Sidir and By Your Side

[zFiend]

So, I just want to clarify this, not that I doubt that it isn't so, just want to make 100% sure as it was pretty ridiculous.. 

 

Sidir has the upgrade By Your Side, you Charge a model and Sidir jumps in, now Sidir gets placed in base contact with the target say the model is on a 50mm base, is Ht 3 and the model targeting it has 1-2" Ml range and is Ht 2, now the Charge itself completes but the two attacks, can not be completed as the model doesn't have a LoS or Range to Sidir. 

 

"By Your Side: Once per turn, when a friendly model 

within 5" and LoS of this model is targeted by an 

enemy model's Action, this model may be placed 

in base contact with the friendly model. This model 

is now the target of the Action, regardless of range 

or LoS"

 

Another neat trick that came up at the same time while arguing about this is to jump Sidir in and grab a Message that was meant for Deliver a Message. 

 

Does it really work this way? I was stomped to hear this

[Thaarup]

 

... now the Charge itself completes but the two attacks, can not be completed as the model doesn't have a LoS or Range to Sidir. 

 

"By Your Side: .. This model 

is now the target of the Action, regardless of range 

or LoS"

 

 

Unless I missed something, You kind of answered your own question?

[zFiend]

Not sure am I missing something now or did I expain it wrong. Most likely so.

 

But yeah you can complete the Charge part of the Action, regardless of Los and Range, but not the two attacks the Charge manifests. As when you get to that part, you don't have LoS and Range anymore. 

[hypoking]

Actually, I'm not sure you would get as far as the movement. Sidir can intercept the charge on the original target, which can be an make the charge impossible, which hits up against the 'this model must end the move with the target model within its engagement range or this action may not be taken' clause. Illegal charges just don't exist in mk2. Being able to complete the charge successfully is a prerequisite for resolving the ability in the first place.

[DocSchlock]

It says "regardless of range or LOS," so the charge move wouldn't care about ending within range. The Charge succeeds, just the Close Attacks fail.

EDIT: Would range cover engagement range?

[Carse]

Ignoring range in this case should be the range listed in the ability, which charge doesn't have a range so it doesn't really apply here. So you would igonre your checks of range and los, but if you can't get in close enough to hit the charge would fail and not be allowed. At least that's how I understand it.

[ArcticPangolin]

I've always played it that Sidir is still hit by the attacks generated by the Charge. I don't have my book with me for the wording on Charges though, but since Sidir is now the target of the charge, and the Charge generates the attacks, I think he'd still get whacked.

 

The Deliver a Message blocking is pretty nifty!

[hypoking]

Is a good one for the faq, book doesn't seem to cover how this should be resolved.

[MasterDisaster]

I've always played it that Sidir is still hit by the attacks generated by the Charge. I don't have my book with me for the wording on Charges though, but since Sidir is now the target of the charge, and the Charge generates the attacks, I think he'd still get whacked.

 

The Deliver a Message blocking is pretty nifty!

 

This is pretty much how I've always done it as well. It's fairly cut and dry based on the wording of By Your Side. As far as I can tell Sidir would just become the target of the charge action. I guess with careful positioning if you were out of the charging models range you could deny them the attacks but then this raises the question of would the model actually charge? If Sidir became the target and the model couldn't complete a successful charge would they even complete the action?

[Ausplosions]

Yes.

Because it ignores LoS and range.

It says it in the ability.

The charge DEFINITELY happens. The debate is if the two strikes afterward happen.

[Adran]

There is no need for a debate on the 2 strikes from the charge. They have to follow normal targetting rules as they are a different action from the charge.

 

I would have thought it wouldn't come up all that often, its not that easy to be completly hidden from a charge, but it is possible.

[zFiend]

I've always played it that Sidir is still hit by the attacks generated by the Charge. I don't have my book with me for the wording on Charges though, but since Sidir is now the target of the charge, and the Charge generates the attacks, I think he'd still get whacked.

 

The Deliver a Message blocking is pretty nifty!

 

Yeah that's how I thought it would go, but after reading the card there's not much to say against it, the strikes can't be done in such a case.

 

But now I am a bit confused about the whole illegal charge thing? Would you then draw the charge line towards Sidir and not the original target? 

[egoon]

As the charge now ignores range and LoS, it should be able to move in any direction, as long as it is in a straight line. 

If you then end up in range and LoS of Sidir, you get to hit him twice.

 

Or am I overthinking this?

 

Sidir moves at declare an action step, so the charging model has not yet moved, right?

[zFiend]

Yeah that's how I understood it as well. So the Charge move itself goes through but the attacks don't. 

[Therril_83]

I think that the charge would go through, but as Egoon says, the enemy model has not yet moved, so if it can be moved in such a way that it still is within reach of Sidir after the move, then the attacks would go through. But if it can't be moved in such a way, then the attacks are lost.

[zFiend]

It is quite a powerful ability in the right situation. Taken that it can basically waste two attacks as well as mess up schemes. 

[hypoking]

Ok, think about it like this. Model A declares a charge against model B which is on the extreme edge of its charge range. Sidir steps in at this point and makes himself the target of the charge, places himself behind model B and outside of model A's charge range. As Sadir is now the target of the charge model A needs to end the charge with him in punching range in order to meet the requirements for charging in the first place. By Your Side ignores los and range but it doesn't rewrite the targeting model's cg stat and it won't give him the mobility necessary to end where it needs to in order to complete a successful charge in the first place.

[Bengt]

The definition of a successful charge is "...with the target model within its engagement range...", my emphasis. So one could argue that By Your Side removes that particular instance of "range", meaning you can move your Cg in whatever direction you want as long as you go in a straight line, and it will still be a successful charge action even though you might now be approximately twice your Cg from the target.

[hypoking]

To clarify, you're arguing a Sidir deflected charge could move a model its charge in any direction?

 

By Your Side bypasses range and los on the initial targeting action. Engagement range is a passive statistic on the attacking model, unrelated to the charge action. The charge action itself has no range. It has the fairly convoluted stipulation that all charges must end in punching distance, but that's not the same thing and nothing is served by saying it is.

[Dirial]

Wow, this is complicated. I kind of agree with Hypoking, but if Bengt's interpretation is incorrect, what happens? Does the model move, or does it not? There is no failed charge in Malifaux, and you cannot move the model to a legal position (in engagement range).

[The Godlyness]

So what we have here is a Failure to communicate.

 

Either the model does not move and the charge action fails ( which is impossible since the action could not be taken in the first place)

 

or the model moves. Question is which way. 

 

Personally i think it should be towards Sidir and call it good enough not make any attacks since the models are not engaged.  But it is also Equally viable to move the *charging* model in any direction you want since you ignore los and range so the action is complete.

 

Or the Sidir player can not be penguin and just fufill the spirt of the rule of taking it on the chin. solves this problem. But with out a doubt this needs a faq.

[Bengt]

To clarify, you're arguing a Sidir deflected charge could move a model its charge in any direction?

 

By Your Side bypasses range and los on the initial targeting action. Engagement range is a passive statistic on the attacking model, unrelated to the charge action. The charge action itself has no range. It has the fairly convoluted stipulation that all charges must end in punching distance, but that's not the same thing and nothing is served by saying it is.

Oh, I don't think it's very clear. Engagement range is the only range mentioned on p39 in the charge paragraph, and it feels a bit like shoe horning to equate that range to By Your Side's range, but it wouldn't be the first time a ruling is a little forced.

 

I do think that if you end up moving the model, you are free to move it where ever since a normal charge has no stipulation of going in any particular direction, only that you end up in engagement range.

[Myyrä]

I'd like to point out that AP is spent when an action is declared. After that you take duels, if action requires one. After that you resolve the action.

 

Charge can't be taken if you can't move the model the way that the target is within charging model's engagement range. Thus you are unable to resolve the action even though you already spent the AP.

 

Sidir's By Your Side allows you to ignore range (which charge action doesn't have) and LOS for the charge action. It doesn't affect the range or LOS requirements of any other actions the charging model might have.

[Bengt]

Sidir's By Your Side allows you to ignore range (which charge action doesn't have) and LOS for the charge action. It doesn't affect the range or LOS requirements of any other actions the charging model might have.

If we can be sure that range only ever refers to the Rg in an action header, i.e. the bold bit in "(1) Spit Magma(Sh5  / Rst: Df/ Rg:  10)", then yeah Charge doesn't have one and you end up twiddling your thumbs while Sidir does a little dance. But can we be sure of that? It does feel a little neater than the charger running of somewhere else.

[Myyrä]

If we can be sure that range only ever refers to the Rg in an action header, i.e. the bold bit in "(1) Spit Magma(Sh5  / Rst: Df/ Rg:  10)", then yeah Charge doesn't have one and you end up twiddling your thumbs while Sidir does a little dance. But can we be sure of that? It does feel a little neater than the charger running of somewhere else.

I would say it's safer to assume that an action doesn't have range if it isn't mentioned anywhere that it has one.

 

Edit: By Your Side only removes targeting restrictions for the action. It doesn't affect it's execution in any way apart from changing the target.