Jakob errata and Final Debt

[DeleteAccount]

OK, now that Jakob's Final Debt is true to it's name and only once per turn. Will it change people's Jakob configuration or will they still default into Woke up With a Hand? I'm personally happy that now there is actually some choice involved now, though it's still a very powerful upgrade.

[Sevorin]

 Still gonna take woke up with a hand. Those 2 cards are worth it. Coupled with his (0), its great card advantage.

[M_Ruckuss]

Still gonna take woke up with a hand. Those 2 cards are worth it. Coupled with his (0), its great card advantage.

+1. Was great before, still very good and in keeping with his theme now- 2 extra cards per turn is just brilliant when combined with mulligan...!

Just means some of his other offensive abilities will now see som use....!

[DeleteAccount]

I'll go and break away for a while from Woke up with a Hand, want to use Lynch more as an early turn hand cleaner with Mulligan instead of late turn and have him set up brilliance for other models to get more power out of illuminated for example. Basically use him as the support I imagined he was more supposed to be. Also, I want to play around with Wanna see a Trick XD

[EnternalVoid]

I rarely used Woke up with a Hand before so it will not change me much.  When ever I took it I found myself having to activate Lynch midway in the turn anyhow.

[rancor709]

2 Cards a turn over 5 turns for with access to a hand sized based attack on a master built to control hand size even once a turn is a nice trade for having Lynch go last. But I do personally prefer a more open play style that lets me activate when ever I want without wasting my upgrade slot by not activating last. Again I think theres choice now but its still a very viable upgrade spot on errata

[clockworkspide]

I have mixed feelings on Woke Up With a Hand, mostly because I'm still trying to figure out use of Brilliance, and Jakob's my best method of handing it out, which means he needs to go early- or mid-turn.

[Lucidicide]

Jakob is my favorite Master in M2E, and I've played him a lot. This change doesn't concern me in the least. It means I'm less likely to take someone from 12+ wounds to 0 in 2 AP, but I think that's probably OK.

[zFiend]

I'll go and break away for a while from Woke up with a Hand, want to use Lynch more as an early turn hand cleaner with Mulligan instead of late turn and have him set up brilliance for other models to get more power out of illuminated for example. Basically use him as the support I imagined he was more supposed to be. Also, I want to play around with Wanna see a Trick XD

 

This actually sounds great, I have to try this as well!

[sparowl]

Two thoughts -

 

1.) Woke up with a Hand is still very good. Final Debt can still be a killer, especially if he is activating last against models that have had Brillance applied by earlier activations. There has also been a lot of my activations with Mr. Lynch that are - Walk, Play for Blood, Final Debt. Play for Blood into Final Debt is pretty solid for damage.

 

2.) I find that Mulligan is still good on the last activation, so long as you have at least 2-3 bad cards. Here's why - you are setting up your hand for next turn. The two cards from Woke Up, combined with Mulligan, make for a solid set for the following turn. Either you end up with a decent starting hand to draw into, or you can discard a lot of bad, thinning out your deck.

 

I'm not saying that Woke Up means that Lynch should absolutely, 100% always activate last. The last game I played, I activated him last on bottom of two, then won initiative and activated him first on top of three, just so I could kill off Lord Chompy Bits.

 

But the extra two cards is very powerful, and Final Debt is still an amazing killer.

 

Does anyone feel like the choice of upgrades for Hungering Darkness effects how much you use Woke Up? For instance, I like Endless Hunger, but I could see how Rising Sun would work well with the ability to one shot an enemy model after giving them Brillance. Thoughts?

[DeleteAccount]

Oh don't get me wrong, it is still a very powerful upgrade, but not being able to pump more than 8 damage (supposing you hoareded all your cards and never cheated once in the turn) is a pretty big change to how it operated before.

 

I just want to embark on the happiness of blowing my hand with abandon while letting Jakob do his job of spreading brilliance and creating hand when needed.

[Tiny]

Yeh Taking addict, whichever sluggy limited and expert cheater is a much more interesting way to play him IMO, rather than just deleting 1-2 models a turn.

[DeleteAccount]

And lets not forget the gun being pretty nasty when rams are on hand.

[r4st4f4n]

3 of those full potential attacks in one activation were definitively nasty. 2 of them, more or less like a Sonnia Ca9 Sunburst - Severe(When you have the Burning Condition, and Wp6, that's absolutely D: ).

Don't know, I feel both bit more happy to have it more balanced, and bit less happy when fighting to fill Upgrades slots.
That's odd, cause I never used it more than once per turn anyways (but that may be me playing too frequently against Condition removing Crews...)
A You are Mine Trigger, in exchange, would have been really appreciated xD

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I think they should have capped it at 4 or 5 damage and left it alone.

[DeleteAccount]

I think they should have capped it at 4 or 5 damage and left it alone.

No

 

Jakob is a support master that gets a practically free facebeater henchman and that upgrade completely broke his dynamic by making him a massive damage dealer. Capping it at damage 4 would have just meant 8 quick damage on anything without much answer, again, from a Ca of 7 with a range of 10 and from a model that has no bussiness being a destroyer. Now it's what it should always have been, an "Oh shit" button.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I'm sensing that maybe you disagree lol

[Bodiless]

I'm curious if people know where the push for this change came from. I've seen a lot of discussion about Mechanical Rider, Decaying Aura, etc. and how they needed to be toned down. But this one seems to have come without a lot of warning. 

[DeleteAccount]

I'm curious if people know where the push for this change came from. I've seen a lot of discussion about Mechanical Rider, Decaying Aura, etc. and how they needed to be toned down. But this one seems to have come without a lot of warning. 

I heard Jakob was being pretty dominant in a few tournies which I assume is what got the engine rolling. That it pretty much invalidated his main attack action (the gun) and could stack absurd amounts of damage while also getting Huggy into the package pretty much cemented it in my head as warranted.

[MasterDisaster]

I'm curious if people know where the push for this change came from. I've seen a lot of discussion about Mechanical Rider, Decaying Aura, etc. and how they needed to be toned down. But this one seems to have come without a lot of warning. 

 

4-6 guaranteed damage 3 times a turn is plain broke. Simple as that. From what I've heard Lynch was considered top rank in Tournaments because he can just go around Executing people willy nilly. There have always been players who felt Lynch's ability to kill so utterly easily was OP. To be honest I'm surprised it took this long to get an errata.

[sharpobjects]

No

 

Jakob is a support master that gets a practically free facebeater henchman and that upgrade completely broke his dynamic by making him a massive damage dealer. Capping it at damage 4 would have just meant 8 quick damage on anything without much answer, again, from a Ca of 7 with a range of 10 and from a model that has no bussiness being a destroyer. Now it's what it should always have been, an "Oh shit" button.

 

This doesn't make sense to me. He can still do 8+ damage in its current errata state with 1 AP. With a cap on damage that the previous poster mentioned he would need to do that amount with 2 AP and he could always fail one of the two attacks by flipping the black joker or the opponent flipping the red etc. It's not an ohh shit button, its still a very powerful attack at ranged that can do 8-10 damage depending on the cards in hand of course. It is still an attack that can be planned for and utilized every turn. A Jacob player can easily have 8-10 cards in his hand if he goes last with Jacob. Now he can only do it once which is fine IMO. Even with the Errata he is not a support master. He can beat your face with his gun at an easily attainable weak of 4 damage in melee or at ranged and he can put 8-10 damage on you with 1 AP once per turn. The errata just took the absurd away. It didn't change him into a support master.

[DeleteAccount]

This doesn't make sense to me. He can still do 8+ damage in its current errata state with 1 AP. With a cap on damage that the previous poster mentioned he would need to do that amount with 2 AP and he could always fail one of the two attacks by flipping the black joker or the opponent flipping the red etc. It's not an ohh shit button, its still a very powerful attack at ranged that can do 8-10 damage depending on the cards in hand of course. It is still an attack that can be planned for and utilized every turn. A Jacob player can easily have 8-10 cards in his hand if he goes last with Jacob. Now he can only do it once which is fine IMO. Even with the Errata he is not a support master. He can beat your face with his gun at an easily attainable weak of 4 damage in melee or at ranged and he can put 8-10 damage on you with 1 AP once per turn. The errata just took the absurd away. It didn't change him into a support master.

It can do 8 damage IF you do not use a single card during your whole turn and activate last, any extra cards can only really come from stitched or from using Pay Up which is the opposite of reiliable. That to me sounds like you can only hope to do that when Jakob is pretty much the only model you have left because I'm pretty sure most turns, even with the Woke up with a hand cards, the highest I tend to maintain is 5. Without the cap, it's trivially easy to do 8-10 damage, or hell, 12-15 if something set up brilliance for you, with the cap it becomes a precise once per turn burst of damage unless you expect to have a fantastic turn based on having the guy that makes your hand wasting the hand he makes for you to bump up his once per turn damage. VEEERY big difference I'd say.

 

Also, yes, the gun can also be very damaging, but there are two snags, you either have a lot of rams in your hand  (remember, an Ace discarded by Jakob is NOT fished back into your hand) or eat through your soulstone cache like candy, which tends to be kind of problematic on a model that has a cache of 1 and has to be 8" from that which he wishes to shoot AND said model he wishes to shoot needs to be unengaged so there is no Randomization OR behind cover OR in dense terrain unless you don't mind eating another stone to compensate for that. Also, being Sh 6 instead of Ca 7 is also a factor as well as the 2 extra inches Pay Up gets

 

The gun is nasty when he has the rams and wants to use the stones, no denying that, but it eats resources like the devil as long as you aren't giving me targets on a silver platter. So no Jakob, like stated, uses offensive capabilities like an oh shit button, not to become "he who erases a model or two per turn". Because there is another very big phantom effect to the errata, knowing that Jakob could spam that thing 3 times per turn, there was no way in hell I would get closer than 10" from him with Seamus because I knew that was curtains, now knowing it's a once per turn deal, I can tank it in the face and then keep on trucking.

[Sevorin]

4-6 guaranteed damage 3 times a turn is plain broke. Simple as that. From what I've heard Lynch was considered top rank in Tournaments because he can just go around Executing people willy nilly. There have always been players who felt Lynch's ability to kill so utterly easily was OP. To be honest I'm surprised it took this long to get an errata.

 Have you faced Ophelia?

[Fetid Strumpet]

Not getting involved in whether he's OP or not, but in every encounter I've ever played against Lynch he never uses his attacks as a get out of trouble card, he always uses the rams and final debt to just kill things. And that is with different players in different venues experience, not just one closed meta. I'm not saying he has to be played that way, but in my opinion and experience Lynch is primarily an offensive master backed up by a little support.

[Grez90]

As a Lynch user for most of my games before wave 2 models came out, I can see why the errata was done, but I do not think it was the big bad everyone makes it out to be. There are many ways to counter Lynch, and more so than ever since wave 2 was released. Condition removal, summoning, counterspell all make him a much weaker threat due to his short threat range. I think this errata will just mean you will see more illuminated and be using Lynch as the brilliance set up so that huggy and 2-3 illuminated can go cause trouble themselves.

I would be more inclined to take 52 card pick up now, and addict on huggy. More than likely meaning your illuminated are pushing through 4/6/7 on +flips to everything. After an early turn mulligan that might end up causing the same amount of damage final debt used to do.