Dreamer Change thought

[nilus]

I think I could manage longer with Kirai actually. use Datsu-ba to walk a Insidious Madness, move 2nd Insidious Madnes forward, move 1st Insidious Madness forward. Into the Spirit World to 2nd Insidious Madness, Swirl to 1st Insidious Madness summon Ikiryo. 44" forward.

Yeah you are right, we best just ban all the book 2 masters except Hoffman

I really need to get more games in against Kirai. Honestly at this point she scares me more then the Dreamer just because I lack experience against her.

[edonil]

I think I could manage longer with Kirai actually. use Datsu-ba to walk a Insidious Madness, move 2nd Insidious Madnes forward, move 1st Insidious Madness forward. Into the Spirit World to 2nd Insidious Madness, Swirl to 1st Insidious Madness summon Ikiryo. 44" forward.

...I apparently missed something big with the Madness...holy crap.

And that would be it...that lovely walk of 8". Sheesh.

Edited October 13, 2011 by edonil

[Ratty]

The board is only 36", I think it may be overkill.

[edonil]

ll <- It's that much overkill, Ratty.

[nilus]

The board is only 36", I think it may be overkill.

You could play on a 4x4 table as well. 3x3 is just the popular standard.

Buts it not a new thing to have thing with ranges greater then the board they are on. I seem to recall some Imperial Guard Artillary that had such long range they could hit models on tables across the room.

Now back to topic.

[LoboStele]

I think I could manage longer with Kirai actually. use Datsu-ba to walk a Insidious Madness, move 2nd Insidious Madnes forward, move 1st Insidious Madness forward. Into the Spirit World to 2nd Insidious Madness, Swirl to 1st Insidious Madness summon Ikiryo. 44" forward.

LOL true.

The difference being that Ikiryo gets two actions at best. He also doesn't have Use Soulstone. He also doesn't have the Onslaught Trigger, which allows Chompy to skirt around the issue of how many AP he has left.

It also has no option for a yo-yo AND leave Kirai 36-ish inches across the table, vulnerable for a counter attack.

Now, granted, with Kirai's crews, you could typically pull this off at the end of a round by out-activating an opponent. So, if you get lucky with the Initiative, you might be able to get Kirai back to the safety of your side of the board the next turn right away.

Still though, it's MUCH more limited compared to what Chompy can do, IMO.

[Ratty]

Most of the time I don't do this.. I will Into the Spirit World 18" forward of my start line.. and summon Ikiryo 12", for a total of 36" out, then Soothe Spirit myself and swirl back 12".. so that's a hit all the way across the board and a return to my half.

[LoboStele]

Most of the time I don't do this.. I will Into the Spirit World 18" forward of my start line.. and summon Ikiryo 12", for a total of 36" out, then Soothe Spirit myself and swirl back 12".. so that's a hit all the way across the board and a return to my half.

Still though, being able to do this requires 2 different fairly particular cards in your hand, or burning soulstones, at least if you want to do it on your first turn. So I still don't see it as quite as bad as the Dreamer's yo-yo options.

And as noted before, Ikiryo still does less damage than Chompy, even if you get Severe damage on both attacks, it's pretty tough for Ikiryo to kill an enemy Master on Turn 1 or 2. For Chompy, that's no problem at all. Between Poison and Onslaught, I've had plenty of times where Chompy has killed my Master, even though I burned all of my stones trying to stop him. Onslaught is brutal. And my card flips weren't THAT bad in those matchups, so I wouldn't chalk it up to just bad luck.

[Gollum528]

I realize that this may be an unpopular opinion in this thread but I would like to see no changes to the dreamer. I agree that he is the most powerful master in the game but I also think it'd be too easy to make him one of the worst with even a slight change. My thought is that wyrd should create models that can mess with his play style. Just off the top of my head you could give the guild a model with a 6" aura that prevents any models from being buried and of course give each faction a way to deal with one of his specific issues.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Sure you could maybe do that with Kirai,... if you had the right cards in hand, and you were willing to take the wounds, and even then you would only get the Ikiryo in there, and let's face it the Ikiryo is not an all out melee monster.

The Ikiryo is a solid Melee model, don't get me wrong, but in my experience she doesn't perform all that well going up against most masters or tough to kill models. She excels in killing off the cheaper or frailer minions that most crews bring. The austringers and convict gunslingers etc.

But even barring that I'm far more ok with getting one model into a deployment zone on first turn than an entire crew, and losing pretty much the most important model to boot because unlike the Ikiryo, Chompy IS a melee monster who can pretty consistently kill the hard to kill models after one or two combat activations.

Now before anyone says that I'm just favoring Kirai I do believe that Kirai get pretty close to the line and very possibly dances upon it, making faces at the other masters, but at the very least in her mechanics you have to work to do what she can do. Placement and Timing are as important for her as it is for the Dreamer, but she has to spend a significant amount of her SS at the beginning of the game to do her tricks on a model that poses no real threat in itself to the opponent (Seishin), she has to manage her own wounds like a reasource, and she has to have the right cards in hand, of which the only low one she needs is the one to summon the Ikiryo, which, when summoning eats more than half her wounds.

Now, if the Dreamer had additional resources to manage, or needed a better hand, or certain abilities he had stopped working for some length of time after other abilities were used, I might be more ok with it. If it posed a serious risk to the Dreamer I *might* be persuaded that the movement of an entire crew into melee range in the opponents deployment zone *might* be acceptable. But of the suggestions I've heard I think I like pgbsamurai's the best as it is a simple an elegant rule, which still gives the Dreamer the ability to move his crew very swiftly, but not to the ridiculous amount currently in the game.

[Lucidicide]

I realize that this may be an unpopular opinion in this thread but I would like to see no changes to the dreamer. I agree that he is the most powerful master in the game but I also think it'd be too easy to make him one of the worst with even a slight change. My thought is that wyrd should create models that can mess with his play style. Just off the top of my head you could give the guild a model with a 6" aura that prevents any models from being buried and of course give each faction a way to deal with one of his specific issues.

The popularity of an opinion has no impact on its worth to a discussion.

That said, if you agree that he is the most powerful Master in the game, then he is unbalanced. It is far easier to tone him down than to bring everything up to his level. Additionally, keep in mind that creating a model or two that is good against him doesn't necessarily help unless you know you're fighting the Dreamer.

Regardless, errataing a bunch of models to compete (or waiting a year for Book 4) does not strike me as a real option if he is truly unbalanced. Additionally, just providing a model that you basically have to take if you want the game to be "fair" is a problem -- you then have to know you're fighting the Dreamer.

Also, keep in mind that the Dreamer doesn't have unique mechanics except for One Master. This means that anything you do to effect him (like limiting Burying) can affect other things (like Death Marshals).

Overall, it's way more difficult to change other things to fix the Dreamer... far better to fix him.

[Ozz]

Gollum528, The Issue i see with that aura is it is simple to deal with, the dreamer player kills that, then he is free to do what he wants again. If any changes are to be made, it really needs to be to the dreamer himself, or the Daydreams. I think anyway.

[karn987]

Now, if the Dreamer had additional resources to manage, or needed a better hand, or certain abilities he had stopped working for some length of time after other abilities were used, I might be more ok with it. If it posed a serious risk to the Dreamer I *might* be persuaded that the movement of an entire crew into melee range in the opponents deployment zone *might* be acceptable. But of the suggestions I've heard I think I like pgbsamurai's the best as it is a simple an elegant rule, which still gives the Dreamer the ability to move his crew very swiftly, but not to the ridiculous amount currently in the game.

The placing Base to Base? That has a lot more issues then it may seem at first. From play experience I can tell you it will become very much a cuddle as you have a lot of big base models going around a small base. Basically, it doesn't really work in practice even though it seems like an ok idea in theory... its hard to really explain. He needs the ability to unbury his Nightmares within a versatile zone. 6" is a nice big area but he could probably do with 3" instead which, as I said earlier, prevents things like hiding on one side of a house and unburying Nightmares on the other.

If that isn't what you mean... then what were you refering to Fetid?

As for the serious risk, that suggestion to the Daydreams I made does exactly that. It makes it so you can't long bomb and return and cuts off a lot of other similiar strategies the Dreamer uses. Any time he needs to have his Daydreams do the same spell twice (which is desecently often) it will have a major impact.

Any Dreamer player will tell you how much they rely on the Daydreams, I've said it over and over again... they are the lynch pins. The ability to only Magical Extension his spells once between all of them a turn has a huge impact! But I don't think it really cuddles him, just blunts his teath a bit. It makes it so he can't strike and return to safety. It makes it hard for him to do his guerilla tactics because now the Dreamer's AP will be spent more often, he can't save it up as easily for LCB.

The card cost is fine, it's really not much of an issue because this is what the Dreamer does. He shouldn't have to pay out the nose for it, it's simply all he does and its all he does. Raising the casting cost just isn't a good way to go about this. Remember, without these abilities being easy to go off... he doesn't work. If he can't reliably cast his spells, if the daydreams can't reliably cast them... then he's a boat without paddles. That's why it's essential they stay lost cost and easy to cast. On most masters these would have just been (1) actions and not even spells. They are spells to put in that chance for failure, the chance not to get the full effect (all my friends), and to make it mechanically easier for the Daydreams to be able to do this.

Edited October 13, 2011 by karn987

[pgbsamurai]

I wasn't saying all nightmares come out in B2B. Just LCB has to come into play B2B no matter what spell or ability brings him in. All other nightmares still gets the 6" deployment range.

That way it stops his slingshot shenanigans without messing up his ability to deploy nightmares. And he still maintains a decent movement potential of 18", or deploying nightmares at 17".

Edited October 13, 2011 by pgbsamurai
To help clarify my stance a little.

[Mentat_Canis]

Well I am going to jump back into this thread I have read every post and I am enjoying the discussion thanks for keeping it civil.

From what I have seen there a couple of main themes from peoples replys.

1. Don't Change him, he is good yes but overpowered maybe not.

2. Change the Dreamer, Thoughts have been around frightening dream, mine where it is one plus one per mask nightmares, the other is you have to drop a card per nightmare.

3. Change Chompy, Take away some triggers or take away use soulstones.

4. Change Daydreams, Limit movement by only allowing daydreams to not cast the same spell as one of there buddies did. Or only one at the start of the game and can summon the rest.

Most peoples biggest issue seems to be that he can get there turn one and do some damage with one or two attacking ap. This surprised me because I would have thought most people would have the issue with him being able to drop his whole crew in one area.

I am still under the impression he does not need to be changed at this point in time, even though I started this thread with the suggestion of the change I just wanted to see what people thought of it. I think his biggest weakness is the daydreams because without them his movement is crippled to some respect.

Once again thanks for keeping this on the level and great comments and thanks to ratty for someone who's say actually ends up mattering for putting forth his comments from time to time.

Edit: I got you Karn thanks for correcting me.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Mentat_Canis

[karn987]

I wasn't saying all nightmares come out in B2B. Just LCB has to come into play B2B, everyone else still gets the 6" deployment range.

Ah, that clears it up some at least. I was working from memory as I lost your post in the sea of replies >.>

Even still though I don't think it is a good idea. Again, large base trying to come into play b2b with a small base... creates to many situatoins where it just won't be possible. Lowering it to 3" gives you at least some wiggle room whil still cutting back on the distance. But even then.... I don't see this as the best or even really a good solution. I can still strike and return and now instead of hitting you in your deployment zone, I hit you from 6" outside of it. So I either fiddle around with early activations or wait for turn 2 to do the same thing. Plus I can still strike and return.

The return is really the problem here it seems.... but we seem to be forming 2 sides of this for those who believe something is amiss and should be tweaked. One side sees the return as the issue and wants to tweak that. The other sees the drop distance as the issue and want's limit that.

Could the solution be something between both of these? Could eliminating the return and lowering the drop distance by a little bit be the solution?

The return's reasons are rather obvious. he makes bit strikes at you and then gets away to almost certain safety.

The distance reduction though has some subtler reasons to it. Sure it stops the first turn strike, but it just becomes a second turn strike if someone really wants to do it, still nearly as effective. But it also limits how far you can go and dump off the Nightmares to. So there is more then just LCB to this picture and I think people hyper focus to much on him. Sure he is an absolute beast... but 2 Teddy's are more dangerous.

So where is the solution? How far can the distance reduction go before it cuddles him and where is the point where it makes a real difference?

Personally I think it is only 1 part of the equation and limiting his drop distance is going to walk that very fine line between good tweak and cuddle.

Edited October 13, 2011 by karn987

[Fetid Strumpet]

Yes, that's what I assumed you meant pgbsamurai.

EDIT @ Karn

For me Karn the return ISN'T the problem, its the icing on a cake that never should have been baked. I have a gigantic problem with letting ANY model be able to move an entire crew into the opponent's deployment zone, with 1 activation. Add to this fact that the crew moved will consist of Melee Monsters, or models like the stitched you don't want to be anywhere near, and add to this fact that Chompy will have killed an important model on the way in, and I feel this is too much.

The out just adds insult to the injury that shouldn't have happened in the first place. Forcing the Dreamer to stay doesn't balance this factor by an appreciable amount. In my experience, the idea that the Dreamer dies very easily is a complete and total myth, so forcing him to stay in an area completely surrounded by nightmares for 1 turn before he flies away doesn't fix the issue. You'll still have to face the

" I kill a model with Chompy, and I drop 2 Lelu and 2 Stitched in your deployment zone and a Lilitu 6" upfield. Dreamer comes back into play between the stitched and you get one action before I bond activate both Lelu and the Lilitu. Oh look, on first turn I killed your three most important models before you got two activations, awesome! Isn't this fun."

This is the big thing that I feel should not be allowed, and if it is allowed it should either require a significant allocation of resources which are not guaranteed, or pose a serious and significant risk to the model involved in pulling it off. Even if you forced the Dreamer to stay surrounded by nightmares, it currently involves neither.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[karn987]

Well I am going to jump back into this thread I have read every post and I am enjoying the discussion thanks for keeping it civil.

From what I have seen there a couple of main themes from peoples replys.

1. Don't Change him, he is good yes but overpowered maybe not.

2. Change the Dreamer, Thoughts have been around frightening dream, mine where it is one plus one per mask nightmares, the other is you have to drop a card per nightmare.

3. Change Chompy, Take away some triggers or take away use soulstones.

4. Change Daydreams, Limit movement somehow this has not been flushed out as much in specifics. Or only allow one to start you can summon more as you go.

Most peoples biggest issue seems to be that he can get there turn one and do some damage with one or two attacking ap. This surprised me because I would have thought most people would have the issue with him being able to drop his whole crew in one area.

I am still under the impression he does not need to be changed at this point in time, even though I started this thread with the suggestion of the change I just wanted to see what people thought of it. I think his biggest weakness is the daydreams because without them his movement is crippled to some respect.

I would love to see those people that think daydreams need changing if you could give some specifics because that might prove to be the best opinions.

Once again thanks for keeping this on the level and great comments and thanks to ratty for someone who's say actually ends up mattering for putting forth his comments from time to time.

As for Daydreams, looks like you might have missed my suggestion:

So lets say it was enough to just keep LCB from returning suddenly to the safety of his Deployment zone etc. What would need to be done to stop this? Remember, its that final Daydream that pulls this off. That 2nd use of Frightening Dreams by the Daydreams is what makes this work.

So one suggestion that seems to do the trick is something like this:

Blah Blah cool name: This model may not use Magical Extension to cast a spell already cast by another Friendly Daydream this turn.

The most popular (not the biggest mind you, not going to trip that land mine XD) issue people have given about Dreamer/LCB is the return on the long bomb. Most dont want to see the pontential go away, but they want him to at least take a serious risk to pull it off... and that suggestion does just that.

[Cunning]

Another option I've pondered is remove the rule where Chompy activates immediately after he's unburied.

It may cuddle him a bit too much. Not sure. It would mean that you can sling him into the enemy deployment zone but your opponent would get a chance to deal with him before he does his thing.

[Hatchethead]

Once again thanks for keeping this on the level and great comments and thanks to ratty for someone who's say actually ends up mattering for putting forth his comments from time to time.

+1 to this. This thread has managed to stay civil and on track, which is far more than can be said for most Neverborn-centric balance discussions. Props to all involved.

I will go on record again as saying my main issue with Chompy is his "guerilla warfare". I don't mind that he can move across the board and hit like a dump truck, but I take issue with the fact that he can do so AND THEN escape without fear of reprisal. To me, that's too much. If the Dreamer player wants to surgically remove a specific enemy model with a Chompy hate missile? Fine, fair enough, but he should have to consider the repercussions of doing so. Potential retaliation should always be a factor.

As for dumping his minions ... yeah, I think maybe it's a little TOO easy to drop a horde of nightmares in the midst of an enemy crew - effectively negating the weaknesses of several of the slower nightmares - but at the same time it doesn't bother me as much as LCB's ability to slingshot. If All My Friends were altered to impose an additional requirement and/or a limitation of some kind, that wouldn't be the worst thing. Or change if from a trigger to a (1). I dunno. Forcing him spend additional AP to airdrop his minions wouldn't be bad.

[Alviaran]

Another option I've pondered is remove the rule where Chompy activates immediately after he's unburied.

It may cuddle him a bit too much. Not sure. It would mean that you can sling him into the enemy deployment zone but your opponent would get a chance to deal with him before he does his thing.

This is actually what I suggested a while back too as an idea. Limit the "immediate activation" part of One Master to only apply if he is brought out via Nightmare Friend or All Done. It puts a break into any shenanigans the Dreamer and LCB are pulling and gives the option for a response.

[Lucidicide]

I know that I am basically just repeating myself here, but this thread can get a lot of posts quickly. I think that

1. Limiting how many times LCB can be buried/unburied in a turn is important. This can easily be accomplished by editing Daydreams so that they can only cast Frightening Dream, etc once per turn through all the Daydreams (as karn mentions). This takes care of guerilla warfare without really changing anything too drastically.

2. I think that if a model is removed from the table, companion should break. If you companion the Dreamer and he's removed from the table, you didn't companion LCB, and therefore you can't go again. This would at least give the opponent one activation in between the long bomb coming at them, and there are many crews who can reliably threaten that Daydream before it gets to go. And even if you can't, you still at least have a slight reaction chance.

Both of those would definitely be a nerf but would not change the core mechanics or make anything "harder." All they would do is essentially slow the Dreamer's playstyle a bit.

[Dracomax]

Gollum528, The Issue i see with that aura is it is simple to deal with, the dreamer player kills that, then he is free to do what he wants again. If any changes are to be made, it really needs to be to the dreamer himself, or the Daydreams. I think anyway.

Honestly, I think a model that allowed you to have a 3" aura that makes it impossible to unbury a model would be better--both from tactical position and from a fluff position--he'd obviously be a death martial.

[Ozz]

Honestly, I think a model that allowed you to have a 3" aura that makes it impossible to unbury a model would be better--both from tactical position and from a fluff position--he'd obviously be a death martial.

Gives you the same issue though, chompy is unburried 3" from a model, chompy has a 3" mele range, chompy eats the model, chompy disappears.

If its a cheap model, then it takes a turn where you don't need to worry about him, but it just seems like a lot of work for this to get changed, more so than tweaks to the dreamer, as you would need to make the model for each faction with something similar, cant be the same, easier as people keep saying to change something on the Dreamer/Daydreams.

[Gollum528]

My thought with having models that do something that disrupts the dreamer wouldn't be that that's all they do. It would be like an exorcist model except applied to the dreamer instead of Kirai. It wouldn't be a waste if you brought the model and the dreamer wasn't playing but simply by the model existing it would make the opposing player more hesitant to bring the dreamer because suddenly it become a difficult battle for him. I personally would much prefer to see something show up to make other crews equal to the dreamer than tone the dreamer down because I'm afraid of turning him useless.