Help Me Beat Lilith

[MrKittens]

Hello all,

 

I'm hoping to get some insight on how to handle playing against Lilith.  Specifically, a player at our store is undefeated with her, and is starting to get a little bored of no-challenge games (or at best, games where it's challenging, but the outcome is still known). 

 

The problem is mostly Tangle Shadows.  Once it goes off only once, the match is won; she's able to Grow a new Mature Nephilim out of the model you're about to lose (and she's smart enough to Tangle models she can kill easily enough), and you're stuck dealing with whatever she sent your way... that'll still hurt you on its way out with Black Blood, scoring more damage on the way.  Between its Lure and Walk equivalents (to represent the movement that happens), she's spent 1 AP, but earned back about 4-6, and between the dead/grown models, swings the game by about 10 stones.  Yikes.

 

I know the game is about VPs, but since she's usually completely tabled her opponents by the bottom of turn 3, she can mop up with whatever Scenarios/Schemes she wants after that to her heart's content.  It's not like you can run from Lilith.

 

My first thought was to simply go with The Chuckman, since he denies Grow completely, but realized that she can ignore LoS for Tangle, and he's awfully useless if not in the midst of his robo-buddies, so that's out. 

 

While wracking my brain with a buddy, he pointed out to me Sidir's upgrade, By Your Side, that would force a single attack to target him.  That would include Tangle Shadows, unless we're mistaken... which he would then ignore with Laugh Off.  So, the Guild has a counter built in, splendid!  But, that only stops one per turn, and Tangle Shadows is (somehow) a 1 action. 

 

The next idea was to take Sonnia; if what I'm afraid of is a spell, Sonnia's the anwer, right?  If everyone snuggles with her and her counterspell aura, the Lilith player is forced to use Soulstones to Tangle Shadows (sometimes even use stones and a card).  That's a lot steeper a price to pay, which could shut her down.  So, Sonnia with her three favored Upgrades (firewall, counterspell, Witchlings) and Sidir with his upgrade bring us to 13 stones out of the local-meta-favored 35.

 

The question is, where to go from here?  I know that more Witchlings would be the usual suggestion, but I don't think that's the right way to go, this time... the point is to not let living models get near Lilith for Growth purposes, and, well, they kind of do that (get close and die).  I know setting stuff on fire is great and all, but I think it's a bad trade this time.  Instead, I was thinking of the Friekorps Specialist to get the Burning Train chugging.  What do you all think?  He's a little short ranged, but does the Burning job well, and can stay relatively close to Sonnia.

 

Lastly, I was thinking of an Austringer/Rifleman combo.  Riflemen get better after other Guardsfolks, and Austringers are great on their own.

 

So,

 

Sonnia (with three upgrades)           3

Sidir with By Your Side                     10

Friekorps Specialist                          9

Austringer                                        6

Rifleman                                          5

Total                                                33 (two spare stones)

 

Having such a small cache on Sonnia stings, but I'm not sure what else to run.  This is, however, my first draft of How To Survive Lilith.  As a favor to myself, to the Lilith player (who wants to stop feeling so bad about pitilessly whupping everyone) and the rest of the store in general, what do you suggest?  I'm fairly set on Sonnia and Sidir, but the rest of the list is negotiable.

 

Between me and the other Guild player, we have access to most of the faction's models. 

[Dirial]

Hm, I mostly just shoot her dead with Criid or Samael. Never had a big problem with her, truth be told. Criid laughs about her Df 7, and Lilith can tangle Witchlings all day long if she wants to: they will just explode in her face, set her on fire, and Criid can always make more.

 

Granted, I never play 35 SS. That's just too small for an interesting or even balanced game in my opinion.

 

I will think about any useful advice I might be able to give, but as said, I never found her too challenging (at least not more than other Neverborn Masters).

[Math Mathonwy]

35SS leads to weird games. I strongly suggest playing 45-50SS games. In 35 that Tangle is going to to be extra strong, especially if used to Grow.

[DocSchlock]

I will second playing 40-50SS games. It really changes the dynamic for the better, and a lot of rules are just too powerful for smaller stone games.

[Tuttleboy]

I'll get on the bandwagon with the idea to pump up the game size to 50ish SS. At lower totals summoning or growing something has a tendency to break the game a bit. Sonnia's summon may help against Lilith, but you'll need to keep some cards or be very stingy with your SS to make sure you can get the summon off.

[Patzer]

Attack Lilith's Wp.

[Myyrä]

Attack Lilith's Wp.

If you can figure out an effective way to attack Lilith's Wp using Guild, please share.

[Dirial]

Attack Lilith's Wp.

 

That's easier said than done. Wp attacks are not very widespread in Guild. And while it great to dump Lilith into a Pine Box, Lilith usually stays clear of Death Marshals if she's smart.

[Patzer]

That's easier said than done. Wp attacks are not very widespread in Guild. And while it great to dump Lilith into a Pine Box, Lilith usually stays clear of Death Marshals if she's smart.

Bishop can do it. Guild McMourning can hire Nurses which will have a hey-day against Lilith. Other than that, I have no idea. Guild really stinks when it comes to attacking wp. Never thought it was this bad.

Sonnia, her totem, heaps of Witchlings, and two Austringers. That should be enough to smoke Lilith out. Sonnia can outmatch even Lilith's ridiculous defence and has better range on her attack than Lilith. Also, if Lilith tags a Witchling with Tangle and goes for the kill, she will burn and Sonnia can see her.

[akaean]

The Chuckman?  I assume you are talking about Hoffman?  He cannot be plucked if he has taken Remote Mines (since that prevents him from being pushed or moved).  So if you are really worried about Lilith grabbing him, she can't.  What is dangerous is her picking up your constructs.  And moving them out of the Hoffball.  That said.  Many of Hoffman's models are minions.  Which mean he isn't growing Matures out of them, she is unlikely to pick up your Peacekeeper, because the chariot of doom will be at df6, ml7, defensive +2, and probably fast from machine puppet.  Otherwise the Peacekeeper is fast enough to get right into Lilith's face even with her illusiory forest, remember you can give him the nimble upgrade, slap fast on him from the machine puppet trigger, which is ANOTHER move on top of that.   Barreling into her with the Hoffball can do a lot to put her on the back foot.

 

I believe Rapid Growth is a  , so if he takes it on Barbaros it can be shut down with dampening field.  Dampening Field Shuts down Barbaros pretty hard, he is a lot less nasty without challenge.

 

If you are worried about growing matures, Don't take Enforcers or Henchmen.  Take Minions.  He'll still be able to grow his tots, but only a master kill will get a mature, and Tots tend to be better scheme runners than Youngs anyway.  Also an Austringer can one shot a Tot if you have a severe card in hand, and doesn't care about illusory forest like most shooters.  Get kills while you can, and remember to spread out and move towards completing the objectives.  Taking minions has the added benefit of giving you an activation edge against your opponent.  And Guild have some awesome minions.  

[Dirial]

Please note that (I believe) neither Sidir nor Hoffmann are immune to Tangle, as it's a Place, not a Push or Move. Don't have the cards at the moment, so please forgive me if I'm wrong.

[Jimbobovalsocks]

Mrkittens, is it possible that your opponent has made a mistake with tangle of shadows and that's why it's so OP? In your post you say that 'she's able to grow a mature nephilim out of the model you're about to lose' suggesting that she is always growing mature nephilim out of any model when it should be only masters. I reckon that could be your issue!

[MrKittens]

That's a point of rules-specificity I'd missed regarding pushes/moves/places; darn.  There goes that plan, I thought we had something that could stop Tangling.  Back to the drawing board.

 

I'd have to take a survey of the folks she's beaten, but no, I think that she's always been able to manage an Enforcer+ for the maturation Growth.  Good question, but no, I think she's just a really good player on top of Lilith's inherent strengths. 

 

I mean no disrespect, but I balk at the idea of taking nothing but Minions; I've found that, to take down big models, you need big models.  I'm not quite sure how I'd take out a Mature Nephilim (which she can still take at list building) with just Minions, especially if the first time I'm able to draw LoS is when it's appeared in melee range and is eating my models.

[Dirial]

I mean no disrespect, but I balk at the idea of taking nothing but Minions; I've found that, to take down big models, you need big models.  I'm not quite sure how I'd take out a Mature Nephilim (which she can still take at list building) with just Minions, especially if the first time I'm able to draw LoS is when it's appeared in melee range and is eating my models.

 

Also no disrespect, but it's not easy to find a Henchman who punches as hard as two Witchling Stalkers (as you get two for the same cost). Those guys are awesome at offense, especially if they don't have to get over to the enemy.

[Math Mathonwy]

Guild McMourning can hire Nurses which will have a hey-day against Lilith.

This is how I won my latest match against Lilith. Paralyzing her for two turns really took the wind out of her sails.

[akaean]

I mean no disrespect, but I balk at the idea of taking nothing but Minions; I've found that, to take down big models, you need big models.  I'm not quite sure how I'd take out a Mature Nephilim (which she can still take at list building) with just Minions, especially if the first time I'm able to draw LoS is when it's appeared in melee range and is eating my models.

 

Guild have some incredibly potent minons, and they are more than capable of killing bigger enemies.

- Death Marshals can shove somebody in a box, up to and including Lilith Herself.  A 6 ss minion with the ability to take almost anything out of the game for extended periods of time should never be underestimated.

- I've killed opposing Masters with a Hunter, multiple times.

- Wardens are capable of handling almost anything thrown at them, as long as you have tomes in hand and you get your armour.

- Lawyers can disable their targets with Objection, and Fees can and does cripple beatstick models

- Stalkers as previously mentioned hit silly hard for their cost in close combat.

 

Most models in Malifaux can be taken down by Minions, you just have to keep hitting them.

[HowNot2Wargame]

I put her in the death marshall box for three turns if that gives you a clue. I was also using Lucius for the first time, and red tape really sealed the mature's hitting power.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I have to support the attack her wp suggestion. I've never lost a match to Lilith using Seamus, mainly because I abuse her wp mercilessly. Most games the instant a nurse gets within range Lilith becomes a garden gnome for the rest of the encounter.

I'd try some guild mcmorning and see how you fare.

[GuySmiley]

Could you provide a little more information MrKittens? Does the person playing Lilith have any insights in how he would beat it. Sometimes the best way to understand the weakness of a model is by talking to the source who works so hard on covering that weakness up. My other question is about board set up. Is the issue you are having that Lilith is using tangled shadows from out of line of sight or just in general? My last question is does the Lilith player just go for the kill or work on schemes? (mostly to determine how aggressive they are)

 

 

A few thoughts on different models:

 

Lawyer: Lilly only has 10 wounds. These models can go right for that weaker WP stat. Neverborn also struggle with ways to clear conditions. So Fees will slow her down a fair amount if it hurts her to much to hurt you. Also with highest authority you can work on cutting down that soul stone pool or at least the number of actions she has after she pulls them. They are minion models so no mature out of these guys. But a solid stat line means she will have to at least work on taking them down. 

 

Executioner: I am hesitant to put in high cost models when you are playing so few stones. Also he is an enforcer. However, with his reach he can attack neverborn outside of black blood range. Also he is terrifying which can cause Lilly to at least deal with a wp stat. Knowing that he will likely be a huge target for grow you can also try and keep him back and away. Possibly baiting Lilith to come out to far, or used with a marshal to get him into a fight.  Lastly don't overlook that he has the potential to kill a model outright with bloody exhibition. If can be a pain to clean out a hand of cards but with lucky drain magic or distract triggers you can force the issue. 

 

Stalkers: If he likes to take primordial magic to really cultivate his starting hand then you should consider a stalker. Not because it will change much with him drawing cards but it gives you another option for if he starts to nullify models. 

 

Witchling Handler: Another enforcer with a pretty nice statline. She also comes with a trigger which can hurt Lilly a bunch if she fails tangled shadows. Additionally it gives you some ways to hand out burning conditions and some movement help. 

 

Watcher: This is my last quick thought. He is stubborn(Judge can have this with the unrelenting leader upgrade). A good scheme runner. In the end if you can get your schemes done and he is spending the game trying to table you. It is likely that he won't have time to score his. Although much of that still depends on what scheme and strategy is flipped. 

 

One last thought for what it is worth. You know your playstyle better than anyone else. Look to the models that fit your style of play the best and then see if there is a way you can create opportunity. 

[ArcticPangolin]

Pretty much what everyone else has said. Have you also tried swapping crews? It may just be that 35SS in your pool of players is a particular sweet spot for Lilith, but using the others' models might help both of you see some more of the strengths and/or weaknesses of each others crews.

[Myyrä]

Lawyer's Fees can't be used on master models and bringing executioner is usually just feeding Lilith an enforcer model for Mature.

Lilith has low wounds, so all damage you can get through, will be felt. If she is hiding outside LoS, Austringers can make her change her mind with Sh 7 and ability to ignore LoS.

Guild's best bet is usually to bring models with enough skill that they can hit over that high defence. It is usually a good idea to bring such models against all neverborn crews, because high defence seems to be a thing in that faction.

[MasterDisaster]

I will second playing 40-50SS games. It really changes the dynamic for the better, and a lot of rules are just too powerful for smaller stone games.

 

I again agree with this. 35ss creates massive game unbalance. Nico at 35ss is utterly overpowered in comparison to say Lilith who can't summon anything. The game was designed to be balanced at 50ss. Try kicking her teeth in at 50ss instead. Also I noticed in the OP that you are building a list before the game... BIG no no. Build the list to suit the schemes and strategies and not to counter a Master. VP win the game, not deleting your opponent's crew. 

[Math Mathonwy]

Lawyer: Lilly only has 10 wounds. These models can go right for that weaker WP stat. Neverborn also struggle with ways to clear conditions. So Fees will slow her down a fair amount if it hurts her to much to hurt you. Also with highest authority you can work on cutting down that soul stone pool or at least the number of actions she has after she pulls them. They are minion models so no mature out of these guys. But a solid stat line means she will have to at least work on taking them down.

Fees cannot be placed on Leaders. Also, when using it against Black Blood models in general, extreme care should be exercised.

[MrKittens]

 Also I noticed in the OP that you are building a list before the game... BIG no no. Build the list to suit the schemes and strategies and not to counter a Master. VP win the game, not deleting your opponent's crew. 

 

I did point out, I think, that she's often tabled her opponents by the bottom of turn 3.  If my entire force is off the board by then, I can't really accomplish schemes or strategies (or, at least, she'll always be able to pull ahead if I've tried by then).  Also, playing an avoidance game against her is impossible due to her speed, the speed of the Nephilim, and Tangle Shadows.  The first step to gaining any VPs will be putting up some sort of defense against Lilith.  This is the only Master against whom I build like this, as she is, by current experience, unbeatable (one person claims to have beaten her with Mei Feng, for exactly the reason I'm pointing out here: Steam Cloud counters Tangle Shadows).

 

I'm dubious about going to 50 stones; it seems like she'd gain more out of it than anyone else would, but I'll bring it up at my store. 

 

What I'm taking from the thread so far is that no one else is having this problem, that I should go to 50 stones, and that I should have models target her Wp.  I hope to get more feedback on specifics than this, becuase I can't make a lot of use out of that advice; no one else having this problem doesn't help me, going to 50 stones gives both players more tools, and the Guild isn't exactly saturated with Wp attacks.  I'd been thinking Lawyers, frankly, until it was pointed out they don't work. 

[Dirial]

going to 50 stones gives both players more tools

 

I'd like to point out that it also lessens the impact one model, even a Master, has on the game, as their 3 AP are less of the overall AP.

 

I'm really a bit surprised that you have such problems with Tangle Shadows. It's a great spell, no doubt, but it's only Ca 5 and needs a Mask if I remember correctly. Not that easy to pull off consistently.

 

Also, what you really should have taken from the thread: try Sonnia and a lot of Stalkers!