thematic crew and do pretty well

Now if you are going to look at the question of if a certain Master works BETTER with their thematic Crews, that's really a different story. There's plenty of Masters who really do work best with their thematic choices, but on the other hand, some folks just work better with non-thematic options. It really just depends.

[Hateful Darkblack]

You can absolutely play in theme and have a successful, fun game.

[moxypoo]

I'll agree with everyone else and say that you can absolutely play in theme and still make a strong list.  It may not be the absolutely optimal list, but as long as you play well, you'll always be competitive.  I think one of the main draws to this game is that you can generally take whatever models you like the look of and still compete as long as you play well.

 

In my mind there are 3 classes of masters in terms of theme:

 

1.  Masters such as Zoraida, Tara, and Leveticus.  This class either supports any model they hire (through Obey, giving models Fast/Slow, etc.) or gives absolutely no support to their crew.  Either way you can hire any model and do well.  In my experience, it's usually completely up to the player whether they want to run in or out of theme when playing a master like this.

 

2. Masters such as Jacob Lynch, Yan Lo, or Jack Daw who have some synergies with a certain key word or model type but don't require that synergy to function.  For example, Lynch has more options when his crew can help him spread Brilliance, but he'll still work well with non-Darkened crews.   Jack and Yan Lo have synergy with Tormented and Ancestors, respectively, but they can still function fine without them.  Most crews I've seen with this class of master run mostly in theme models along with a few out of theme models.

 

3. Masters such as Collodi, Hoffman, or Nicodem who have very strong ties to a certain model type or characteristic.  These masters generally need some of their in theme models to run efficiently.  Trying to run Collodi without puppets or Hoffman without constructs usually doesn't go as well as running an in theme crew.

 

I think most masters are probably in class 2, and the masters that fall into the more extreme categories are fairly rare.  That said, I almost always play in theme unless I'm trying out some crazy combo I cooked up.  My crews are all painted in a particular theme, so I like to see them all together on the tabletop!

[The Zinc Lich]

The narrative focus of Malifaux is one of the things that drew me towards it; I find that I am writing stories in my head as I play the game. I tend to always play to theme because of that, even if the theme is fairly broad. There's no reason a convict gunslinger can't be desperate enough to throw in his lot with Hamelin, even if he doesn't, strictly speaking, fit the theme.

 

It does sort of annoy me when I play against someone who has absolutely no interest in theme. I have no idea how Mr. Graves balances his full time bouncing job at the honey pot with his side job following Izamu (or Kang or whatever other melee beater they brought) around, swatting him on the butt with a two-by-four to get him to move faster. It feels like he's everywhere I look, regardless of who the master is.

[Kadeton]

There's no reason a convict gunslinger can't be desperate enough to throw in his lot with Hamelin, even if he doesn't, strictly speaking, fit the theme.

 

Or enchanted by his Pipes, or driven mad by the Plague, or consciously pledging his allegiance to the Tyrant (like the Obedient Wretch). Generally speaking, there are lots of ways to justify individual models within a wider theme - anything goes, as long as you can make it into a good story.

[Vermicious Knid]

The narrative focus of Malifaux is one of the things that drew me towards it; I find that I am writing stories in my head as I play the game. I tend to always play to theme because of that, even if the theme is fairly broad. There's no reason a convict gunslinger can't be desperate enough to throw in his lot with Hamelin, even if he doesn't, strictly speaking, fit the theme.

Agree with this quite a lot. The storylines of Malifaux are pretty broad, and I find it fun to imagine different scenarios where unusual characters can find their way into different Masters' crews. For example, if I use Hans in my Lucious crew at some point, I sometimes find it fun to imagine a scene where Hans meets up with one of Lucious' spies/functionaries in a back alley somewhere and secures his job. Stuff like that.

I do also agree with your other point too about how certain non-thematic models seem to become crutches for people (like Graves, as you mentioned)

[Vermicious Knid]

As a side note, it can sometimes be fun to take a model that is non-theme, and do some sort of wacky paint job or conversion to make them seem more thematic.

As an example, I am currently working on a Teddy to use with my future Collodi crew (whenever the plastics are released). I am actually sculpting it from scratch so that rather than a giant teddy bear, my Teddy is actually an oversized demonic-looking Nutcracker. Not really expecting to use him in tournaments (thanks to the somewhat draconian conversion mentality that's invading tournaments these days) but it's definitely a fun project! It's cool to have an oversized evil puppet to hang out with the rest of Collodi's smaller puppets

Converting stuff to fit a theme is a fun little artistic touch you can add to this game

[Solicitor 6]

As a side note, it can sometimes be fun to take a model that is non-theme, and do some sort of wacky paint job or conversion to make them seem more thematic.

 

I agree and have done this with a lot of Arcanist beasts.

 

Colette is my default master, so I have turned several beasts into performing animals. 

 

I gave the Slateridge Mauler a fez and vest (Boris the Dancing Bear)

Cojo has a derby, tie, and french cuffs on his wrists w/cuff links

The Sabertooth Cerebus is performing a balancing act on some circus balls

and thanks to some green stuff my metal Myranda bears a striking resemblance to Bettie Paige in her classic Jungle Girl outfit (complete with her signature bangs)

[bertmac]

Any female merc working for seamus seems wrong to me. After the mission we know he's gonna be waiting for her to turn her back on him so he can shoot her and raise her as another belle!

[mythicFOX]

Thing I always think about this though is that I don't believe all models in your crew know they're working together. You may actually be playing with a bunch of people who think they're acting independently, not knowing it's all part of someone's wider scheme. Like the Colette story in Crossroads.

 

Hans may have been hired through an intermediary to snipe a protégé, with no knowledge that the Neverborn planting evidence up field of him involved in the same nefarious scheme.  Wheels within wheels. 

[MasterDisaster]

What is this filth rant you and MD are on? Mr. I will start playing Ulix.

 

You know EXACTLY what we mean! 

 

I often try to play pure in-theme lists and often do very well. Sometimes I deviate a little (Tots with Lynch for example) but I find the themed crews tend to be much more fun although I'm not opposed to an all out smash up with the most optimal crew possible. 

[bertmac]

I'm a big fan of going with a small elite crew for reckoning games especially if you get another killy scheme to go with it! No worrying about synergies just out and out smashing!

[SpiralngCadavr]

Moxy, for category 1, I think there's very little that's actually the category of "support anything or no support at all"... or, rather, I think support is a 2-way street (i.e. crew-Master interactions that specifically support a Master are just as important as Master-Crew interactions that specifically support a given minion), and that abilities need to be considered in a wider context than just things that name a given type:

 

You listed Leveticus as universally applying support, but, he's got a specific : Entropic Demise only interacts with thematic models, while being able to spawn more Abominations directly feeds into the Abomination ball, and Alyce's Burn Out works hugely better on models that can trigger heal back up than on some random robot who'll be limping around until shot.

 

You listed Tara, who you can play very heavily to the Bury mechanic, which goes from being a stalling/defensive ability to an offensive one, only around her, and the Nothing Beast (unless opinions have changed) is something that really only works with her. While anyone can benefit from Fast, she's got the only gallery of models that benefits from giving the enemy Fast.

 

 

 

I feel pretty strongly that conservatively 4/5 Masters are some version of "has extra interactions in-theme, but can go out of it" rather than the outliers of strong interdependence or lack thereof.

[Kadeton]

I feel pretty strongly that conservatively 4/5 Masters are some version of "has extra interactions in-theme, but can go out of it" rather than the outliers of strong interdependence or lack thereof.

 

Very conservatively. I'd say there are no Masters that greatly suffer from hiring models out of theme, and I can't think of any that don't get some benefit for hiring in theme. Drawing lines anywhere else is pretty arbitrary.

[moxypoo]

Thing I always think about this though is that I don't believe all models in your crew know they're working together. You may actually be playing with a bunch of people who think they're acting independently, not knowing it's all part of someone's wider scheme. Like the Colette story in Crossroads.

 

Hans may have been hired through an intermediary to snipe a protégé, with no knowledge that the Neverborn planting evidence up field of him involved in the same nefarious scheme.  Wheels within wheels. 

 

I really like this!  There are definitely some masters who seem to like spinning elaborate webs where this idea would fit perfectly.  Seems like you could work this into a campaign somehow...

 

Moxy, for category 1, I think there's very little that's actually the category of "support anything or no support at all"... or, rather, I think support is a 2-way street (i.e. crew-Master interactions that specifically support a Master are just as important as Master-Crew interactions that specifically support a given minion), and that abilities need to be considered in a wider context than just things that name a given type:

 

You listed Leveticus as universally applying support, but, he's got a specific : Entropic Demise only interacts with thematic models, while being able to spawn more Abominations directly feeds into the Abomination ball, and Alyce's Burn Out works hugely better on models that can trigger heal back up than on some random robot who'll be limping around until shot.

 

I think I may have not been entirely clear with listing Leveticus; I would place him into the sub-category of "universally not providing support."  There are a few things he does that interact with his thematic crew, (like Entropic Demise) but his overall interaction with his crew is very limited.  For example, I can get just as much mileage out of Leveticus whether running his thematic crew or a random miss-mash of undead and constructs. 

 

 

You listed Tara, who you can play very heavily to the Bury mechanic, which goes from being a stalling/defensive ability to an offensive one, only around her, and the Nothing Beast (unless opinions have changed) is something that really only works with her. While anyone can benefit from Fast, she's got the only gallery of models that benefits from giving the enemy Fast.

 

 

You are correct in everything you said here.  I was coming from the angle that "any model can benefit from Fast."  I tend to play Tara with heavy use of Temporal Shift and Pull the Void which work to control AP on either side of the table regardless of whether you're running a bunch of mercs or Death Marshals and Void Critters.

 

 

I feel pretty strongly that conservatively 4/5 Masters are some version of "has extra interactions in-theme, but can go out of it" rather than the outliers of strong interdependence or lack thereof.

 

I agree, and I mentioned something to this effect towards the ends of the post you're referring to.  I may have been a little too cut and dry in my earlier post, so I'll revise my original wording to say: All masters can do perfectly fine while staying in theme, but some masters can go out of theme more easily than others.  The ones that can go out of theme more easily tend to be ones that support all or none of their crew, while ones that have a more difficult time tend to be closely linked to a specific characteristic/keyword.

 

@OP:  Don't let my categorizations dissuade you from trying any models you want with your chosen master!  I like to have things dissected and categorized; just the way my mind works.

[J_D]

Thing I always think about this though is that I don't believe all models in your crew know they're working together. You may actually be playing with a bunch of people who think they're acting independently, not knowing it's all part of someone's wider scheme. Like the Colette story in Crossroads.

 

Hans may have been hired through an intermediary to snipe a protégé, with no knowledge that the Neverborn planting evidence up field of him involved in the same nefarious scheme.  Wheels within wheels.

Given that I just got a Lucius crew, this idea just blew my mind on how to expand it. You could justify nearly any Merc working for this sneaky bastard.

[Bengt]

Thing I always think about this though is that I don't believe all models in your crew know they're working together. You may actually be playing with a bunch of people who think they're acting independently, not knowing it's all part of someone's wider scheme. Like the Colette story in Crossroads.

 

Hans may have been hired through an intermediary to snipe a protégé, with no knowledge that the Neverborn planting evidence up field of him involved in the same nefarious scheme.  Wheels within wheels. 

To the cynic in me this just seems like an excuse to ignore themes.

 

---

 

On a completely different note. Most seems to agree that most Masters can do well with a variety of models, but are there non-Masters that really require specific Master to function? (Ignoring things like totems and Vicky Blood that can only be hired by a specific Master in the first place).

[SpiralngCadavr]

Moxy, I agree that there's a gradation in ease with which you can go out of theme, however, I don't think you're taking full advantage of synergies in this game if you think that Tara or Leveticus offer no specific support to their thematic crews, keywords or no.

[moxypoo]

Moxy, I agree that there's a gradation in ease with which you can go out of theme, however, I don't think you're taking full advantage of synergies in this game if you think that Tara or Leveticus offer no specific support to their thematic crews, keywords or no.

 

I think we're just arguing level of amplitude of various synergies here.  Leveticus and Tara can absolutely offer synergy to their thematic crew, and I take full advantage of those synergies when I use those masters.

 

The point that I'm trying to make is that not all synergies exist on the same level.  Running Leveticus and being unable to use Entropic Demise is not the same as running Hoffman without being able to use Machine Puppet.  That's the reason I categorized the masters like I did.  They offer different levels of synergy to their thematic crews; therefore, some masters can more easily go out of theme than others.

 

There are no masters that don't have at least some synergy with their basic crew, which I think exemplifies the superior design of Malifaux.

 

On a completely different note. Most seems to agree that most Masters can do well with a variety of models, but are there non-Masters that really require specific Master to function? (Ignoring things like totems and Vicky Blood that can only be hired by a specific Master in the first place).

 

This is a really good question, and I'd be really interested to hear thoughts on this.  I can't think of any off the top of my head.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Re: no synergy, Misaki basically has no synergy with her crew, as her only support ability is a generic last-blossom upgrade, and her lack of suit reliance doesn't even factor in much since her whole thematic crew isn't really suit-reliant.

 

My problem comes from the absolute terms of "all" or "none" that you keep using when that's categorically untrue, rather than gradation.

 

 

Re: master reliance, The Nothing Beast is pretty fragile without being taxied, to the point where I'd never take it outside of a Tara list, and there are a number of pieces where I'd only take them if focusing on a specific interaction that their Master handles best, such as Sammael or Beckoners, where if you're not running them with a given condition etc., they're overpriced and, while it's possible to build lists that they can run in, at the point where you're getting the most mileage out of them, you're probably better off just running that crew under their Master.

[Kadeton]

The point that I'm trying to make is that not all synergies exist on the same level.  Running Leveticus and being unable to use Entropic Demise is not the same as running Hoffman without being able to use Machine Puppet.  That's the reason I categorized the masters like I did.  They offer different levels of synergy to their thematic crews; therefore, some masters can more easily go out of theme than others.

 

Some "themes" are vastly broader than others - Hoffman's theme is "Constructs", and yes, it would be very challenging to run him entirely outside of that theme (in the same way that Nicodem's theme is "Undead", and running him without any would be strange), but that theme offers a huge variety of stuff to choose from with tools for any situation. When a Master's theme becomes more specific, like Foundry or Last-Blossom, there's more pressure to step out of theme (though those Masters with narrow themes often have broader synergies that make up for it). At the far end of the scale, you've got incredibly specific themes like Sisters, where it's not actually possible to run an entirely in-theme crew, unless you also include "Mercenaries" as being thematic for Viktoria. Thematic synergies tend to be more important with broader themes, so it naturally follows that Masters with narrow themes find it more beneficial to hire outsiders - but everyone can still benefit from dipping their toes in the larger pool.

[ehren37]

I really want to get a crew of a bunch of desperate mercenaries  and pigs lead by Old Major. Just how down on their luck are those guys to follow a pig? And how did they negotiate their pay?

[zFiend]

I really want to get a crew of a bunch of desperate mercenaries and pigs lead by Old Major. Just how down on their luck are those guys to follow a pig? And how did they negotiate their pay?

Hahahahaaha. Amazing.

[moxypoo]

Re: no synergy, Misaki basically has no synergy with her crew, as her only support ability is a generic last-blossom upgrade, and her lack of suit reliance doesn't even factor in much since her whole thematic crew isn't really suit-reliant.

 

My problem comes from the absolute terms of "all" or "none" that you keep using when that's categorically untrue, rather than gradation.

 

Maybe I should soften my terminology and say "almost none" or "almost all" instead.  Although I am confused that you use the example of Misaki having no synergy with her crew beyond a generic upgrade to counter my point.  It seems that Misaki fits into the "almost no" support category pretty well.

 

I really want to get a crew of a bunch of desperate mercenaries  and pigs lead by Old Major. Just how down on their luck are those guys to follow a pig? And how did they negotiate their pay?

 

So much win!  There have to be some other funny crews like this out there.