Henchman Hardcore crew discussion and tactica

[Matney X]

So, in about a month one of our local Henchmen will be running a Henchman Hardcore tournament (and a regular tournament, but that's not what this is about).  I'm super excited to try it out, but I've never played the format before.  (I do intend to get some Hardcore games in before the tournament, don't worry.)

There doesn't appear to be a general Henchman Hardcore thread (I did search), so that's what this is.

I'd like to talk about Crew lists, what has worked and what hasn't, and general tactics.

I know there are a few different variations of the Hardcore rules going around, but this will be about the most common:

 

Henchmen lead (you don't pay for your Leader)

20 SS

4 models -- no more, no less

 

Strategy is Turf War

Scheme is Assassinate.

 

So, what's your list?  Why did you take the models you took?  What's your plan?

[Matney X]

I'm throwing around two lists, right now.  One 10T, and one Arcanist.

10T

Open Spoiler

Leader - Kang

    -  The People's Challenge (2)

Thunder Archer (7)

Mr. Tannen (6) (I'm iffy on Tannen -- would another Rail Worker or Thunder Bro be better?)

Rail Worker (5)

 

My thoughts are Kang's bubble of awesome ( against Constructs and Undead, immunity to Horror duels) really wants him to lead a Melee crew, and he's good at it.  His 3" push will really help keep the Turf area clear, and his Taunt will keep models off of Mr. Tannen.  Also, if I'm lucky enough to get his version of Repost off, that's just more damage dealt.

 

The Thunder Archer is for some much-needed range, and he doesn't randomize when firing into melee, which is key to this crew.

 

Mr. Tannen is for more bubble shenanigans.  If I keep him in the fray, anyone fighting Kang or the Rail Worker will be discarding cards to cheat, or not cheating at all.  If I'm up against Arcanists, since this crew doesn't need Tomes, he can make a bubble that reduces Tomes by 2, and upping Masks -- that's risky, because only Tannen really needs Masks to begin with.  Finally, Bore to Tears can stop my opponent's Henchman from using stones.

 

Like I said, above, Tannen is iffy.

Finally, the Rail Worker is just tough, and if I keep him just ouside the Turf War area, he can Pin people there.

 

Arcanists:

Open Spoiler

Leader - Cassandra

- Smoke and Mirrors (1)

December Acolyte (7)

Performer (5)

Gunsmith (7)

This crew focuses more on VP denial than actually gaining VP.  It's also terrible for Melee.

 

 

Cassandra's just awesome, but she's not all that hardy.  She can get in and move and deal damage and pass out Burning.  Smoke and Mirrors can drop a scheme marker for the Performer's Seduction, but more importantly it can move her out of the fray.

 

The December Acolyte can hold the Turf marker immediate and take away Armor and Hard to Wound if he's in melee, but his main purpose is to pull people away from the Turf War.

 

The Performer can move people away from the Turf War, and pass out Poison.

 

And the Gunsmith is just awesome -- if I replace anyone, it'll be him, and it'll be to grab something that's better in melee.

 

Thoughts?

[Tuttleboy]

Each round will be 30 minutes long, so it's a bit of Speedfaux as well, and summoning of any kinds is not allowed. This would include hiring 2 Coryphee and using their Dance Together action to bring in a Duet and similar summons.  Any soulstones not spent are discarded, your SS pool will only be what's printed on the Henchman's card.  I'm debating about only allowing one of each model. I think it would cut out some horribly powerful crews such as Sybelle, 2x Belle, and Bête, but I'm not sure it's needed.

[Tuttleboy]

If I end up needing to play as a ringer I'm looking towards:

 

Ryle -- 3 Pool

 +Tessellating Magnet [1]

 

Guardian [8]

Pistolero De Latigo [5]

Warden [6]

 

 

Ryle is a beast and Pistolero and Guardain add to his survivability. Warden is just a solid construct. 1/2 of the crew is immune to horror duels and the other half is immune during their activation.  Tessellating Magnet is in just to burn up the soulstone I'd loose otherwise. If someone thinks there's a bitter usage for that SS, I'm open to suggestions.

[valhallan42nd]

My Hench crew:

Sybelle with Bleeding Tongue, Not Too Banged Up
Rotten Belle

Drowned

Jaakune Ubume with Unnerving Aura

J sits outside the Turf war area, and draws people to her. Drowned sends people her way. Belle pulls people J's way, and Sybelle kills people. It worked really well until I ran into a Widow Weaver/Insidious Madness/Insidious Madness/Coppelious crew. So much WP test. So sad was I.

[Stoupe]

I've got a fee lists right now going on...

Widow weaver w/ aether connection

Coppelius w/ Pact

Insideous Madness

Insideous Madness

Focus on horror duals and survival. Almost never gets assassinate off though. It's fun in turns 3-4 if you can make it.

Nekima

Killjoy

Taco

Pure damage in yo face. Killjoy is scary in this format.

Hannah

Strong arm Suit

Bishop

Same concept as nekima list with a big more utility. Beat faces. Strong arm suit usually tries to hold up models as bishop and hannah go in for the assasination. If I can't go for it, I can atleast give slow out.

Hannah + her specific upgrade, and the upgrade for fast.

Strong arm suit

Friekorps librarian

A little more utility. Less punchy.

This format is first and foremost about assassinate... either you go all out for it, or you go all out in preventing it.

Edit: sorry didn't see no less. Haven't seen that in ruleset locally.

[Wessex]

What are the rules for crew construction? Henchman costs 0, allowed one, and then 20ss on up to three more crew /upgrades?

[Matney X]

Also viable is

 

Joss

Howard Langston or a Rail Golem

2 Metal Gamin (or a Fire Gamin, if you can't double up on models).

[4thstringer]

I've been thinking through a build that focuses on pushing models out of the zone.  Right now that means mature neph and graves (maybe with nekima?), though I am considering a 2 warden 1 hunter build as well (with Ryle for his survivability/killiness as my hench),

[EntrepeNinja]

Cassandra and three silent ones. The silent ones have a good amount of healing for Cassandra, and some oblique healing for the other silent ones. They have CA actions that do gross damage, can trigger extra casts, blasts, or ice pillars, and don't randomize into melee.

Cassy can steal their cast with understudy, and can use even use it while in melee.

I had her: charge, attack, trigger understudy, cast, trigger overpower, cast again, attack again, trigger the push, then nimble into cover. So much damage and movement.

I also take smoke and mirrors for the push after attack. And she's got a high cache for cards or prevention. Hard to charge, easy to heal. Love this combo.

Barbaros, teddy, 2 terror tots

Use teddy and the tots to engage enemies, then use barbaros to challenge outside of melee- you can try to attack the models engaged with you, but you have a tn challenge check. Or you can try to engage barbaros but you have to break away from the guys engaging you, and barbaros can block, do damage, and push you back into engagement.

Sidir, abuela, frank(wade in), pistolero de Latigo

Abuela gives sidir family, hands out 1ap with her 0, and shoots the hell out of everything. Frank gives sidir elle mayor, and stabs everything, sidir can either shoot, or melee if he's got his resources to stay alive, and can also heal with a discard. The Latigo goes last to keep everyone on +flips to defense.

Alternatively you can go judge lead the same list and let the judge make frank do all the murder.

[Tuttleboy]

What are the rules for crew construction? Henchman costs 0, allowed one, and then 20ss on up to three more crew /upgrades?

Pretty much this, but the crew MUST have 4 members. No more, no less. Any SS not spent on construction are lost. The only SS pool is what is printed on the henchman's card.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Dashnel

2 guild rfilemen

Lone marshal

Top of my head ss might be off. Run 2 flanks and brutal range.

If no repeats warden in the stead of a rifleman.

[Kalkris]

I wanted to try out this 10T list not long ago, but ironically didn't have the time to:

 

Ama no Zako (leader)

Yin the Penangalan (8)

Mr. Tannen (6)

Torakage (6)

 

The main crux of this crew lies in using Tannen as a lynchpin (ha) to keep foes from winning all-too-many Horror Duels if any. Torakage snipes from elsewhere or is used for other distracting purposes, Yin does crazy Yin things, and Ama makes the board inhospitable for TW. I think that makes a lick of sense. Thoughts?

 

~Lil Kalki

[rythos42]

Last time I played this, 20 minutes per round, with a "cards down" at that point. There is no time for thinking, so if you take anything that requires any sort of complex mechanics, you're slow playing yourself and your opponent. 

 

Actually, I think the time limit is the worst part of the format. One game you play 3 turns, the next you play 4, and what you can get done in each game is entirely variable. If your either of you has to think at all, could be you get screwed (or screw someone) out of the all important 1 AP that turns the game your direction. Or their direction. Just to be fair.

[EntrepeNinja]

I agree! Completely! Seeing lists that sacrifice killing for additional duel roadblocks hurt my heart. I feel like the format should be two forces of death trying to out stab/shoot/slash each other. It might just be a conceptual/play style thing, but bringing a tricksy crew to a smashey party seems counter productive.

ENinja

[rythos42]

Reading on AWP, Mr. Marshall said that the frenetic pace is part of the fun. Which it absolutely is. And that's a great word. This isn't a thinking-mans game, this is rough and tumble Malifaux!

 

If someone could think of a good way to get that pace without ending up with variable turn length and numbers, I would be excited by such an idea.

[Matney X]

Last time I played this, 20 minutes per round, with a "cards down" at that point. There is no time for thinking, so if you take anything that requires any sort of complex mechanics, you're slow playing yourself and your opponent. 

 

Actually, I think the time limit is the worst part of the format. One game you play 3 turns, the next you play 4, and what you can get done in each game is entirely variable. If your either of you has to think at all, could be you get screwed (or screw someone) out of the all important 1 AP that turns the game your direction. Or their direction. Just to be fair.

 

That's a great point.  So, no Tannen?

[Mastershake]

Hungering Darkness

Nekima

Primordial Magic

Terror Tot

Some 1pt upgrade

Nothing but murder

[EntrepeNinja]

I think the answer is chess timer. Reward people who make plays faster. Or give each side a certain amount of time to make choices.  

 

Or, just stop thinking, and start measuring.

 

ENinja

[rgarbonzo]

Old Major, Sow, Warpig, Stuffed Piglet leaves 1 pt for Dirty Cheater on Major or you could drop the Sow and grab another Warpig...

[Hateful Darkblack]

Two other rules you'll sometimes find in Hardcore (and which I think should be there):

No extra Soulstones over Henchman cache.

No Summoning.

If Summoning is allowed, always take a Summoner Henchman. Mortimer, Toshiro, Spawn Mother, Widow Weaver, Nix, Rusty Alyce, etc. Summoning is disproportionately powerful at this scale.

If extra Soulstones are allowed, it's better to take a big high-cost Henchman and save leftover SS.

[Kadeton]

My favourite list for this format is:

Rusty Alyce (with Survivalist)

Freikorps Librarian

Johan

Ronin

Three models with Hard to Kill plus two models with healing (and to healing flips on Alyce) and one with Armor (and Alyce's Bulletproof) makes them really tough. All four have a discard for an extra attack (Rapid Fire, Flurry or Furious Casting), great damage and other bonuses (Alyce and Johan can get on damage, Ronin ignores Armor, Librarian ignores Incorporeal) which make them really dangerous. To cap it off, Alyce prevents charging, the Librarian removes enemy suits and Johan removes conditions. It's a pretty incredible package and easily won my last Hardcore format.

[The Godlyness]

Nekima fears given form

Killjoy

Alp

Alp.

Kill my own alp works just fine. Gets killjoy out. Kill joy then eats people. Sometimes if playing Arcanists might swap fears given form with retribution's eye on kill joy. Either way super killy not much thinking involved and hit like a truck.

[Hateful Darkblack]

Played this with great success today:

Rusty Alyce w/ Oath Keeper

Desolation Engine

Hodgepodge Effigy

Malifaux Rat

The rat is just there for a fourth model. And for Desolation Engine to eat for healing. Nom nom rat.

Rusty Alyce shoots the crap out of things, then burns Oath Keeper to scoot up and shoot the crap out of things.

Desolation Engine charges and crushes dudes. He can't bring in any Abominations if it's a no-Summon game, but he can pulse out area damage (or at least card drain) and cause mass trauma while healing himself up. Definitely a winner.

[Tuttleboy]

I just got done giving this crew a try and decided it needs a bit of a change.

Ryle -- 3 Pool

+Tessellating Magnet [1]

Guardian [8]

Pistolero De Latigo [5]

Warden [6]

The new version is:

Ryle -- 3 Pool

Guardian [8]

Hunter [7]

Brutal Effigy [4]

That leaves 1 SS for an upgrade and I honestly don't know what to spend it on.