How many times do you need to play a Master (or Henchmen)?

[Far_Traveler]

Two question:

 

1. In general,  how many times do you need to play a Master (or henchmen) to consider being done with them? By being done, I mean to say that you have learned their abilities inside and out?

 

2. How many times does it take to play a Master or henchmen to be tired of them and want to move on?

 

For question 1, I have personally set a goal of playing with each Master or henchmen twenty times, the same rule for any miniature game I play It seems a good number as my previous one of ten was far too short. Its also the answer for question 2 as I like trying out new models. For a friend of mine its a year with each model and he gets very good at knowing the ins and outs better.

 

What's your answers and why?

[Adran]

20 is probably far too low even for an experienced player, as you don't get much chance to look at interaction with crew.

At that point you probably have a good idea of what they do, but there are very few that I would think you coukld be even close to claiming you have learned them insode out.

Of course, playign the exact same crew 20 times, and you've probably got a good idea of its interactions, but change 1 upgrade (or even scheme) and it can sometimes have a huge impact in how they play.

 

For 2, that depends. Some masters I just have no interest in playing. Others I could happily play 100s of times in a year.

[Machiavelli]

I don't think there's a set answer; it will depend on your goals. For yourself, the goal being to know the master/henchman inside-out then my answer would be: as many times as it takes you to remember what they can do. However, if you're talking about knowing how to use the master in the context of a battle, varying situations and so on, then surely the answer depends on several factors, the priority being quality of opposition and willingness to learn. For myself, I've learnt more playing ten times against a very good opponent who is happy to point out to you his thoughts and tips than one hundred times against an opponent less than myself. I wouldn't say you can put a definite number on it.

 

As for getting tired of a mini, well that again depends again on yourself. I've seen players use the same figures over and over because they love them, their style and synergy, and others flit from faction to faction. Usually I find the best players (and nicest) stick with a core group and learn those inside out, buying new minions and styles to achieve different goals and they're often willing to help players as they know their crews well. As they like their crews they tend to be less 'win-at-all-costs' to, more prone to experimentation and fun. The players I've found who jump from group to group tend to usually just want to win and they're looking for that magic combo to do that. As soon as they get beat several times with one master/faction, they jump ship. Not saying every guy who has a load of figures is like that, but it's a trend I've seen plenty.

 

For myself, both answers are arbitrary. I like to have a small pool to select from, but I'm a huge collector as well as gamer. I'm currently running Pandora and have Lillith sitting on the back being painted up. Once she's ready, I'll run her to mix things up but my main is still Pandora. Meanwhile I'll keep painting other crews for fun

 

(I've not really answered anything other than 'depends on you?' have I? Sorry pal... I tried.)

[Kogan Style]

Question 2 is very difficult, as Henchmen's roles can change with the Master they are paired with. From my experience Sybelle plays very different when paired with Molly than Seamus, and different again with Nicodem:

 

Molly - Sybelle moves her about for a zero, boosts belles

Seamus -  Sybelle Shrieks and provides Wp duels while also boosting belles. 

Nicodem - Corpse counter generation through Corpse bloat and becoming more of a powerhouse through buffs from Nicodem.

 

I'm never bored of playing Seamus even though I know him very well, and new waves of models offer other synergies that previously were unavailable. I know when I want to use Back Alley, I know when I should summon a new Belle, but applying that knowledge?  Every game is different, which keeps it fresh.

[dgraz]

(I've not really answered anything other than 'depends on you?' have I? Sorry pal... I tried.)

The only correct answer to questions like this is 'depends on the individual'.

[LunarSol]

I like to cycle constantly, so... 1.  Generally my process of finding favorites is to cycle over a list of everything I own and eventually start skipping over the ones I'm less enamored with until I hone down to a few favorites.  If the pool starts to feel small there always seems something shiny worth adding to it.

[mythicFOX]

From a personal perspective;

 

1) Thirty to sixty, depending on the master. It's more about game rate for me than a raw number, to be competitively sharp I need to average ten games a month. So I guess I'm really saying three to six months of playtime. 

 

2) It's only happened playing the same master strait for 90 games or so (nine months).

[Malsqueek]

I know I didn't even get good with Pandora until about forty or so games, but she is a little more finesse than some of the others. I'd bet you could get a good handle on some more straight forward masters in twenty games, but there's some out there that you would only just be beginning to understand how they want to be played.

[Malsqueek]

I know I didn't even get good with Pandora until about forty or so games, but she is a little more finesse than some of the others. I'd bet you could get a good handle on some more straight forward masters in twenty games, but there's some out there that you would only just be beginning to understand how they want to be played.

[Nicodemic]

What might speed up learning Crews/Masters is to start a journal or notebook where you write down your experiences and sum them up into weaknesses, strengths, specific synergies, whatever. and with this you can also write down these sort of things about your opponents crews/Master who may play them differently so you'll have a few different perspectives on one master, in a shorter amount of time, and not have to worry about remembering all the specifics of EVERY single crew, you can hear who your facing and flip open your notebook and get a quick reminder.

 

I've been meaning to start one for a awhile...

 

as far as getting bored of models i myself have almost been exclusively playing Nicodem for over a year and it never gets old, even though he might be.

[Machiavelli]

Ah, the trusty tactic notebook. Definitely do it! Even if its just something basic like 'this master worked well against.... bla bla.' Amazing what you don't remember until you re-read it. It'll improve your game and learning curve loads, and your opponent wont be bothered if you're just writing bullet points and only takes a couple seconds

[Omenbringer]

Aside from "depends upon you", it also depends upon the intended play style of the Master/ crew. Some crews just naturally favor a specific play style that may or may not be conducive to the player. Som'er and Seamus for example clicked very easy for me as I generally favor their play styles more than say Leveticus, the Dreamer or the Viks.

 

I would also add that it really depends upon the research you invest and the quality of it. Watching other good players and combing the online resources such as Pullmyfinger can greatly speed the process. The games esoterica such as deck cycling, deck manipulation, out activation, etc and its influence on the crew also play a role (some crews are much more hampered by it than others).

 

With that said, 20 games is probably a reasonable sweet spot for most people to know how the crew functions together, what each model's role generally is and not having to look at the cards for everything. 40 is probably where I would say you really know the crew and most of its common tricks (best composition for given Strat/ Schemes, main tactics, potent combos, etc), dont have to look at the cards much and rarely forget to employ those more niche abilities. 60 is where you would really start to say you have "mastered" a given crew and things like the random Strat/ Scheme or opponents crew choice lose a lot of affect on whether you win or lose.

 

As for when do I lose interest in a particular crew? I haven't lost interest in Som'er Teeth Jones and his Bayou Brethren or Seamus and his Ladies of the Night in over 5 years of play.

[Lord Byron]

I find that I just have to play them until I'm comfy. I have no set time limit to learn them, sometimes it feels like under 5 games for others it's game after game after game. I personally hardly ever get tired of a model. I'll play most things for years before I decide I need to move on. I guess I'm a simple soul when it comes to my gaming.

[EnternalVoid]

I am going to have to echo that is varies per person but also agree it also depends on the master.  Some masters will click far better than others for people.  I know it takes me alot less than others I have played again but I am also the sort that generally does the mental exercise of asking myself how would I play that crew when I look at my opponent's crews.  I also tend to remember abilities, attacks, and stats of my opponent's models better than they do.  We are currently doing an achievement league thing and one of the achievements you can get more than one time is play a different faction and to play a master you have never used before.  I have decided I want to get all 7 of the faction points and try to get the master you have never played before for them as well.  I have really enjoyed it as I get to do stuff that I have never got to use before and often stop before it can be used on me.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Here's what I find on the learning curve:

 

After one game playing a Master or Henchman, you get it. You understand how most of the powers work. You've learned the basic combinations, you know how the pieces fit together, you've misread the cards and then learned better, you've made four or five boneheaded mistakes and won't do them again, and your future games with or against that Master/Henchman will be much more informed. You can explain the Master to others without making any big errors.

 

After five games, you get it. You can start seriously competing. You've figured out how you play that Master/Henchman. You've discovered six or seven really powerful combinations. You've tailored your Crew with models that match your style, and you've learned which schemes you can do and which ones are hopeless cases. 

 

You'll get bored of the Master if you play it all the time. You'll probably want to try a new Master if you play the same one five times in a month without playing anything else. Maybe three times in a month if you're flighty. If you only play occasionally, you'll never get bored.

 

That's my experience.

[SpiralngCadavr]

I'd say about 3-5 games before I have a feel for a master. Don't think I've ever gotten to the point of feeling like I've mastered a Master, though there are some that I feel I play naturally now.

 

Regarding getting tired of a Master, there have been some I didn't like playing after a few games, but I haven't gotten tired of any I like.

[paradoxstorm]

One more "it depends" response.

 

Playing regularly speeds the learning.  Playing only occasionally leaves you relearning stuff.

 

Study style and skills.  Tactic notebooks, listening to podcasts, studying stat cards during down times, and other stuff can all speed learning if used with some skill.  

 

Prior experience.  Having mastered the rules of the game means more time/effort to mastering the master.  

 

etc, etc, etc.   

[katadder]

think its harder when knowing what your opponent does, I lost a game the other day when my Marcus got killed by madame sybelle as I didnt have 2 cards to discard because I had just used one to lower her to a negative damage flip and didnt realise her trigger.

[M_Ruckuss]

From a personal perspective;

 

1) Thirty to sixty, depending on the master. It's more about game rate for me than a raw number, to be competitively sharp I need to average ten games a month. So I guess I'm really saying three to six months of playtime. 

 

2) It's only happened playing the same master strait for 90 games or so (nine months).

To master a master, James is right-by playing games chronologically close against good opponents, it will cut down the time is takes. It's also subjective however- some masters suit your play style more or less so will need different amounts of practise. You will also find you are discovering new or different ways to do things.

In terms of boredom, variety is the spice of life, but there are some things I can do every day- depends on your personality....!

[SpectreEliteGaming]

For me, most of the understanding of a crew and their dynamics comes strategically and on an academic level. Once you have a good understanding of the crew, beforehand, then you can apply that logic practically within the game.

To dive into a game with a crew that you don't understand is not efficient. Practical application is about tweaking and testing - the understanding is from studying the crew beforehand. Use primers/reviews/pullmyfinger/battlereports.

Trying to figure a crew out yourself takes to long - learn from the knowledge and mistakes of others and then build on it.

That's the way I see it anyway - my goal is optimization so I usually see games as application and tests. If I want to have fun, we'll play house story modes or multiplayer or moooooostly hardcore >8)

Also, you can always run blank base proxy games with a buddy to tweak or test if you don't have the models or just for convenience.

[osoi]

The only correct answer to questions like this is 'depends on the individual'.

 Couldnt agree more. Even if I use a Master/Henchman for only a few games and dont explore them completely I feel that I get a good understanding of what they do and how they operate. I might not use all their abilities in thos egames but I am exposed to seeing what choices they offer.

 

When I play a Master for a long time it sbecause I enjoy their style of play Seamus, Hoffman, Misaki and Mei Feng are all masters who fall into that camp with me that I have used a lot because I enjoy using them. As I enjoy using these masters it takes a lot for me to get bored with them and none of thos elisted fall into that category yet and the main reason Im not playing them is beacuse I am expanding my horizons a lot at the moment so deliberately playing othe masters who may have had a reduced interest for me before in the effort to understand their playstyle(s), options and relative strengths and weaknesses.

[TehMik]

As has been said many times, depends on the person. My wife can play a master 3-5 times then understand maybe 95% of a master's tricks. By 10 times one could say she's mastered the, er, master.

I, on the other hand, am the complete opposite. It'll take me a long time to finally know a master inside and out.

But even then, I think your original question is flawed. "How quickly can one understand the theory behind a master" may be a better way of wording it. Because of the near infinite (or just a lot) combinations of opponents/strats/schemes it would be almost impossible to play all permutations of the game. Not to mention the effect of opponents' play styles.