Proxies and Conversions, how far is to far?

[Godgolden]

Hehehe,

 

Yeah the new Ryle art is a Bane wannabe, not very nice

 

Found the Warden disappointing too as i've never liked his design.

 

Conversely, all the other Guild construct looks amazing (especially the hunter and guardian.. and Mecha attendant)

 

Personally I see proxies/conversions as creative freedom, and I am all for freedom, except for Scotland, they are stuck with us now @_@

[rythos42]

I'm actually dreading the release of Kaeris' box set, for this reason. I love my Firestarter proxy and not being able to use her would make me sad.

[Tom Guo]

Good recognizable proxies: ok

Conversions: better

Conversions and nicely painted: best

 

Lady J to Lilith, not bad, as long as your opponent can recognize it.  Everyone has their own visions of the character.

DMarshals to tots … that’s a bit too much (unless you are theory crafting/play testing)

 

Malifaux is one of the least model intense miniature games comparing to other companies.  Price per model is very reasonable and buy extra copy shouldn’t be that bad (IMO, that’s my way of saying thank you to Wyrd for bring such a wonderful game)

 

If proxies is the only option for the player, I would rather see him/her using chess pieces on the table.  At least it is easier for me to recognize. 

[No Gods or Kings. Only Man]

I am still building my Leveticus crew, but all my models are decided for now. It's fully Bioshock themed, and I don't have a single Wyrd model in that team.

 

I have the following:
1x Big Daddy (Construct)

1x Big Daddy with Gun (Lazarus)

1x impeccably dressed Andrew Ryan with golf club (Leveticus)

1x Doctor Suchong (Rusty Alice)

3x Splicers made from zombie models (Waifs)

9x Suchong's experiments which are the drudge models from Hordes (Abominations)

 

They are all proxies. Would you play me?

[Requirement]

I am still building my Leveticus crew, but all my models are decided for now. It's fully Bioshock themed, and I don't have a single Wyrd model in that team.

 

I have the following:

1x Big Daddy (Construct)

1x Big Daddy with Gun (Lazarus)

1x impeccably dressed Andrew Ryan with golf club (Leveticus)

1x Doctor Suchong (Rusty Alice)

3x Splicers made from zombie models (Waifs)

9x Suchong's experiments which are the drudge models from Hordes (Abominations)

 

They are all proxies. Would you play me?

 

Under no circumstances would I play someone who has an entire crew made up of non-wyrd miniatures. I understand using proxies while testing a new model before purchase or temporarily while waiting for funding to purchase or because the model hasn't been released yet. I don't think it's appropriate to expect anyone to play you if you show up with a list of models from other companies and tell me that "Yeah, this Andrew Ryan is totally Leveticus." Fun idea, yeah (I even quite like the Big Daddy/Lazarus thing) but not fair to your opponent or to Wyrd.

[AverageBoss]

I am not a fan of guts and gore. As such I use the old metal Lawyer on one of the Zen bases for my Lost Love. You can see him in this thread: http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/102637-animu-kirai-and-other-works/#entry750670

 

This is the model I use for Toshiro

 

 

And this is my Yin:

 

 

Everything else I own (which is every Ten Thunders model in print, every metal spirit, new and old Kirai Crews, new Lucious, and several odds and ends like Executioners, Riflemen, and a Doppelganger), are unconverted (except my metal Kirai from whom I removed the severed head and replaced it with a bonsai tree), unproxied Wyrd minis.

 

No one locally has a problem. What say you gentlemen?

[No Gods or Kings. Only Man]

not fair to your opponent

I can sort of see what you mean. If it's too hard for them to make the connection between my model and the original model, it might confuse him/her.

 

 or to Wyrd.

Hah, hardly. The fact that I was able to make this crew and make it fit into the aesthetic of Malifaux is the reason I even play malifaux in the first place. If it hadn't been for this crew, I would never have played Malifaux, and thus never given a single dollar to Wyrd. As it is, I've bought several fate decks, several decks of character cards, The rule book and the crossroads book, as well as a Perdita gang and some other small odds and ends.

 

Not to mention I brought a friend into the game that would have never noticed it otherwise, and he's getting into the Gremlins.

 

You're way too short-sighted if you think making a crew that isn't their models means I am robbing Wyrd of money.

[Requirement]

Hah, hardly. The fact that I was able to make this crew and make it fit into the aesthetic of Malifaux is the reason I even play malifaux in the first place. If it hadn't been for this crew, I would never have played Malifaux, and thus never given a single dollar to Wyrd. As it is, I've bought several fate decks, several decks of character cards, The rule book and the crossroads book, as well as a Perdita gang and some other small odds and ends.

 

Not to mention I brought a friend into the game that would have never noticed it otherwise, and he's getting into the Gremlins.

 

You're way too short-sighted if you think making a crew that isn't their models means I am robbing Wyrd of money.

Maybe I am being too short-sighted. The few conversion/proxy heavy individuals I know haven't actually given wyrd any money. They wanted to play for free (which, dudes, I will totally let you play with my models to try them out. You just have to purchase something from wyrd). I am pretty lax with proxies most of the time and understand many of the arguments for their use (unreleased is the big one right now.) And at the end of the day, we choose who to play with anyway.

[necroon]

 

No one locally has a problem. What say you gentlemen?

If nobody locally cares I say you should use whatever proxies you want and whatever makes you happy. +1 to the Rule of Cool over here. 

 

I try, at the recommendation of my Local Henchmen, to carry the Wyrd official model with me for tournaments so if my opponent might be confused I can just plop the real one down and they don't have to worry about being confuzzled. 

[Pierowmaniac]

I have no problem with proxies, when their is an obvious theme or viable stand in's

[NIGHTHATER]

I'm actually dreading the release of Kaeris' box set, for this reason. I love my Firestarter proxy and not being able to use her would make me sad.

 

Use your proxy anyway, although Kaeris metal model is pretty rad.

 

 

Malifaux is one of the least model intense miniature games comparing to other companies.  Price per model is very reasonable and buy extra copy shouldn’t be that bad (IMO, that’s my way of saying thank you to Wyrd for bring such a wonderful game)

 

If proxies is the only option for the player, I would rather see him/her using chess pieces on the table.  At least it is easier for me to recognize. 

 

First sentence I'm agree with and I respect Wyrd for making a pretty cheap miniature game as well. I would be even happier if they didn't M2E, but can't win em all I guess.

 

Second sentence is a bad joke right? Chess pieces make a good stand in for ah....nothing.

 

 

I am still building my Leveticus crew, but all my models are decided for now. It's fully Bioshock themed, and I don't have a single Wyrd model in that team.

 

I have the following:

1x Big Daddy (Construct)

1x Big Daddy with Gun (Lazarus)

1x impeccably dressed Andrew Ryan with golf club (Leveticus)

1x Doctor Suchong (Rusty Alice)

3x Splicers made from zombie models (Waifs)

9x Suchong's experiments which are the drudge models from Hordes (Abominations)

 

They are all proxies. Would you play me?

 

Yes just give me a list of whats what and make sure they have the same base size I guess. It's still kinds wild.

 

******Average Boss********

 

I'd play you I have proxies as well, and those are pretty cool models.

 

*******No Gods and Requirement********

 

I don't feel bad for Wyrd, they have gotten a ton of my money. I respect the fact you support the company. Using proxies doesn't automatically mean you don't own the original. I don't have 1 proxy...not one that I don't have the 1.5 model for.

 

Nighthater

 

To think all you great guys with such good input could help me with this topic . I shocked people love the proxy topic the way they do cools.

 

http://wyrd-games.net/community/topic/103168-support-your-local-working-girls/

[Gozu]

Normally I'm totally with proxies. HOWEVER the other day at a tournament (admittedly a fairly casual one) my opponent was using a Gun smith as Johan. Without the card. Now not only did this mean he took a fair while longer as he checked the book (which due to space couldn't be nearby) he also marked poison and damage wrong.

That coupled with the fact I was using Dr Doug meant that "Johan" kinda tore apart my game plan a fair bit.

I found that frustrating but being a shy dude I didn't really want to argue.

[Math Mathonwy]

I am still building my Leveticus crew, but all my models are decided for now. It's fully Bioshock themed, and I don't have a single Wyrd model in that team.

That is a very cool theme, your crew looks amazing, and the proxies are sensible and easy to remember. Especially as you aren't taking advantage of Levi's gigantic hiring pool which might make things difficult in the long run but limiting to the core Levi crew I think that the possiblity of proxying affecting the game (through your opponent misremembering what is what) is very remote.

 

I am not a fan of guts and gore.

I think that is a very good reason to proxy some of the more grisly minis and that's a very low amount of proxies that are nicely chosen. The Lawyer is the only one I feel is a bit strange but there really isn't a chance that it would be mistaken for something else in the crew, so no problem there, either.

[Wessex]

Casually, I don't see any issue with proxies. But you can't really expect to go to a competitive event with non-Wyrd models and be allowed to play them. If there is no official M2E/1st edition figure manufactured by Wyrd then I think the TO's discretion and authorisation, acquired prior to attending the event, is a great solution until the product is released.

As for conversions: Wyrd have a policy on it (as far as I'm aware you're only allowed to use 33% of another manufacturer's pieces as components, I can't remember off of the top of my head the exact figure). As long as it clear and doesn't obfuscate the piece for your opponent, it should be fair game. Again, the TO has the final say as it's their event.

Regarding summoning: I wouldn't play Ramos without access to some surplus of Steam Arachnids/Swarms and two Electric Creations. Obviously if I somehow reach a board state with 15 Arachnids I might have to proxy, but that's the rare exception where everything has fated my way and not the norm, and most opponents at a competitive level should be ok with that. I'd have thought similar rules apply for Nicodem and any other figure that is capable of summoning.

[Omenbringer]

I seem to recall that Puppetwars models have also been deemed as "official" stand ins for Malifaux.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Agreed with Bengt from the last page.

Actual/permanent proxies should be easily recognizable (some combination of based on the same model, based on a similar model, with the right gear, similar size, etc.). Stuff where someone could point and say "this represents X" and it would be pretty natural: "this slim guy with a face covering and a weird weapon is the Judge," for instance.

For testing/temp games trying stuff out or a model hasn't come out, fine with whatever is reasonably close: "this SM terminator is a strongarm suit,"

For super-temp stuff like summons, anything that doesn't get confusing, as in not "this pirate is a punk zombie, and this pirate is a Hanged"

I generally prefer minis from other factions or lines, though, so I'm more likely to go "huh?" when I see a weird model, than "well, glad that punk zombie is out of range... wait- that's a belle?"

[NIGHTHATER]

Normally I'm totally with proxies. HOWEVER the other day at a tournament (admittedly a fairly casual one) my opponent was using a Gun smith as Johan. Without the card. Now not only did this mean he took a fair while longer as he checked the book (which due to space couldn't be nearby) he also marked poison and damage wrong.

That coupled with the fact I was using Dr Doug meant that "Johan" kinda tore apart my game plan a fair bit.

I found that frustrating but being a shy dude I didn't really want to argue.

 

Gozu,

 

I hear you, but your stacking other problems onto the fact your opponent was using a bad proxy. Even if your opponent had used a great proxy there would have been issues. Also not having a copy of the character card...or even a bad proxy of it's kinda sketchy. I don't know where I'm at with that.

 

Nighthater

[Ratty]

I can remember a game where I was playing as Seamus. Due to lucky card draws, and positioning none of my Belles died and by the end of the game I had summoned another 6 of them. Strangely I don't have 9 Belles in my collection, so Kirai, Molly, and every other female Rezer I had came out. Sometimes things like this can't be expected, so I do feel some leeway is acceptable. Where I would be more Leary would be summoning a Shikome when you have 0 in your collection.

[Dustcrusher]

My unnecessary contribution:

 

Official tournaments: Wyrd's party, Wyrd's rules. I'd like to see them up the non-Wyrd levels allowed to 50%, but ultimately it's their call.

 

Leagues and unofficial tournaments with prize support: The ultimate goal of both of these is to get more people playing and to generate sales, so I think players should have as much official as possible, with reasonable approximations of minis not available for purchase at a LGS (made from Wyrd pieces if possible). Don't sweat an occasional proxy if it's temporary.

 

Friendly games and unofficial social tournaments: Rule of Fun applies here. NGOK,OM's Rapture-themed crew sounds bitchin' and I'd gladly play against them. I've used Dark Age Dragyri Hailkin as Ice Gamin before, and Mantic Zombies as Mindless Zombies- as long as the base sizes are right and it's clear what is what, I'm good (Rule of Fun applies to all players involved, and terrible proxying ruins my fun as much as a good proxy crew can enhance it).

 

I don't mind someone temporarily proxying a crew with whatever's on hand (base sizes notwithstanding) to test a crew for a game or two, or in extenuating circumstances (like the one Ratty mentioned). After that, they should either buy the official minis or use thematic stand-ins (like the Rapture crew above). In any case, the rules and Arsenal Boxes should be purchased, and ideally the stand-ins would be bought from the LGS too.

 

I have my limits, though. If someone can't set up a good set of proxies, I'd prefer to lend them one of my crews. None of this "these Space Marine legs are Abominations, and this Eldar jetbike is a Desolation Engine" stuff.

[NIGHTHATER]

I can remember a game where I was playing as Seamus. Due to lucky card draws, and positioning none of my Belles died and by the end of the game I had summoned another 6 of them. Strangely I don't have 9 Belles in my collection, so Kirai, Molly, and every other female Rezer I had came out. Sometimes things like this can't be expected, so I do feel some leeway is acceptable. Where I would be more Leary would be summoning a Shikome when you have 0 in your collection.

 

Ratty,

 

Ya I'm with you as I have Seamus crew myself. If I have the 3 Wyrd models out (the belles) it's like well I'm not buying the same exact models and painting them again so I can summon extra models of the same type...SCREW THAT. I also have the 2 Dead Doxies so after 5 belles are out it's proxy time and "Dam the Man" if need be. I think you should have to have the card or a bad proxy of it to be able to use a model. Though I still only Malifaux 1.5 so I don't need to worry about the tournament rules I guess.

 

My unnecessary contribution:

 

Official tournaments: Wyrd's party, Wyrd's rules. I'd like to see them up the non-Wyrd levels allowed to 50%, but ultimately it's their call.

 

Leagues and unofficial tournaments with prize support: The ultimate goal of both of these is to get more people playing and to generate sales, so I think players should have as much official as possible, with reasonable approximations of minis not available for purchase at a LGS (made from Wyrd pieces if possible). Don't sweat an occasional proxy if it's temporary.

 

Friendly games and unofficial social tournaments: Rule of Fun applies here. NGOK,OM's Rapture-themed crew sounds bitchin' and I'd gladly play against them. I've used Dark Age Dragyri Hailkin as Ice Gamin before, and Mantic Zombies as Mindless Zombies- as long as the base sizes are right and it's clear what is what, I'm good (Rule of Fun applies to all players involved, and terrible proxying ruins my fun as much as a good proxy crew can enhance it).

 

I don't mind someone temporarily proxying a crew with whatever's on hand (base sizes notwithstanding) to test a crew for a game or two, or in extenuating circumstances (like the one Ratty mentioned). After that, they should either buy the official minis or use thematic stand-ins (like the Rapture crew above). In any case, the rules and Arsenal Boxes should be purchased, and ideally the stand-ins would be bought from the LGS too.

 

I have my limits, though. If someone can't set up a good set of proxies, I'd prefer to lend them one of my crews. None of this "these Space Marine legs are Abominations, and this Eldar jetbike is a Desolation Engine" stuff.

 

Lord of Dust,

 

I think you got some good points, although everything you said can be debated either way. I like the fact you support your local gaming stores...that's pretty cool. Where your going to have to go to war is your "good and bad proxies comment". Almost everyone thinks their proxy is awesome or good enough, or they wouldn't be using it. The base size being right should be a must though.

 

 

 

Personally I think if you own all the OFFICIAL WYRD models sculpts for a crew for the edition you are playing 1.5/2.0 (like the 3 belles) at that point it should be LEGAL to use any proxy deemed to be of a similar nature and reasonably recognizable as a belle.  As long as the base size is good and your opponent knows what it is. That being said in a game as cool as Malifaux (1.5 anyway) where characters usually are not just cannon fodder it's kinda cool to give each model it's own unique feel even if they are the same 3 Belles, or Death Marshals, or Witchling Stalkers....ETC. You need proxies to do this. I also HATE, HATE, HATE, painting the same sculpt models over and over.

 

Nighthater

[G. Footman]

I can remember a game where I was playing as Seamus. Due to lucky card draws, and positioning none of my Belles died and by the end of the game I had summoned another 6 of them. Strangely I don't have 9 Belles in my collection, so Kirai, Molly, and every other female Rezer I had came out. Sometimes things like this can't be expected, so I do feel some leeway is acceptable. Where I would be more Leary would be summoning a Shikome when you have 0 in your collection.

 

 

yeah, i ended up with the original metal belles, a reaper mini converted to a belle (it's a girl, in short frilly clothing, who looks decayed, a good alt in my book), and the new plastic belles.  I havent bothered getting the redchapel box because, aside from not liking the johnnydepp'smaddhatter look for the plastic seamus, I don't think I'm ever going to have that many belles on the table at once.

 

 

but I have been wrong before, I have reaper bones zombies on bases, zombies taken from the old Mageknight line, as well as wyrd zombies, just because I  already am painting the same identicle zombie 18 times for zombicide. 

 

as far as the general proxy/conversion thing.  I've played warhammer and warhammer 40k for years before hand, and (especially with GW prices going up) have seen plenty of alt minis, scratch builds, and conversions, as well as own pleny of alts, scratchbuilds and conversions.  When we referred to proxies, it was usually a nailbox used for a drop pod, or coasters used as tyranids.  Malifaux is honestly the first time I ever heard of alternative minis from another line, scratchbuilds, or conversions referred to as proxies in the same vein as pennies or a sodacan thunderbird, and early on it seemed like they were looked down on.

 

Honestly, if you put some actual work into it (no blank bases or unpainted SM legs), it's recognizable for what it is (with some leeway for similar minions like belles/doxies), and on the right base, I'll play your crew with no problems. 

 

I have some proxies/conversions, mostly either because I own the original and wanted a second one that did not look identicle, the mini was not available yet, or I flat out did not like the look of the official model (most of them are good, there's a couple i'm not a fan of).

Aside from the zombies, I have a 2nd, scratchbuild flesh construct maybe 85% greenstuff, 2 seishen made from greenstuff, scratchbuilt brass arachnid, electrical construct made from an old o.g.r.e. tank (taken off my brother's hands, he didn't like the tentacle ball look of the official one and I agree)  large arachnid made from a combination greenstuff and random sprue bits,  a december acolyte converted from a mageknight mini and joining my other 3 plastic wyrd ones on occasion.  and am working on a custom rail golem, because while I like the legs and head of the offisial model, the arms don't look mechanicle enough to me and just look cartoony.

 

I have bought by now, maybe a few hundred dollars worth of wyrd minis, so I'm not doing this to avoid paying for minis, it comes down more to personal tastes.  I like seeing other people's creativity as well with their crews, and wouldnt want to see that go away completely.  I'd like to see wyrd actually put out a line of just bits to use for conversions, heads, arms, bodies, and like the hats and weapons they put out before , hopefully we might get that with the through the breach minis.

 

and I will always go by what my signature says, it's not proxies unless I'm using pennies to count as zombies.

[nogoatsnoglory]

How about this situation.

 

I have the 1.5 Brass Arachnid, mainly because I purchased it on accident when I first started out.  After I put together my Ramos crew, I liked the Metal version much more than my plastic version.  I don't want to have a model go completely to waste, so I put the plastic BA on a larger base and use it as a Large Arachnid.

 

So the metal BA is a BA and the plastic BA is a LA.

 

I also use Hans as a Gunsmith, mainly because I just find the new model so damn cool.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Large Arachnid is fine in my book 9esp. since it's huge), hans as a gunsmith would be fine in the short term but I don't think he fits that well in the long run since the gear isn't the same so not immediately recognizable.

[ArcticPangolin]

Totally hear you on not wanting to paint the same models over and over. I got the metal Witchling Stalkers to go with the plastic crew for pose variety (same for Guild Guard when I get around to getting a Lucius box, although I'll miss out on the metal female guard) just in case I need to summon more. I remember in 1st ed some Resser players in my group had two metal Mindless Zombie and/or Rotten Belle sets, but it just looked like the same people in different colour outfits. Other zombies proxied in as substitutes or additions was just so much better looking. For this reason alone I wish metal versions (or their sculpts in plastic) of certain Minions were available for pose variety.

 

I'm pretty lazy at finding the time to model and paint as I'd rather be playing games and definitely feel like I push the boundaries of politeness when proxying ("I still haven't put him together so Papa Loco's the Brutal Effigy again") but try to make it as minimal as possible, so either limiting it to one or two models or just waiting until it's at least assembled. That said there's no way that I'd try that at a tournament; it's official, totally believable, themey as all hell or bust for my own standard.

 

I really don't care if you're proxying in a casual game. I still remember facing Rathnard's Marcus-led My Little Pony Silurids of all types. It was great.

[NIGHTHATER]

 

I also use Hans as a Gunsmith, mainly because I just find the new model so damn cool.

 

Nogoatsnoglory,

 

Hans has a massive sniper rifle so using him as someone without a long range rifle and with 2 handguns is going a lot off track.  Maybe very short term, but there are a ton of cool figures made by countless companies that have 2 handguns. I have the female metal version of the gunsmith and shes awesome. The metal male has stupid looking guns so when I get him its conversion time...sigh. It's the lowest of priorities though since I have a few 2 revolver gunslingers from other companies painted and based.

 

 

Large Arachnid is fine in my book 9esp. since it's huge), hans as a gunsmith would be fine in the short term but I don't think he fits that well in the long run since the gear isn't the same so not immediately recognizable.

SpiralingCadaver,

 

Yep

 

 

Totally hear you on not wanting to paint the same models over and over. I got the metal Witchling Stalkers to go with the plastic crew for pose variety (same for Guild Guard when I get around to getting a Lucius box, although I'll miss out on the metal female guard) just in case I need to summon more. I remember in 1st ed some Resser players in my group had two metal Mindless Zombie and/or Rotten Belle sets, but it just looked like the same people in different colour outfits. Other zombies proxied in as substitutes or additions was just so much better looking. For this reason alone I wish metal versions (or their sculpts in plastic) of certain Minions were available for pose variety.

 

I'm pretty lazy at finding the time to model and paint as I'd rather be playing games and definitely feel like I push the boundaries of politeness when proxying ("I still haven't put him together so Papa Loco's the Brutal Effigy again") but try to make it as minimal as possible, so either limiting it to one or two models or just waiting until it's at least assembled. That said there's no way that I'd try that at a tournament; it's official, totally believable, themey as all hell or bust for my own standard.

 

I really don't care if you're proxying in a casual game. I still remember facing Rathnard's Marcus-led My Little Pony Silurids of all types. It was great.

 

ArcticPangolin,

 

I'm pushing the limits as well for these reasons.

 

* I don't drive a battle foam van around to carry all my different crews in. I now have far more figures then I can carry in my Malifaux official bag. I bring a full Malifaux bag and proxy if I have to.

 

* I'm not painting the same figure over and over again (I'm sucking it up for Ramos spiders though ) they look lame on the table with duplicates.

 

* Some of Wyrds figures are so lame looking (yes personal opinion) or are far to fragile to use. I have to put countless hours converting them or just use stronger proxies.

 

Anyway just where I'm at.....

 

Nighthater