Countering McCabe + Yasunori

[Corn]

So lets talk a bit about countering and possible counters for the McCabe + Yasunori + Shadow Emissary Combo.  

@4thstringer ran into it a few times playing Neverborn Lucius, and in general the combo seems rediculously powerful and capable of leveling multiple models turn one.  For sake of convenience we'll assume the minimum list is as follows

Lucas McCabe- Badge of Speed, Glowing Saber, Promises

Yasunori- Recalled Training

Shadow Emissary- Conflux of Exploration

 

Thats really all he needs to really get the party started.  The rest of the list is really up to the McCabe player's taste.  Does he want a big minion like the dawn serpent to reactivate, or just fill up the list with Guild Hounds for straight activation control to really set up the alpha strike.

McCabe Take this!-  Badge of Speed : 4 inch push, Nimble

Emissary- Rite of Strength: 4 inch push + fast

Emissary- Take This- Elixer : 4 inch push, Regen +2

12 inches worth of pushes out of activation, before the Nimble Fast Yassunori releases on your lines.  Potentially popping recalled training for  to everything to really make that storm of attacks count.

If you know this is coming, what do you do to protect your key pieces, what builds can guild do to counter this, and what do you use to prevent your lines being run through?

 

 

[Gnomezilla]

Eh. I'm probably too busy launching my own pushed/walked, nimble fast positive attack (oo wait, double positive now potentially) beatstick to care much. Saves me advancing, at any rate.

But, as a confirmed turtle, I would probably (if I cared) delay and not advance until at least part of that sequence was finished. Maybe send one of the tougher little constructs forward to take part of the blow, if they didn't bring armor ignoring models.

[AK1979]

Sonia  + Child :

 

This allows you to put 2 flame walls up, with all those big footprints you can prevent him to access your models. 

Add an emissary of your own and  1 austringer for easy pickings without LOS.

 

 

 

 

[hydranixx]

Since it has Flight, there's essentially no way to "castle up" and prepare for it. You can't prevent it from running your lines through. It just flies over your Flame Walls. It's going to come in and any wipe just about anything out.

You have to pretend that it's a little like Reva. That is, accept that it's a murderer and accept that something's going to be killed by it, potentially more than one something, every turn that it's alive.

Wait for it to eat a model of yours, then hit it back, really hard, with all you have. Justice strikes me as being among the small number models that could take its Charge on the chin, then swing back and feasibly delete it, though she will probably need to burn Badge of Office and a few Soulstones for damage prevention and  on attack. 

Sadly, with Flight, WP6 and Stubborn, there's very few efficient ways to nullify or control it. Nellie could push and Slow it with Propaganda but she will need to use a SS or Focus first. If you have any options to hand out Slow or Paralyze against its Df, that's gold. Other than that, I do not like the prospect of Yasunori showing up when Frame for Murder's in the pool.

One thing in your favour is that with the Yasunori + Emissary's + Upgrades price tag, your opponent has already used 28ss before hiring anything else or add to his Cache, and he's also using much of those model's AP to boost Yasunori. It's hardly a cheap combo. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Yasunori Flies, so I'm not seeing what this accomplishes. Unless you are actively trying to keep you models in tight formation with terrain and Flame walls to prevent the base from being able to land anywhere, in which case the TT player just sends out their other models to get points while Yasunori essentially semi-perma-paralyzes your entire crew.

[AK1979]

True you can not block the Yasunori, but you can block the other models, so it will have to jump in unsupported.

 

Franc might be a good option to have nearby , not many models can take  that beating + we will lure the Yasunori to go after him

 

[AK1979]

Also note that flight can not  be used while being pushed, so if you put a wall in front of it , it will at least hinder it a lot.

[Fetid Strumpet]

If you're close enough to put a wall up to prevent an initial push, then it doesn't need to push to get to you.

[Ludvig]

Swamp the board in reporters and make that bastard work for it! 

A peacekeeper can just laugh off the attacks maybe? Then flurry it back. Langston too, if it spent some cards getting hits it can be susceptivble to autokill triggers.

[hydranixx]

Wk6 with Nimble and Flight alone accounts for any walls you were thinking of putting up. 

[Corn]

1 hour ago, AK1979 said:

Sonia  + Child :

This allows you to put 2 flame walls up, with all those big footprints you can prevent him to access your models. 

 

I think this thread does sell Criid and her Flame Walls a little short.  Yasu is a pretty big boy, all 50 mm bases are, and if your board has a healthy amount of terrain on it, you may be able to use those walls to block line of sight on one of those big 10 inch charges.  Yasu isn't Justice, he still needs to see his target to declare the charge.   You can't put the Wall too close to Yasu.  He'll just hop over it with Nimble, but you may be able to take some edge off by blocking LoS down the big charge lanes.  Of course depending on the table the walls may do next to nothing...

[Ludvig]

If you can't block all the lanes you can block the best landing spots with reporters. They can't be charged so they can protect the place where your squishy stuff is. Ryle or a peacekeeper can taunt it to overextend.

Acouple of hunters can block of large areas too, mounted guard are also big based for a relatively low stone cost. They should be able to threaten it at adecent range with something fast and hard hitting.

Emissary pooping out something hitty also seems like fun even if it gives Yasi a prime target.

[Corn]

@Gnomezilla

I agree with you Hoffman is definitely one of our strongest contenders vs Souped up Yassunori.   Peacekeeper especially seems natural to shove in Yasu's face, as Hard to Wound can counter Recalled Training, and Armour +2 means he only takes 1 wound from min damage hits.

Hoffman- On Site Assimilation, Field Mechanic, Arcanist Assets

Malifaux Child

Peacekeeper- Debt to the Guild

Brutal Emissary- Conflux of Amalgamation

Mobile Toolkit

---------------

Toolkit gives the Emissary more armour (Armour +2 will help loads surviving Yasu's onslaught), Child casts power loop on the Peacekeeper, Hoffman gives the Toolkit slow for fast and hooks the Emissary into the loop, Upgrades Emissary with Nimble with trigger to upgrade Peacekeeper with Targeting System, Machine Puppet Peacekeeper to focus with trigger for fast, Machine Puppet Emissary to bury peacekeeper with trigger for fast, Machine Puppet Emissary forwards, with optional trigger for 3 inch push, and tags along. (if you don't think you need the extra movement you can OSA the toolkit for more buffs, or swap the Child for the Attendant)

Brutal Emissary- Peace Keeper taxi- uses its now insane speed to stroll up to Yasunori.  6 inch walk with Nimble and Fast is no joke.  Dragging Hoffman along.  If you can get a clear shot 10 inches away in 3 walks, you can Tyranny of Order the Peacekeeper's harpoon to drag Yasu 8 inches and cancel its fast with slow.  If you have a spare tome you can set up a Cage for All to Heal the Peacekeeper when he activates.   Dropping off the Peacekeeper in melee with it.

If the Peacekeeper tries to survive with its def 6 and H2W and Armour +2.  Go nuts with Fast and Flurry, discarding Debt to the Guild and Targeting Systems for Min Damage 6 attacks

 

Add 4 guild hounds for activation control and try to beat the combo at its own game.

 

[Ludvig]

Every thread lately ends with me wanting to play Hoffman

[Gnomezilla]

Terrifying checks could help too.

17 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Every thread lately ends with me wanting to play Hoffman

That's what you get for listening to my blathering. 

My opponents seem to have little trouble dealing with a single beater of mine (I've been using Howard Langston for the other* and resilient he is not), maybe I should ask them.

*I did not. Always chose to slingshot him upfield for a turn 1 alpha strike instead and lost him on 2 before I could bury him again.**

**You have to feel for Lady J though. With Hank snapping his claws in her face, she discarded three Expert Sleuths...and flipped so poorly she still was losing initiative by 1. She spent a stone--and flipped a 13. There ain't no kill like overkill.

[admiralvorkraft]

Lucius+Death Marshal+Activation Control

But that's just my answer to alpha strikes generally. It's a bit card intensive, but who cares?

Other options; Hunters can Slow and engage it before it activates (they will die in return, but then it's not charging whatever you wanted to keep alive), Lawyers can slap it with Paralyzed, Reporters can make charging annoying, and Abuela can make it impossible (bonus points if you can sink a Focused shotgun slug into the thing before it Nimbles over and cuts her head off). Tannen can blunt the impact a bit with his Cooler aura, especially if you've shredded their hand a bit with an Austringer. A double defensive Guardian should be able to face tank it, might even survive if you get lucky.

Basically, it will kill something. Make sure that you are the one who is picking what it kills.

[Ludvig]

I could play a purist Hoffman with what I have. Would only need to paint the man himself which seems reasonable. 

[Ludvig]

@admiralvorkraft The hunter would need someone pushing it since the Yasinori has a longer threat range than the hunter but it should be a reasonable plan. The threat of it may force your opponent to charge in prematurely which is good enough for us. I would gladly trade a hunter for a Yasinori  

[admiralvorkraft]

If Yasinori is 12" up the board (nothing that is pushing her around has Accomplice unless I'm missing something) and I deployed on the 6" line it shouldn't be hard to walk, shoot, drag... Hunters have a 15" threat range after all and if they're centrally deployed it isn't easy to avoid getting in that bubble - it's most of the table.

[Ludvig]

15 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

If Yasinori is 12" up the board (nothing that is pushing her around has Accomplice unless I'm missing something) and I deployed on the 6" line it shouldn't be hard to walk, shoot, drag... Hunters have a 15" threat range after all and if they're centrally deployed it isn't easy to avoid getting in that bubble - it's most of the table.

But the Yasinori has a threat of 18" to 24" depending on if you made it fast too or just nimble. 

[ringsnake]

OK, let's make a few ground assumptions:

1. No matter how much terrain is on the board, you're not going to stop it from reaching out and touching you on Turn 2 at the latest. 12" of pushes, Flight, Nimble, Fast, and it's own massive charge distance and reach have it whipping 24" or so across the board. Possibly even charging, killing stuff, and then using the additional from Fast to walk 6" back.

2. I don't see any mention of chain activation tricks, so am I right in assuming that the McCabe activates and shoves it 4" closer to you, then Emmisary activates and shoves it another 8" closer, and only after that does the Yusi activate. So you get 2+ activations of your own to prepare.

3. It does a monstrous amount of damage, and can take out multiples of average minions, or even one or more enforcers/henchmen/master. Can also make you burn your hand and SS, and still wind up losing a master.

4. It can force one of your minions to make an attack action, and adds a Ram trigger that causes up to +3 damage. Major suck for Guild, which has that baked into lots of attacks.

5. McCabe is just the popular choice of the moment, but the other 10T masters have similar push tricks, so this is really about Yusi+Emmisary

6. As it is WP:6 and Stubborn, sneaky tricks involving WP duels aren't going to work. Attempts to push or move or inflict conditions will drain your hand at best.

7. It looks like the only reliable recourse for taking it down is to pound on it, a lot, but it can prioritize and jump hitters that are threat before they can take it down.

Lucius with a faster crew and a lot of terrain on the board might be well equipped to handle this. If his crew are fast enough, he can use out of activation moves on his minions, guardsmen, and mimics to get them into cover after the shoves by the Shadow Emissary and master. Not that insisting on a table covered in buildings and similar 5ht+ obstructions won't be obvious. Are Flight models immune to disengaging strikes?

Queeg + Pathfinder and Traps? Yusi needs a 7+ to get away from traps, and queeg can give extra 6" moves on the traps. Seems like another good combo for Lucius. Especially since you can give an extra activation to the Pathfinder off Lucius for an attack that ignores armor. Though for sure the Yusi is going to put priority on killing the Pathfinder, and your opponent will have other models for taking down the traps. I've already seen this mentioned as a good combo with Lucius multiples of times already.

Guild McMourning with Nurses? Or does 10T have a condition removal trick to get rid of medication effects? Though giving your opponent access to Massive Dose with the syringe attack sounds like a bad plan.

Lucius can now Commanding Presence Nurse Heartsbane, and you can also give her bonus moves with McMourning. You might be able to get the drop on the Yusi with "Right behind you dear..." and commit Heartsbane to stuffing it into a straightjacket for the rest of the game. This also can be used to get the drop and out alpha with Grimwell, and just saw his damned head off.

Mirror match? Use McCabe yourself to fling unimpeded Peacekeepers at your opponent? Make your opponent eat his own tricks until everybody's sick of him?

[Ludvig]

12 minutes ago, ringsnake said:

 

4. It can force one of your minions to make an attack action, and adds a Ram trigger that causes up to +3 damage. Major suck for Guild, which has that baked into lots of attacks.

 

Trolololol!  I hadn't even worked out that this could target MY models... What the fucking hell... This model...

[Ludvig]

Flying doesn't affect disengaging strikes so a few traps placed at positions where it will be before it wants to charge could be helpful actually.

 

Lucius gives nearby minions a  to their  attacks so with him you could spam death marshals and hope for the best with Ca 5 against Wp 6. I'd wager the gaziliion attacks it can make will drain the opposing hand so you might get to box it.

[Corn]

I love Death Marshals- especially with Lucius, but I feel that Pine Box will have trouble vs Yasunori.  Yasu has higher WP than their cast and on recalled training turn a  flip to defend.   Don't count on their hand being terribly drained either.  Recalled training giving Yasu  to hit on ml6 means he probably won't be needing to cheat often... but you will.  The other big issue with the Box is that you will be at  to keep Yasu in there at the begining of the Marshal's next activation, so it'll probably escape and you have to wrestle it back in again, focusing if you are far away from Lucius.  Add that to the fact that Yasu can annihilate a death marshal without breaking a sweat and its a tough sell on counter.

Nellie seems like she can do well with Field Reporters and Embedded Ronin sporting disguised, and Phiona able to set up LoS blocking terrain to further impede charge lanes and LoS.  As long as Yasu is walking into combats and not charging you might live a bit longer.

 

McCabe can also set up a large part of his crew to straight up tank Yasunori.  Toss Strange Metal Shirt to a Minion, and give it reactivate.  Minion (0) to give everybody armour, Reactivates and (0) again, and Queeg strolls by and intimidates it into another (0).  Armour +3 on everybody in a big 4 inch .  Armour +3 means Yasu needs a severe to do more than 1 damage- and whether your opponent wants to throw that King for 2 damage is another question. EDIT: CANNOT REACTIVATE COMPANION TO YOURSELF.  Advance your Armoured  up the board, and say "come at me bro". Hilariously in later turns you can get up to +4 by bubbling once, activating McCabe, reactivating and giving the shirt to a different minion then laugh when your opponent cuts through your armour +4 crew with something that ignores armour...   

 

@Cadaverousbirth ah I missed that FAQ, still you can just have Queeg stroll by first, then companion into the rifleman or hound.  That still gets you two quick (0) actions granting armour before the opponent can retaliate.

[Cadaverousbirth]

4 minutes ago, Corn said:

 If you need to enhance the bubble even quicker remember that a Guild Hound or Rifleman can companion to himself, for quick successive (0) actions.  Advance your Armoured  up the board, and say "come at me bro"

The Reactivating Companioning yourself trick was FAQ'd to not work anymore.