Ogid

It shouldn't be expensive... It's not like they have promised to replace everyone's cards for free after each errata, modifying a card shouldn't take more than 15 mins (and that's counting proof reading and comparing it with others a few times) and everyone get the update for free in the App; in fact it's the opposite because both Wyrd and others like Wargame Vault make money selling or printing those new cards (which is perfectly fine btw as it keeps the game alive). There must be a balance tho, no one wants to replace his full set of cards each patch or have to relearn how to play his crews after each few moths for a huge amount of changes, but revisiting a few extra models shouldn't be a problem.

No worries, I thought you were refering to a past patch during beta, it's always interesting to hear about older iteration of models. Yes, there are some similarities but Riders have some things that really tips the scale; Ruthless (I guess not that important in TT that has a lot of them, but still noticeable), Ride with me is huge and the Revel in X also give them some over the top abilities. Yasunori is quite restricted in that department but he had in his favor being a bit cheaper and better (maybe too much) in a straight fight. Now he has the same price but lack those over the top features that make worth it paying 11SS for a 2 AP model with 9 Wds. His Revel in chaos is good, but it need support (healing) from the crew and make him easier to kill at least during 1 activation, so it's a bit bold after the first turn and require more investment than the other revel abilities. Losing Onslaught now he is worse on his own which restricts his use and even if the damage output in a big scrap could be the same in general, losing the ability to focus down models really hurts his performance imo; maybe this is a playstyle issue, but I'm usually not interested in hurting some random model near of my target and I value quite high the ability to just obliterate a model; that last point is powerful to both put pressure in the other player (which will play differently if he knows Yasu can just kill any overextended model) and to actually do that versus unactivated models and deny activations while gaining activation control. He was too good before, but I just don't see a use for this one... but maybe other players that play more TT than me could give some insight for niches where he could be viable now.

I don't like him for this, at all. I find him viable with Misaki because he may trade shadow markers for schemes, has a lot of good teleport points with all the shadow markers laying around and may also create shadow markers to give Misaki the ability to unbury in remote places which is awesome mid to late game and to punish model trying to kill him. Without Misaki and Shadow Markers all over the place and for 7SS I find him quite underwelming as a runner. I also like more having a heavy hitter drawing attention from the 2 Katashiros than having a third squishy schemer to look for; Misaki and Ototo will also be in position to create more shadow markers for Minako if one of the Katashiros is killed way more easily than the Torakage; and what's worse, he can't create 2 shadow markers the first turn, unlike the other 2.

I think they went too far with him tbh, I've not found a reason to play him in any list since GG1 errata and the only time he was played versus me after the patch he was quite disapointing... He was too good before but nerfing both his ofense (I disagree with you in this point, Onslaught is miles better than Quick Reflexes), his defenses AND increasing the cost (which make him further squishy for his cost because no Wd or defensive tech was added on top of nerfing his mask generation) was too much. Also if we are talking about GG1 no other rider got a price increase, the pale rider got his bonus tweaked but that's it. It's no the end of the world tho, there are a lot of other good model to choose; but he was overcorrected imo.

This has come up before. Those clauses seems to instruct what to do if that happens in the middle of an action/ability, but they don't seem to restrict it to only happen there. Take a look to Aversion's Antipathy aura. It has that "after resolving the current action" clause but also specifies that the push of this Antipathy aura (which happens outside of an action) cannot trigger other Antipathy auras. Hence that ability is intended to trigger outside of actions even when it has that "after resolving the current action".

Terracota are good imo; but these need to go in with a plan in mind; that's copying some tacticals (Misaki, Ototo and Asami have good stuff for him to copy for example) and also having some good target to replace. Don't get greedy and aim towards high cost models because you'll need a high suited card for that; if that happens, awesome, but don't count on that. The most reliable targets are high impact, low cost models like some totems (Amanjaku, Shang...) or some enforcers (Mr Tannen). Obsidian might be worth in games where you have a lot of burning going on; I haven't played it but I guess it'd have some niche; probably with Asami, Shenlong or Mei Feng and paired with the other Fire themed versatiles. The TTB... I've never used them (nor have them) and I do find them a bit underwhelming on paper... IDK, maybe with Youko or Lynch to put more pressure on the other player's hand with that aura (and if a model happens to be also within a Distraction aura the odds to pass the flip will be quite low)... you might try them. Take a look to the lone swordsman tho. That model hits HARD even for thunder's standars, has decent mobility with his bonus, is tanky enough and can also pull off some extra shenanigans getting free pass tokens or slowing enemies. I've been happy with him the few times I put him on the table. And also don't overlook the humble Shadow Effigy, one of the best effigies imo. Remember the mission is very very good, it also has a nice defensive aura and he also got a decent attack on top of that (and of course H2K, Accomplice plus Armor as all other effigies which make it decently tanky for a 4SS and able to chain activate).

^ This, I also wait until the perfect moment to engage him (not necesarily at the end of a round tho). That's usually after my other models are controlling or threating enemy models; at that point he is also killable if the other player wants it out of the picture, but that would mean not attacking my other models already in the fray; which is a win at that point for me. He can't go in first (or second).

NVB is as much about killing as OUT is and lack good and cheap scheme runners outside of dual faction masters (and even those masters aren't 100% score focused, but more of mixed combat/scoring crews). NVB is kill first score later; If you wan't to get away from brawls, I'd look for another one.

I want to echo the Samurai, pantless Samurai and drunk Racoon; that's a very solid start. They don't have to synergize super well with any crew, but they are bringing either very independent and solid models or a ton of support on a very cheap model. As you said there are a lot of good option in the faction, most of the versatile pool is legit. But I want to give a bit of shoutout to a few OOK picks that are as worthy of consideration as the versatiles: Yamaziko: Amazing jack of all trades but the reason she is a worthy OOK pick is her aura when paired with lots of minions; to everything is dope and can even help to counter defensive tech like Terrifying, Manipulative or SC. Sun Quiang: The best support on the faction hands down, and with how good he is and having 8 Wds for cost 7 I don't really feel the OOK tax tbh. Mind his Kind of medicine and Bedside manners combined make killing any H2K model near of him not an easy task (which includes ANY model if you are willing to buy SP upgrade). Also flying models or models with place effects fighting around him will get free healing. Tanukis are cheaper and sometimes that's all you need, but don't overlook this guy. Df 7 btw. Sidir Alchibal: 3 important tech counters on this model: Ruthless, Analyze Weakness and Blow it to hell. Pricy but to consider depending if you need several of them on the game. Lucas+Luna+something that creates scrap: Deceptively high damage output with all those TNs but also a lot of control with the Netgun, he is also the only Ride with me model in the faction (as long as he isn't the leader) and he brings OPtifacts for your minions and himself. The sword has precise, which is just nuts; and Life leech with any H2K minion is another good combo; with fast on top of that. And he doesn't die, he just dismounts lol. Huckster: Scheme runner on steroids. Kabuki Warrior: Arguable and probably more a personal favourite than a solid OOK, but his distraction aura is very powerful when paired with good Wp attacks or effects; he dies easily versus anything that's not a mele attack so he must be picked considering the other crew and benefice a lot from extra defensive tech or models able to look after him. Lotus Eater: Not sure about him because I've never picked him as a tech piece, but unless I'm missing something he's the only model in the faction able to eat any kind of marker (including those not being able to get destroyed by blow it to hell or Burn it down), so he might be very valuable versus crews with those kind of non-destructible markers. Izamu+Chiaki+Sun Quiang (or any retainer): This was nerfed in GG1 and now it needs the third model to work (and eats half of a crew SS lol), but it's still to consider if those 3 models would work well in that game. Izamu's Reliquary make up for the 3SS tax and those are 3 very solid models. I also don't think a Katashiro is worth a 12... In my case, she goes in with Ototo/Misaki OOK to get 2 shadow markers the first turn or not at all.

That happens, but in those cases don't be afraid to go versatile/OOK heavy. In the best case you'll catch them off guard and that might win the game; you may also end with a subpar crew and lose the game tho... but that's something likely anyway into a bad match up and that kind of experiments will make you a stronger player. Win-win.

Lol, I guess the cold never bothered him anyway. So what do you do in worst case scenario? Just use 2 AP from the master to create 2 ice pilars, expend SS to create aditional ones? Do you rely on Shattering Shove (Gigants) for any kind of opening? How do you pivot when the inital hand make that impossible?

I play way more NVB than thunders but I do like (and play) some of the models of your list... Yamaziko make into my Misaki crews frecuently. Her damage isn't really hight but She isn't going in as a damage dealer but for her utility and versatility. Extended Reach may keep her and other models alive, she is the only model with a built in tomes for 2 possible built in triggers (one of which gives both card draw and pass tokens which is just bonkers and not hard to get with the ammount of marker the crew generates), the aura works for every single duel your minions make (attack, defense, terrifying, shockwaves, tactical actions... which make them way better and relieve pressure from the hand if you rely on high TNs like all the Tanuki abilities) and she has other 2 possible bonus actions, one of which may let her drop 2 schemes per turn (or letting her move 12'') and the other making her even tankier. And master tactician, even if situational, can destroy the hand of careless masters that like to dive (which opens a window of oportunity for other models to strike or for Misaki's Execute). And all of that for 7SS. Kunoichis are another jack of all trades I like; tho it's true they aren't super flashy nor fast, they are set up intensive for damage and more expensive models can overpower them if they have the right abilities/actions. I understand the complains because I also felt their limitations in some games, but in others they performed fine. The first turn she always give Focused+2 to my beater of choice (with some chip damage that my healer handle/get regenerated or pasively healed after it), after that she is a flexible model not that easy to kill with her defensive tech and able to support my other models either by keeping the ping damage up while giving focused and repositioning my models with her tactical or able to get some damage under certain circunstances (isolated/lured models or Distracted+2 stacked); and in a pinch she isn't useless going on her own to drop a scheme as she can disengage with Reposition and has some threat versus isolated models (tho she is slow for the scheme runner standars and can't double scheme). And the extra good card from Tools for the Job and them as a cheap source of pass tokens is valuable. I wouldn't mind her getting some minor buff tho. Low river for 4SS heal a lot, specially in a Shenlong crew with the extra chi (and are the cheapest Chi batteries); for 5SS as OOK I personally rather the Tanuki. I'm on the fence about the Emissary as I've not played him yet; but at least with Asami to cicle the hand looking for a 13 has to be golden (specially because Ama can make him take that action twice to skyrocket the chances to get the card to put a Jorogumo on the table). I need to test them more but so far I'm kind of liking them. They do die too easily versus anything that has ranged attacks or some kind of jump, so versus these kind of crews they are a big no-no unless they plan to hug Bill or something with take the hit (so it's true they maybe could use some defensive buff... I like that +1Wd idea); but versus mostly mele crews they can be very annoying. Her Lure is stat 6, which is really high for a 4SS model (the only other stat 6 lure in keyword is 9SS Hinamatsu), her sharp wit is affected by her distraction aura and that's incredible accurate for a 4SS model (and she can always charge, slow the model and then disengage to leave that model in a really akward position as she has Disguised). Another dangerous thing is move and Lure a model so it ends within the Distraction aura but not engaged with her (now that model is at risk of getting the full barrage of Youko's Wp abilities with to duels while needing 2 AP to try to kill a 4SS model)

Interesting. I'm guessing killing the sheishins is high priority for this as these may get models able to interact easily into position? Does she go OOK for better schemers like Necropunks or Manos or does she needs to play in keyword? Another option is damaging actions that doesn't target or damage from abilities: Shockwaves (like Euripides/Pandora ones), BBP from Hayreddin/BBS, blade rush, Misery... however that may help but it's probably not a good main source of damage; Kirai (and RES in general) has access to very good healing; tickling them to death doesn't look like a good idea, but still worth including as it might get some model low enough to get blown up in one or 2 hits or finish some low Wd model without taking more Vengeance damage. Not sure about Roaring here tho... she has condition removal on her keyword for the slow (if a minion is the target) and also extra walk actions for her models (and even both in the same ability lol) so she might undo the effects of that roar; and that's a 8SS model using an stat 5 action to do that (and the best target, a Goryo, has Wp6).

Titania is not well suited to handle Incorporeal/Flying models ignoring all her terrain (which also deny her the extra ping damage with Emissary/Killjoy in the incorporeal model's case and the AP the other player loses when a model is moved into a Severe marker); plus Kirai's heal deny is one of the few things that can get Killjoy killed and counters Serena quite well (and even Titania's life leech). Maybe try another master versus her, that looks as a tough match up for her tbh (and res have also the option to get Molly as second master...) You may benefice from Focused and heavy hitters in this game (so BBS into Mature is seems a very solid option; and Black blood goes through incorporeal, but mind Vengeance won't trigger it). Vengeance is after resolving, so it won't trigger if the model is dead (or is this just for triggers?... Not 100% sure now); anyway just kill them in a few heavy hits, the longer you take, the more damage you'll get. Zoraida could also be fun because Vengeance works versus friendly attacks (and that Flay trigger in Goryo and onslaught on Ikiryo may backfire hard if they relent the defense). Euripides as second Master could be an option, with Intuition+Focused could be feasible getting high damage and he has a damaging tactical action (which goes through incorporeal and SC); it won't kill a model by itself alone (maybe you may snipe a few sheishins); but it might help to finish a few models or punish them if they hug each other. Just a few ideas from the top of my head, good luck!

I tried to adress the fact that this thread's point was kind of "This ability exist, but this other more powerful version of it also exists, so the second one should be a mistake/OP" or "This model has this very unique ability, that should be a mistake/OP". And I was just disagreeing with that. That kind of reasonings does try to streamline stuff so everything ends "balanced" and similar to other things in the game. Overperforming/OP stuff should be adressed, unique stuff working well is designers doing a very good job. My point was that the power of different models can be balanced in different ways and if one model has one very awesome thing, but it's in line because the limitations of the crew/model/whatever that's enriching for the game (imho) and those kind of things force players to adapt to different match up which is good for the game (again imho). All that within a reasonable limits of course, that flip a jocker and win the game feels very wrong. But as you said this is very subjetive, I guess other people will have very different opinions, and that's fine.

I noticed you named masters from potentially 3 different factions. While that's a personal option, I really recommend you to pick one faction and stick to it as it's the way to give your bucks the best playability (as long as you are willing to mix and match them); also pure themed list aren't (in most cases) the most competitive. If you are restricting yourself to that, you really need to pick those few keyword able to work well alone. You should be good with Zoraida versus Misaki tho, both are top tier masters able to work well in a wide range of pools; but you'd benefice a lot from versatile and OOK picks.

Not everything powerful has to not be intended and it can be balanced in several ways. I don`t know well some of the other cases you listed but Frozen Trophy is good example of that. Also I personally don't want a game with dopplegangers of each other abilities, because one ability/trigger has a TN not everything that does something similar has to have it. On paper it sounds awesome, but in practice it is balanced by the model and crew that trigger is in. Thoon is 9SS with low damage, no way to get extra actions, a very situational bonus action and he is in a crew where anti-marker tech is expected (and also under normal circunstances you can't froze something and toss that pilar away and any model can remove it, even engaged insignificant ones) and it'll cost him 1SS most of the time. So getting good use of that trigger is not easy at all. I've been asking for him in the NVB forum and the answers I got range from situational 20% pick (in his own crew) to glorified roadbock and I've not seen him picked as OOK. Frozen Trophy in a vacuum is awesome, but give that trigger a TN and Thoon will be lost on the shelf forever (it doesn't help Savages and Chimera are leading and neck to neck in the race for the least successful NVB keywords) I agree, the duet getting 2 activations is clearly intended; but it can go unnoticed for someone not familiar with how replace works. Also this kind of got already errated, the new replace rules avoid the 4 activation combo with the rider, now only 3 are possible. Another example of models breaking the even activations is the entire Youko keyword (from turn 2 or 3 when the other player start revealing the schemes at least) and any other model able to generate pass tokens like some of Misaki's models (Yamaziko specially as she has the trigger built in) or the lone swordman. I personally would like every effect having a cap (even if it's a really high one like 6 or 8), but as long as it's hard to set up I don't have much problems with it. For Serena the biggest problem is the lack of other options, if a NVB player wants healing or defensive condition removal (2 things you usually want in a crew versus a lot of things), she is the only real option in the faction for a lot of crews (on top of being one of the few models not made out of glass). If NVB ever get some decent cheap support, she will show up a lot less. Tanuki+Low River vs Sun Quiang in TT is a good example of this. Fiendish Gamble is probably intended as it is, stitched got heavily tonned down during GG1 but that remained, and with his Df lowered to 5 he is also now worse defensively; remove also that form him and he will be near to useless. Also most summoning keywords have hand relieving abilities, from ton of card draw to easy to duels. Even if it's true Kirai's free totem feels a bit too much; that would be too harsh... either increase Kirai's cost a few SS or change that ability to only work when both are hired; both solutions achieve the same while still giving her the ability to summon the totem as second master.

Malifaux logic: Everything beats ice Fun is probably the right word . I really doubt is top tier, but in the right map versus the right crew it might be good enough and quite fun. Thinking a bit more about it, Alan could also be legit; he gives an extra card to help with the ton of duels and staggered to make harder to pass all those Mv duels; and he also has Execute, however that range 0'' and no ability to place himself doesn't go well with the pilar spam. Tell us how it goes if you try it!

I was refering more to Colette swap as a great way to put an enemy model in harms way without overextending her own models; but yeah when playing versus something like that the term overextending blurs a bit because the "danger" zone is most of the table XD. However that agressive way to handle it seems worth it; both you and Kharnage countered that opening by early agression (which makes sense because Colette won't have the resources to handle several powerful models at once). But It's not fool proof tho; I've seen games versus her where players trying to save/support a kidnapped model overextended one or more model and eneded with those also getting killed (and the game downhill from there)

I guess it makes sense... and for what I see that reading seems to have a good amount of people agreeing with it. I'll play it like that, ty!

Just defining it, as you say the model has a lot of mediocre things for a 9SS model, not having even a tactical action worth in most scenarios nor any way to generate an extra action; but he got also some neat thing and Frozen trophy is unique so I'm on the fence with him. I was just wondering how much success people was having using him and in which scenarios he is worth it. Do you use him a lot with the crew or only ocassionaly? So in which scenarios do you find useful using a 9SS model as area denial? The back to back activation could be neat tho; specially if it's Thoon + Euripides (who has a 10'' push for the ice pilar); but I guess that depends a lot on the enemy crew, there are very mobile models able to reach that even when it's pushed.

The unbury from shadows doesn't resolve (which is what the card refers as if it does so), she only unburies thanks to that rulebook clause with even changes how and specifies who places her... I lean more towards not penalty. But I agree it's not clear... it'd be fine either way tho, unburying like that is really niche anyway.

I meant playing agressive, not just existing on the board when the other player has fast models She was definitelly at risk, but baiting with one of the least vulnerable models was a good play; without Focused, he needed 1 SS per attack to not being at ; which is a huge drain. And I agree Assassinate isn't likely without including in the crew something that goes well against the master's defenses. Ty to you guys for posting it! It's always good to see how other people handle those situations.

Now you can use that awesomeness for your own benefice But as Adran say protecting them is still worth it, unburying in the deployment might mean she wastes the full activation just walking towards the action. However eliminating all shadow markers require a huge AP investment, I don't think is worth it. Not sure about this part tho, that penalty seems tied to she unburing successfuly with "from shadows"

I also try to give my models at least a fair chance at their flips, maybe I could take chances with cheap models, but with a 10SS model with 2 actions... no way... In that scenario I'd have gone either Concentrate + Charge or Charge (buying with SS)+ Arcane Burst. I definitelly have to check the odds for that. I usually watch games comparing what I'd do with what players are doing and that's definitelly a play I wouldn't go for... and maybe I'm missing openings for it. Ty for answer guys. I'm curious to see her in action as she was on my radar as potential S tier for double master. Double master summoners can usually only summon 2 models, but her can summon 3, and 2 of them the first turn which is the best turn to summon and in a faction with the Whisper... that's scary.