New player - choice of master

[gribble]

Firstly, apologies if this is not the right place for this... I couldn't see an obvious "new players" area.

I've read a bit about the game, some starting out articles and advice, and I've narrowed (not very much, I know) my choice of master down to one of:

• Sonnia Crid - I love the look of the witchlings, and the inquisition/witch hunter/burn them all theme
• Von Schill - the Freicorps look cool, and I like the idea of a durable "tough guy", and a starting band that are good all rounders
• The Viktorias - I like the sucker punch vibe, and generally like to get up in an opponents face with a melee playstyle
• Titania - I'm a huge fan/sucker for the fae vibe, and especially like the look of the Autumn Court.
• Ironsides - again, I like the "tough gal" vibe, and the idea of getting up in opponents face / melee playstyle

So aesthetically, I'd rank them Sonnia > Viktorias > Titania > Von Schill > Ironsides
I think in terms of a match for my preferred playstyle, I'd rank them Ironsides/Viktorias > Von Schill > Titania/Sonnia

Another factor is that I really prefer my band to be able to expand and keep with the same aesthetic - i.e. for Sonnia I'd prefer to keep the witchhunter vibe, for Titania the Fae, for Von Schill the Freicorps, and I wouldn't like to pick up a master which really wants a henchman or minions that don't fit that same vibe to play. For example, I don't really like Titania's snake (doesn't seem to fit the Fae vibe of the other models), or Guild "cowboys" or robots (so I'd want to avoid them in my Sonnia band), I like that Vanessa is another "sister" for the Viktorias, etc.

Finally, after picking up and playing with this band a bit, I'd prefer to first expand with 1 or 2 other models (i.e. I don't want a starter band whose henchmen/minions I will want to replace with other models). I'll also eventually want to pick up additional masters/starters - probably from the rest of the list above, though others I'd consider are Zoroida, Hamelin and Jacob Lynch - so I'd like synergy between them. Either as in reusing some of my additional models with another master (if they fit thematically) and or contrasting/complementary in playstyle.

Any advice would be welcome!

[dancater]

I guess this forum is as good a place as any to post, often new players pick a faction and post in the respective faction forum for advice but you've managed to cover 4 factions in your choices so that would not really work.

So welcome, where to start....

Well Book 5 has just come out with new master upgrades which is going to really shake up the general play of every master and will, until folks have played things out a bit, make any advice on master/crew - beginner - tactics be really more guidelines.

I would say that maybe you want to consider a faction as that will give you more coverage and cross-playability in your crews and let you play more variety for cheaper price.  Malifaux is not a single crew game, the play method of schemes-strats-opposing faction means that its rare that a single master will provide you complete coverage without some painful hard counter (there are tool box master exceptions who are at least OK to good in most games), and this is doubly true of a restricted crew selection.

Now I like to theme my crews, even though it is often not "optimal" and I generally go (for a standard 50SS) about 35-40SS as my theme, the 'core crew' and then another 10-15SS which is whatever mercs and in-faction allies my merry bad of murderous misfits will need.  I think this is a good mindset to balance in-theme against pure crew optimisation, but its up to you.

So the crews you've highlighted, I've ordered them by play style because ultimately you want to play the game:

• Ironsides (Arcanist) she is tough and with the new upgrades looks very good, but she is a brawler master who wants to mix it up so can be rough on new players.  Her in-theme is pretty open as her main crew support is M&SU which gives a good range of models.  Aesthetically well I like Arcanists they are my main faction but this is such a personal thing that is a place I cannot give real advice.  Likely to make Toni Irons really rock you'll need the Ramos crew box as Joss and Howard Langston are simply to good not to use with Ironsides, might need to think about if that works for you.
• Viktoria's (Outcast) are a scalpel, executioners, ultimate glass cannon.  The Vik bomb where henchman Vik flys across the field like a frenzied feral cat with steel tipped claws is truly a thing to behold and justly feared... but the sisters are also very fragile so this in a different way to Toni Irons is also a crew which does not forgive the mistake.  I'll note the only crews you have mentioned which cross faction are Outcasts so that is worth noting and with the more mix and match nature of Outcasts and the fact many of them can later merc into crews of any faction these ladies are a solid option, Vanessa is also a good model.
• Von Schill (Outcast) is a dependable and solid master and crew, tough and work-a-day but not spectacular, not a bad crew to intro and learn the game but you'll rarely have that epic game where everything simply works and you dominate.  Several Friekorps models are staples in other crews and excellent for the old merc boss also his book 5 upgrades look interesting, again lots a mercs and cross over to other crew potential.
• Titania (Neverborn) was widely considered the disappointment of the book 4 release and her crew was thought of as low tier, however word is book 5 upgrades and other models have really looked like giving the fallen queen a boost so guessing she'll be more vigorously fighting for her lost throne soon, as a starting master she is very scheme and tricks dependant, probably not ideal.  Between book 4 & 5 a good Fae crew seems very possible and there is some interesting potential cross over to other NB masters, particularly Zoraida if you're so inclined.   
• Sonnia Criid (Guild) the mistress of flame and the Witch hunter commander is a flat dangerous master and book 5 has further provided options but generally she needs non-theme Guild support to shine, in particular many Guild players take the Ortega Francesco, if you hate the mexi-western look then that is probably bad.  She is a solid master with a fairly basic and productive schtick of smashing opponents with a long range conflagration of vengeful fires so not a bad starting master IF you take a good cross section of Guild support, if you don't then she is vulnerable to alpha strikes and has limited tricks, experienced opponents will smack you quickly.  Guild has some interesting masters and has received several recent boosts, they also have some great starting masters, but the thematic of gunslingers and automatons is something you need to embrace.

Honestly looking at it I'd go Von Schill and the Viks and get a few models like Lazarus, the Strongarm suit, Vanessa among others to further support both crews, start your first few games with the more forgiving Von Schill and when you feel you have a handle on the basic mechanics unleash the sisters Vik and try to get the sibling whirlwind of death singing its dirge. 

Schemes and Stones is an excellent podcast which in its back catalog provides insight (now slightly out of date) on all these masters and is worth listening to.

[gribble]

Thanks! Really solid advice.

So for a typical game/event, how does it work? Do I pick a couple of masters and/or a faction to play? I.e. would I need to turn up with Viks / Von Schill, or would it be ok to play with e.g. Von Schill and Ironsides, or Sonnia and Viks? Can I turn up with just one (even if it's a bad idea) or more than two masters?

I ask because (as tempting as a Titania / Zoraida combo is... maybe for later... especially if Jacob Lynch would play well with that combo) I was leaning towards one melee and one "more" ranged, e.g. either Ironsides or Viks and either Sonnia or Von Schill. It also has the benefit that the first two "melee" ones are a bit more difficult, and the second two "ranged" ones are a bit more beginner friendly. So I could pick up either Sonnia or Von Schill (sounds like Von Schill, if I need the non-witch hunter models with Sonia) first, then branch out into Viks or Ironsides. Depending on whether I need to stick to one faction or not will probably decide that one. The Viks (as a whole box, with Vanessa) look the best to me, but I really like what I've read about the pugilist/adrenaline playstyle of Ironsides...

[Nikodemus]

Typically (can vary by organiser) it's fixed faction 50ss.

So you get to a table with your opponent. You know their faction, agree about the terrain, learn strat & schemes. Then you build you crew, starting with any master from your faction. Then you spend the remaining 50ss picking models and upgrades that that master can legally hire into the crew. Generally from the same faction, though mercenaries and cross faction hiring rules can enable some out-of-faction hires.

So Schill & Viks good. Schill & Ironsides no no, although Ironsides could hire some models from Schill's box because of the mercenary rules. You can turn up with just one master and I'd recommend that if its your first tournament/timed gaming event. You can turn up with all eight if you feel like it.

[gribble]

Ok, thanks!

So if I'm only really interested in one master from a faction (e.g. Ironsides or Sonnia), I'm better off avoiding them and going for the others? Seems like I'm destined to be Outcasts (Von Schill / Viks / Hamelin / Tara) and maybe... eventually... Neverborn (Titania / Zoraida / Jacob / Lucius)! With the added bonus that a lot of the Outcasts can be used as mercenaries.

In terms of a good initial buy in, it sounds like:

Von Schill box, Lazarus and Strongarm Suit (how about Hannah?) to start; followed closely by Viks box and Vanessa? Would that give me enough options for a first event?

[Adran]

yes, typically you pick a faction and then build your list from that faction, so you will have more choice if you own more than 1 master from the faction. 

That said, its perfectly possible to just use one master from a faction, but if you are planning on buying multiple masters, you will get the earliest value for money if they are from the same faction. 

If there is a faction where you think you want multiopel masters from, then thats probably a good place to start. 

[Ludvig]

In my experience it's rare to use all the minions from your starter box. Apart from that I think Viks and von Schill can stay in their themes without suffering too badly. They also have overlap with each other.

If you are going into neverborn Titania will overlap with that. Sonnia seema like the odd duck here and her beat buils usually rely heavily on non-thematic models in my experience.

You seem to be muddying aesthetics and keywords, it doesn't get more thematic than a masters totem that is literally a model that can only be used with that master so Titania's snake is in theme for her. You could of course proxy the model with something else.

[Myyrä]

1 hour ago, dancater said:

• Sonnia Criid (Guild) the mistress of flame and the Witch hunter commander is a flat dangerous master and book 5 has further provided options but generally she needs non-theme Guild support to shine, in particular many Guild players take the Ortega Francesco, if you hate the mexi-western look then that is probably bad.  She is a solid master with a fairly basic and productive schtick of smashing opponents with a long range conflagration of vengeful fires so not a bad starting master IF you take a good cross section of Guild support, if you don't then she is vulnerable to alpha strikes and has limited tricks, experienced opponents will smack you quickly.  Guild has some interesting masters and has received several recent boosts, they also have some great starting masters, but the thematic of gunslingers and automatons is something you need to embrace.

I'd actually claim that wave 5 upgrades made sonnia Witch hunter crews more viable than they have been ever before (and most people would probably agree I know my shit when it comes to Guild). The playstyle would be quite different from the crews that performed really well under GG16, but I doubt they would be left far behind in terms of power.

[Franchute]

As has been mentioned above, you tend to play a faction. Given that most of the masters you propose are outcast, I'd consider this faction. Moreover, the two masters you propose (Von Schill and the Viktorias) are masters typically considered for beginners because of their straightfoward play style.

What is your impression of Hamelin @gribble? I'm asking because he's the master that is typically considered the best among outcasts. If you go with outcats, you may choose to play him in the future for competitive reasons.

[gribble]

Thanks everyone. Decision made - picked up Von Schill box, Lazarus and Strongarm suit on my lunchbreak. As it turned out, the store didn't have Hannah, so she wasn't even an option.

@Myyrä Good to know I could always just play Sonia - is there enough other witch hunter models to support that play style? I see at least two types of witchlings and a witchling handler model?

@Ludvig I most likely am mixing up theme - I didn't even realise it was a keyword. When I said that I meant that the snake didn't really seem like a good fit to me for a Fae aesthetic.

@Franchute Yes, Hamelin definitely does interest me. I'd say after Von Schill and the Viks, he would be my next favourite of the Outcast masters. Him or Tara. So that shouldn't be an issue. Seems Outcast is my faction... though I do still really like the look of Sonnia and some of the Neverborn, as well as the playstyle of Ironsides.

[gribble]

Another question - how hard is it to get hold of the kickstarter exclusive Hannah? I assume I'll want to pick her up eventually with Von Schill, and I really don't like the look of the non-exclusive one.

I even backed the TTB kickstarter, so I'm kicking myself now for not picking her up then...

[Squirrelich]

depends, do you have $100 to spend? Otherwise there is this: 

in which all winners will get one 

[gribble]

@7thSquirrel You can buy her for $100? Where? That is infinitely more likely than me winning a multi-round painting competition I fear...

[Squirrelich]

That is about what I have seen her go for the few times she pops up on ebay or the trading forum. Not sure when the next one will go up

[gribble]

Ah, that was what I was fearing you were going to say - i.e. she's basically unavailable unless you're lucky.

Maybe I'll sign up for Iron Painter then. I have some Freicorps that need assembling and painting now...

[Squirrelich]

Yeah, I know someone locally just had one he was considering selling, but they are usually few and far between. But, paint something for every round in Iron Painter, win or lose, you at least have a chance at one.

[gribble]

Well, if he's still considering, send him my way.

[Myyrä]

4 hours ago, gribble said:

 

@Myyrä Good to know I could always just play Sonia - is there enough other witch hunter models to support that play style? I see at least two types of witchlings and a witchling handler model?

I actually managed to pull off a win with a list like that today against Collodi, so I guess it isn't completely terrible. I did notice that Sammael really needs some mobility boosts to be viable, which really shouldn't come as a surprise as that has always been his biggest weakness. The damage potential of Sonnia chain activating into Sammael is something horrendous though.

Aside from the models in Sonnia's crewbox there are also some other Witch Hunters including the Guild models in the starter set, just released Witchling Thralls and upcoming Thalarian Quellers. Getting all of them would net you way over 50ss, so it's definitely more than enough to play casually. If you wanted a really competitive crew, you would have to include a couple of non-Witch Hunter models, but you aren't losing an awful lot if you don't.

[Nef]

@gribble The good news is even if you don't win, just finishing gives you a chance at the raffle to get one!

[gribble]

14 hours ago, Kai said:

@gribble The good news is even if you don't win, just finishing gives you a chance at the raffle to get one!

Yep, that will likely be my only path to "victory".

[gribble]

17 hours ago, Myyrä said:

I actually managed to pull off a win with a list like that today against Collodi, so I guess it isn't completely terrible. I did notice that Sammael really needs some mobility boosts to be viable, which really shouldn't come as a surprise as that has always been his biggest weakness. The damage potential of Sonnia chain activating into Sammael is something horrendous though.

Aside from the models in Sonnia's crewbox there are also some other Witch Hunters including the Guild models in the starter set, just released Witchling Thralls and upcoming Thalarian Quellers. Getting all of them would net you way over 50ss, so it's definitely more than enough to play casually. If you wanted a really competitive crew, you would have to include a couple of non-Witch Hunter models, but you aren't losing an awful lot if you don't.

Cool - good to know. What about combining the Lady Justice box with Sonnia's box? Along with various death marshalls (though the coffins are a bit goofy) and witchling models, the brutal effigy, judge, jury and (especially) exorcist look cool to me. I'm mainly wanting to avoid using the Ortegas, Hoffman (and his "robots"), Nellie (and friends - I don't like the reporters vibe) and McMourning.

Also, which models from the starter box are witch hunters?

[Adran]

11 minutes ago, gribble said:

Cool - good to know. What about combining the Lady Justice box with Sonnia's box? Along with various death marshalls (though the coffins are a bit goofy) and witchling models, the brutal effigy, judge, jury and (especially) exorcist look cool to me. I'm mainly wanting to avoid using the Ortegas, Hoffman (and his "robots"), Nellie (and friends - I don't like the reporters vibe) and McMourning.

Also, which models from the starter box are witch hunters?

Dr Grimwell, Nurse Hartsbane and the 2 orderlies are all witch hunters. 

brutal Effigy is pretty go with most guild masters, Sonnia can heal and draw quite a few cards with his support most turns. 

Death Marshals always offer a threat, if only because they can remove a model from the board for several turns. Judge can really pump up himself or other models. (12 attacks from the judge is possible in 1 turn, which if he is boosted by Debt to the guild makes a mess of just about everything.