Countering McCabe + Yasunori

[Ludvig]

@Corn When you're in the box the marshal isn't trying to attack it's just doing an opposed willpower duel so no negatives for the marshal to keep it in the box. The Wp of the marshal matches Yasinori, too bad that Perdita's wp boost + marry trick doesn't work in a Lucius list. I would suggest two marshals kept so that the Yasinor i can't kill them both.

As soon as you give the strangemetal shirt away the aura goes away to prevent wastrels tossing it around the whole crew. Armour three on an entire crew would be funny enough though  

 

Oh btw: If the Yasinori forces a minion to attack Lucius and another minion throws itself in the way of that attack through surprisingly loyal I would say the Lucius player just won at Malifaux  

[spooky_squirrel]

22 hours ago, AK1979 said:

True you can not block the Yasunori, but you can block the other models, so it will have to jump in unsupported.

Franc might be a good option to have nearby , not many models can take  that beating + we will lure the Yasunori to go after him

If you're setting up a piece trade, make sure you come out ahead on position. Canny opponents know that the Yasunori will get focused down and killed as soon as it is committed. It's a cruise missile that's going to have a specific target (or job). This means they're not planning on it being there after its attack run. The biggest thing that blocking out other models will do is make it harder for McCabe to recover any upgrades he's pitched to it--so it could help for the scenario where it gets all the toys and pushes from McCabe and Emissary. It's also important to remember that on the key turn that it attacks in, it's popping Recalled Training, which will help it defensively as well.

If I send Yasunori out in the same way I've sent Howard Langston out (do as much damage as possible before dying), being on positives defensively means little-to-no stress on my hand, and potentially greater AP strain on the things attacking them. It's a win-win for me, because I've already written it off as dead.

 

As mentioned early in the thread: Yasunori and Emissary eat up about half of my available hiring pool (regardless of master). If I'm also picking up quality minions (not just hounds), my activation count will be very low. If I'm playing McCabe and I decide to spend my four guardsman slots on 4 hounds, sure, that gets me to a total of 7 activations with enough stones left over for a single quality hire (cheap henchman maybe)--but those hounds might not get all the work done that I need to get done unless I can keep you focused on the Yasunori and Emissary. If I choose things other than hounds, I'm looking at having 6 activating models in Turn 1. If you put something into the Yasunori that can face-tank it for a turn, that lets you put your beaters and shooters into my crew and work on scoring your own points, quickly cutting down the things I need to keep alive to actually score points. If I'm at 6-8 activations and 3 of them are tied up in a single trick, every slow/paralyze/into the box I suffer is a major hit to my ability to score on the strat/schemes.

[Ludvig]

McCabe himself is usually decent at running interference and tying up a whole crew. He should be able to get quite far turn 1 and definetly be in your crew causing trouble turn 2.

[hydranixx]

20 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I would suggest two marshals kept so that the Yasinor i can't kill them both.

Yasunori can neatly kill two Death Marshals per activation with his minimum damage as long as he hits the his trigger twice, which isn't difficult since each trigger works with either of 2 suits and he can stack his deck with his (0) before attacking. Even if you keep your Marshals some distance apart, if he is in fact given Fast and/or Nimble, he can kill a Marshal, then glide on over to the other, and kill him too. 

[Ludvig]

30 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

Yasunori can neatly kill two Death Marshals per activation with his minimum damage as long as he hits the his trigger twice, which isn't difficult since each trigger works with either of 2 suits and he can stack his deck with his (0) before attacking. Even if you keep your Marshals some distance apart, if he is in fact given Fast and/or Nimble, he can kill a Marshal, then glide on over to the other, and kill him too. 

The scenario has so far assumed it charged into you after nimbling since if it got closer than that you could probably kill or slow it. If it already starts engaged with one of them (and no other models to hold it in place when it tries that walk at df 5!) it changes the scenario quite a bit.

If it starts engaged with me I will probably elect to drop a debt to the guild and flurry with my peacekeeper.

[hydranixx]

Fair enough, I can agree with you there. We have been assuming Nimble and/or Fast are used to close the distance to Charge in the first place. If you keep the Marshals about 6" apart they should be relatively safe, unless the Yasunori is able to Charge either of them without using its Nimble or its third generic AP.

I'm still not convinced Marshals are a good choice, even with Lucius' . Counter attacking with Pine Box to put Yasunori away doesn't bring back the model, or two, or three, that Yasunori killed in the first place when it came in, and it doesn't deal with it in the long term; there's a very real threat that he's just going to come out of the Box next turn for another whirl.

[Ludvig]

Hoffman still sounds like the best bet to me. PK + debt, Langston + debt, emissary, fill out with cheap schemers. Wherever it goes a huge nimble construct with armour + 2, flurry and nimble pops up. 

[hydranixx]

Hoffman is a prudent call if you absolutely 100% know that Yasunori is coming and that McCabe is leading. If you aren't 100% sure though, there's so many builds that Thunders can bring to the table, that going Hoffman can be a very, very painful choice.

Peacekeeper neuters Yasunori really nicely, right up until Kang shows up with Hard Worker and 2 hits your Peacekeeper haha. Admittedly most people would not hire Kang when they're against a Guild player they don't know, but if Hoffman is your go-to counter, then he becomes a feasible counter to your counter .

That's the beauty of Malifaux though, everything has a place, and the mindgames are infinite!  

[Corn]

Just throwing more random things out there

Exorcist- especially with Plastic Surgery McMourning, can potentially slow down Yasu significantly, 

McMourning has 3  undead, and the Exorcist has 3  No Triggers.  If you can keep your key models in those bubbles, you are still going to take a massive punch in the face, but at least you only have to account for 2-3 attacks as opposed to 4-5 attacks.  It may be worth it to go spend crazy and pick up a lead lined coat for the Exorcist, because if Yasu kills him too easily he'll have the triggers for his remaining attacks- with Lead Lined coat the Exorcist can survive 3 minimum damage hits from Yasunori, and Hard to Wound cancel's the  to damage from Recalled Training.

The Nurse can give some armour, the negative effect can be removed by a witchling, and the Nurse is significantly less of an obey hazard if it strolls into the No Trigger's Aura.  Nurse's are also Guarenteed to survive a single hit from Yasunori, and can Hands off to run away, so if he tries to pick one off throw any mask at it.

[Nikodemus]

6 hours ago, ringsnake said:

Guild McMourning with Nurses? Or does 10T have a condition removal trick to get rid of medication effects?

In terms of who can keep up with Yasunori, odds are Chiaki with her incorporeal walk 5+10'' range on her condition removal. I don't know if this kind of list wants to spend stones on condition removal but she's only 6 stones, 7 with personal upgrade.

[Ludvig]

No triggers for undead is a 3" aura, McMourning making it undead is also 3" I believe. I'm not sure you realize how small that overlap is. The Yasinori could charge either model and land on the opposite direction from where the other one is stading and it would be able to declare triggers while hitting one of those models even granting the aura if it strikes from exactly 2" away

Kang is scary but not that fast? Even if they push him I don't blieve they can companion to him? If he can threaten you I think one of the two big guys could thresten him right back and go before he went. The emissary with automatic decapitations or the peacekeeper with min damage five or six, both with ml 7 and fast should take care of Kang.

Or use the non-constructs in thr list as shields

I'm not trying to say it's risk freebut I,doubt it's worse than Viks. If you play Hoffman you need to be prepared for anti-armour lists since guild is known as one of the armoured factions fpr a lot of players.

[Corn]

6 hours ago, Ludvig said:

No triggers for undead is a 3" aura, McMourning making it undead is also 3" I believe. I'm not sure you realize how small that overlap is. The Yasinori could charge either model and land on the opposite direction from where the other one is stading and it would be able to declare triggers while hitting one of those models even granting the aura if it strikes from exactly 2" away

This is true.  However this greatly limits Yasu's access to McMourning, and the big bird is limited by his own 50 mm base.  If you can block where he has to land to avoid the overlapping auras, like say a field reporter, or a nurse who can hands off away, or terrain where he just cannot put his huge base.

The fact that Malifaux Bases are 1.18 inches across does make overlapping auras a bit less powerful, but he does have to be very precise with where he lands, basically directly across from either the Exorcist or Doug.  You can use that to at least limit the targets he can effectively go for.  If Yasunori murders one 5-6 stone model and leaves himself open to counter attack you may just come out ahead.

Putting up a big, "no fly zone" can also make Yasu a bit more predictable with where he will land

[Swordkitten]

Edited as I must have missed a page...

Mostly I deal with Yasunori with Rg 3 and higher engagements so he always has to waste AP walking in to hit.  Take Hans as a Merc and use 'Smile....' to shoot the Recalled Training off, or the Badge of Speed if he's far enough away for it to be permanently lost.  The 50mm base is a struggle for getting past terrain, so it should be possible to sit Queeg in the right place to generate engagement as he gets past the blockage, without Yasu being able to hit.

Maybe a Mounted Guard to give everyone +Df, or Nellie to push him away the moment one attack misses?

[Myyrä]

Perdita can kill Yasunori to its deployment. She can also take a charge from it with a very low chance of dying.

Why do we need a topic about this?

[Ludvig]

3 hours ago, Myyrä said:

Perdita can kill Yasunori to its deployment. She can also take a charge from it with a very low chance of dying.

Why do we need a topic about this?

We don't need topics about anything. This place is dedicated to an insanely pointless activity made for enjoyment. I would suppose we all enjoy posting here  (not everyone plays Perdita either, help the Lucius players out qith your wisdom)

[Myyrä]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

We don't need topics about anything. This place is dedicated to an insanely pointless activity made for enjoyment. I would suppose we all enjoy posting here  (not everyone plays Perdita either, help the Lucius players out qith your wisdom)

The easiest way would be to not play Lucius in the first place, but I suppose that isn't what you wanted to hear.

There isn't any real way of checking Yasunori without suffering some losses with Lucius. With stubborn and threat range that big, the best you can hope for is mitigating damage. Slowing Yasunori with a Hunter or Peacekeeper is probably the easiest way to limit what he can reach. His Df is only 5 and he can't activate early, so it should be quite possible to use a Hunter to give him slow. The Hunter will likely die soon after but you will probably be able to limit your losses there on the first turn. Bring Doppelganger to grab the initiative on the next turn and you might be able to use Lucius or Scribe to put it on double negatives if it used recalled training on the first turn.

The real problem with any Lucius crew is the fact that there really isn't an effective way of killing something like Yasunori. Riflemen would do enough damage, but unfortunately the opponent will likely be able to handle them quite easily if he isn't deluded enough to think that Yasunori alone will be able to handle the whole opposing crew. That's the problem with playing Lucius really. It's near impossible to deal enough damage to kill high cost beaters.

If not using a master that can take Yasunori down (Perdita, McCabe, McMourning) Peacekeeper seems like the way to go. It won't be killed by Yasu and can revenge kill it. Should work reasonably well with even Lucius.

[Richard matthews]

I played against this on the weekend I had a lot of luck with Hamelin and sue admittedly I had 3 high rams so sues minimum 4 damage did well against it took it down to one wound but then obsidian  oni just kept healing it

[Ludvig]

58 minutes ago, Richard matthews said:

I played against this on the weekend I had a lot of luck with Hamelin and sue admittedly I had 3 high rams so sues minimum 4 damage did well against it took it down to one wound but then obsidian  oni just kept healing it

Holy shit, how do I hire Hamelin into guild?!

Hamelin could alao do some nasty stuff with obeying it to kill it's buddies perhaps?

[Treehouse]

 

I was going to suggest Hoffman, Toolkit and Large Arachnid. Give it plus on Armour, hope for tomes in your hand to reduce damage by another 2 and try.to block Yasu with it. 

But then, I have never played against Yasunori. The more I read about him, the more of a Warhamer40k vibe he gets (sorry). Basically, he is the new ,incredibly powerful model that you should/have to buy and if your opponent isn't especially prepared for it, he will fight a downhill battle. It also doesnt seem to need skill to work, just dont overextend it and you are good. So, basically just like 40k was. 

 

We have been discussing which master to take, or which models, if there is a Yasunori. But that basically means, what to bring if your opponent declares TT, just in case they bring one. 

 

I know, schemes etc. incluence it, and you often tailor your list against the faction your facing, but in case of.Yasunori, its just one model. 

Now I wish I had played a couple of games against him to have a better understanding of it. Just hope Wyrd doesnt go the road of power-model creep. 

[Richard matthews]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Holy shit, how do I hire Hamelin into guild?!

Hamelin could alao do some nasty stuff with obeying it to kill it's buddies perhaps?

lol I have just started using McCabe my first game with him later today might have to try this little golden nugget

[Myyrä]

3 hours ago, Treehouse said:

But then, I have never played against Yasunori. The more I read about him, the more of a Warhamer40k vibe he gets (sorry). Basically, he is the new ,incredibly powerful model that you should/have to buy and if your opponent isn't especially prepared for it, he will fight a downhill battle. It also doesnt seem to need skill to work, just dont overextend it and you are good. So, basically just like 40k was.

Yasunori isn't really more oppressive than Nekima or A&D for example. What might make him more difficult to deal with is the fact that he is in a faction with a lot of ways to boost his mobility, which isn't insignificant to begin with, but that usually also comes with a cost.

Yasunori isn't good at dealing with Armor, so anything with armor +2 or better is going to be very difficult for him to take down. Most Henchmen can also take a charge from him and live if you have the SS to spend. He also isn't impossible to kill, because armor +1 and 12 wounds only go so far, especially if he has charged away from his crew. Guild definitely has ways of bringing him down in a single activation or with two chained activations. Just don't leave any isolated valuable targets for him to charge, and you should be fine.

[Ludvig]

Half the henchmen and enforcers in the guild faction with debt on them can pobably bring it down in a single activation and it is 13ss without upgrades so that is soomething to consider. Hell, any standard McCabe list can sabre it to death with a basic minion like a warden or wastrel. It shouldn't get too close to LJ either I think. McMourning hands out armour ignore or nurse debuffs. Nellie can make a lot of models into pretty disgusting missiles to counter it too.

[Tris]

On 31.7.2017 at 11:51 AM, Ludvig said:

Holy shit, how do I hire Hamelin into guild?!

Hamelin could alao do some nasty stuff with obeying it to kill it's buddies perhaps?

If you want to invest a stone every time you do it, as he`s stubborn, then yeah, sure^^

[Clockwork_Fish]

Nellie, Phiona, Francisco and Sidir.  It's a powerful combo anyways, so you aren't losing anything if you take it just to beat Yasunori.  Fill the rest to taste.  Park Phiona in severe terrain for the Df buff, and run Frank and Sidir together for El Mayor.  Keep Nellie safely behind, but close enough to keep the others in range of Run From The Truth.  As long as you've got a 13 in hand, and assuming your opponent doesn't have a Red Joker, you can beat Yasunori's Ml 6 stat.  Even if he does go after Frank or Nellie, use Sidir for By Your Side and swap him in to take the hit.  Then drop an Evidence to boot Yasunori out of melee range.  Then next turn, make him into a paperweight.

[Ludvig]

@Clockwork_Fish playing Nellie is kind of like cheating. Nothing is hard for her