Legal Rammifications: Guild Lawyer Tactica

[Masquer]

"Always listen to your lawyer!"

I find the streets of Malifaux harbor all sorts of dangers, not the least of which is ignorance of the great many, and varied, laws that hold our marvelous society together. And even older laws that bind together and shape the fabric of reality itself. My friends, don't let yourselves be caught unawares of the multitude of loopholes and penalties resulting from these venerable laws, and how you can leverage them to your benefit, and your adversary's woe! Fortunately for any goodstanding member of the Guild, such as yourself, I'm sure, the Govenor's Secretary, the august Lucius Mattheson, has made available the professional talents of the Guild's own legal department! Let me enumerate the ways by which these paragons of justice will serve your, and the Guild's, interests.

Front

There are some choice models that can be taken for 6ss, but having a Lawyer, maybe two if you're hard up against Horror Duels, is worth considering. Stat-wise, the Guild Lawyer's 6 Df, Wp, Wd, and Cg, with a Wk of 5 is more than adequate for his role in support and control, as he tends to be near or in the thick of things.

Highest Authority gives that Df/Wp of 6 extra padding, should you need it. An important part of the Guild Lawyer's tactics is finding the right spot to die, so the  to attack actions will help get him to his final resting place.

Speaking of dying, Finish the Job may at first seem like a door prize, but you pay the points for it, so on or near the "last turn" make sure the Lawyer finds a good place to rest his head. It won't be hard, once the Lawyer starts manipulating the game, opponents generally don't sit idly by.

Reminder of a Worse Fate rounds out his abilities, and makes him essential to a Lucius crew that relies on Commanding Presence, and to anyone who faces Horror Duels often in their meta. 

Back

Objection!!! swings at Ca 6, and is a great way for punishing enemy models that come into reach of whatever the Lawyer is escorting. Focusing beforehand, or charging, has a good chance of putting Slow, or Paralyze, on the defendant. It's my opinion that the trigger for +2 poison is a nice bonus, but not essential to his action's intended effect.

Special Damages also swings for Ca 6, and works for punishing non-leader beaters for doing their jobs (like murder the models the Lawyer is escorting, or the Lawyer himself), or setting up a model with Black Blood to bleed all over the place (most useful with Guild Lucius/Mr. Graves, NB Lucius, and Resser McMourning). I generally only use the first tactic, but others have enjoyed both in beater heavy crews. Again, I feel the trigger is just a bonus.

Impassioned Defense gives HtW, and on the trigger lets you do it again. It's a wonderful 0 action that goes off on a 6+, but you'll want to throw in a moderate  if you're in the thick of it. 

Opinion

For 6ss I believe that the Guild Lawyer is very well costed for it's points, and should be taken for its support capabilities alone, though Special Damages and Objection!!! are a lot of fun (on the sending end anyway). Obviously, the Guild Lawyer shines in a Lucius led crew, but any crew can find use for him, if only to protect a more important model. In these grim times, it's important to have the proper legal counsel.

-Will update in response to feedback-

 

 

[4thstringer]

I am not sure I agree that they are well costed.   But I think you nailed just about the rest with them. 

Ive used them to give killjoy special damages,  But I'm not sure I need it. 

[Ludvig]

Great that you did this, big thanks! 

I still don't see their greatness I'm afraid but I like disagreeing, it means more variation in the game.

 

[Masquer]

2 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

I am not sure I agree that they are well costed.   But I think you nailed just about the rest with them. 

Ive used them to give killjoy special damages,  But I'm not sure I need it. 

I think they would be overpowered at 5ss, unless their Ca was reduced, but I'd hate that.

I don't much go in for Black Blood, mostly just tolerate it.

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Great that you did this, big thanks! 

I still don't see their greatness I'm afraid but I like disagreeing, it means more variation in the game.

 

You're Welcome! 

Nothing wrong with that!

[tactician]

Masterfully done, Masquer!

I see opportunity for discussion on the following topics:

• synergy with models other than Lucius
• fielding one vs. fielding two
• scheme-running potential
• early- and late-game application

[4thstringer]

I'm not sure they would be overpowered at 5.  But it is hard to measure because they clearly aren't a model you would spam. 

My less skilled  opponents hate them for fees, but for a skilled opponentz?

[Cadaverousbirth]

Playing one of these guys tonight because of this topic. I've never seen a reason for them before, but being an annoying support model who dies have gives me a scheme marker? I'll give it a shot. He takes the spot of a second Austringer or Death Marshall who both do arguably better things, but maybe he can pull his weight.

[Gnomezilla]

Guild slows with a hunter for an attack, not a moderate damage card, so (fun though it may be) I consider "OBJECTION!!!" not to exist. Special Damages/fees is the lawyer's shtick.

But when is it useful to only do 1 damage per AP of yours, and then apply 1 per AP of theirs? I had to learn that from Neverborn general theory of maximizing misery/black blood damage. A black blood dealer will take 2 damage from Fees per AP if hitting and bleeding upon a single target, more for multiple, etc. Since there has been an uptick in black blood shaman sightings lately locally, I may try taking the lawyer to dump fees on the shaman's target. Or something which drops blasts (1 damage per model touched) and annoys the clockwork out of me...Less useful against Outcast Lazarus with the fast/focus keeping him out of range (14" vs. 12"), I'm sure. Beyond that there's the usual value against those who bring multiple attacks per AP...oh no, my precious swarms!

Who gets credited with Fees kills--the lawyer, the model with the condition upon it, or 'natural causes'?

What's the maximum threat range of new Lucius prodding a single keyword target (as a mimic is) on his own turn for uninterruptible legal harassment? The innate pushes change the threat range even without provoking a walk.

Is there enough value in placing hard to wound upon a riposting model to hire a lawyer as a buffer alone? Has general thought on stacking hard to wound up to 2 changed since I last looked at reviews of Toshiro the Daimyo, given that positive damage flips seem much easier to come by than they did awhile ago (Papabox cuddle notwithstanding)?

I feel a lawyer is not overcosted at 6ss but that debuffing/buffing just isn't worth that much in the game as it stands. Either you need a lawyer to counter a specific nuisance, or you don't--cost just changes what models you're hiring instead.

[Ludvig]

Conditions are natural cause so it could be helpful if it's Howard with frame on him or something.

Lucius commands mimics and guardsmen within 14" + the 3" push and 1" base so 30" total in a perfect storm situation.

For a model with Riposte I would imagine that double defensive of a guardian would be better since you need to actually beat your opponent and get the right suit. I also think the guardian lasts longer (unless you invest heavy resouces into the lawyers discard effect). Maybe they combo nicely with the scales of justice since you would guarantee to be at less cards than your opponent so you can use that sweet card draw  If guild had an easier time of drawing cards I would like lawyers more.

I won't poop on the lawyer's parade but I feel it has steep competition, especially from nurses at a stone less for McMourning.

[trikk]

3 hours ago, Gnomezilla said:

Guild slows with a hunter for an attack, not a moderate damage card, so (fun though it may be) I consider "OBJECTION!!!" not to exist. Special Damages/fees is the lawyer's shtick.

But when is it useful to only do 1 damage per AP of yours, and then apply 1 per AP of theirs? I had to learn that from Neverborn general theory of maximizing misery/black blood damage. A black blood dealer will take 2 damage from Fees per AP if hitting and bleeding upon a single target, more for multiple, etc. Since there has been an uptick in black blood shaman sightings lately locally, I may try taking the lawyer to dump fees on the shaman's target. Or something which drops blasts (1 damage per model touched) and annoys the clockwork out of me...Less useful against Outcast Lazarus with the fast/focus keeping him out of range (14" vs. 12"), I'm sure. Beyond that there's the usual value against those who bring multiple attacks per AP...oh no, my precious swarms!

Who gets credited with Fees kills--the lawyer, the model with the condition upon it, or 'natural causes'?

What's the maximum threat range of new Lucius prodding a single keyword target (as a mimic is) on his own turn for uninterruptible legal harassment? The innate pushes change the threat range even without provoking a walk.

Is there enough value in placing hard to wound upon a riposting model to hire a lawyer as a buffer alone? Has general thought on stacking hard to wound up to 2 changed since I last looked at reviews of Toshiro the Daimyo, given that positive damage flips seem much easier to come by than they did awhile ago (Papabox cuddle notwithstanding)?

I feel a lawyer is not overcosted at 6ss but that debuffing/buffing just isn't worth that much in the game as it stands. Either you need a lawyer to counter a specific nuisance, or you don't--cost just changes what models you're hiring instead.

First off. I don`t see how blood blood dealer will get 2 damage. If they hurt them and they bleed on you they don`t trigger fees.

If they die from Fees its condition death. 

Lucius can Commanding Presence for 5", then Obey for 3" push + 5" walk, then the Lawyer can walk 5" and cast the Fees action.

 

I actually think if I would take them, its for the attack and HtW giving. If you have some forms of Obeys or extra movement, a focus + hit from a Ca6 attack has a large chance of paralyzing most masters.

 

I don`t think that they are great and I don`t think they would be an autotake at 5SS as they don`t really have a clear role. They have some support, some debuffing but are neither overall good (like for example Frank) nor have a specific niche that makes them shine (like stalkers with Dispel Magic)

 

[admiralvorkraft]

A damage dealing attack that targets Wp is super valuable in Guild just because we have so few of them. Even if it's just 2/2/2 it's good to have some way to punish the Ototo's of the world. And yes, we have Death Marshals, but I'll often bring one of each.

[4thstringer]

Which factions do you like lawyers into?   And do you play them as front line or midline.   Do you think they are more or less useful in gg2017 vs core book schemes and strats?

[Cadaverousbirth]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

I actually think if I would take them, its for the attack and HtW giving. If you have some forms of Obeys or extra movement, a focus + hit from a Ca6 attack has a large chance of paralyzing most masters.

Lucius can Issue Command, get the focus trigger, and get that Paralyzed relatively easily with a severe in hand, right? *schemey hand rubbing*

[trikk]

Yes. You can also use Abuela, Judge, McCabe pushes or Badge of Speed

[Cadaverousbirth]

Bah, just re-read the card again. Relying on him still being alive within 1" of anything worthwhile to get the Paralyzed isn't very reliable. Great when the stars align but he's probably going to get punked quickly. Highest Authority might help but I'd need the bad cards in hand to do it...hmmm needs some more doing and less thinking.

[trikk]

He has Highest Authority, 6Df, 6 Wds and can potentially Hard to Wound himself. Frank is also an option.

[4thstringer]

Ive definitely never considered using frank on a lawyer.  I think I accidently did once just because he was the only option close enough though.

[trikk]

If I had a very good option of Paralyzing an enemy master, I would gladly do it.

[Ludvig]

5 minutes ago, trikk said:

If I had a very good option of Paralyzing an enemy master, I would gladly do it.

Play McMourning and bring nurses? The problem with lawyers attacking a soulstone user is that any competent opponent will stone to give you a negative on the damage if you try this against their master. I guess turn 4 or something when the caches are dry.

[trikk]

Get severe on  man. Thats how you win games

[admiralvorkraft]

I'll happily focus-swing with a cheap model to get my opponent to stone, and short of Guardians the Lawyers are probably our most durable minions. I like them on the frontline, being annoying to shift and just dangerous enough to pull focus from the things that really matter.

[Ludvig]

8 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I'll happily focus-swing with a cheap model to get my opponent to stone, and short of Guardians the Lawyers are probably our most durable minions. I like them on the frontline, being annoying to shift and just dangerous enough to pull focus from the things that really matter.

I'd also happily do it with a cheap model, do you know one  Four and less is cheap, for six soulstones I'm starting to expect things.

I will try to open my mind a bit about lawyers, I want to like them. Any tips on how to use them with McMourning specifically?

[admiralvorkraft]

I don't care for them with McMourning. They're great for Lucius or as roadblocks in a Sonia crew. They probably aren't bad with Nellie either.

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, admiralvorkraft said:

I don't care for them with McMourning. They're great for Lucius or as roadblocks in a Sonia crew. They probably aren't bad with Nellie either.

After my 14 months of only playing pre-errata Lucius in all my games I'm sort of burned out on him.  I do want to try lawyers (and now Santiago with him thanks to you, you bastard! )

[Corn]

I've used a lawyer fairly extensively, and to be perfectly honest he has always done fairly well.  You are going to get the most out of the Lawyer in a crew with Lucius, where self inflicted horror duels are pretty common and his bubble is nice, but the bubble is also obviously helpful in crews with Master Queeg, or against certain opposing crew builds.  It would be more universally applicable if it was a straight  to all will power duels like the Guard Sergeant's bubble, but it at least helps more than just Guardsmen.  The main issue with Lawyers is that abilities to remove status ailments are somewhat common, and they all seriously hamper the lawyers efforts.

OBJECTION!!! is a good attack.  Don't get me wrong.  At the end of the day its a min damage 2  CA action, with some good control if you get lucky.  I very rarely count on getting better than Min damage unless I am investing resources into the attack, and its a pretty decent attack no matter what.   The thing with Objection is that if the lawyer finds himself in the right place and the right time he *can* invest resources into turning his attack into a debilitating status ailment.  That can have a powerful effect on your opponent, and make the lawyer a much bigger threat than he would otherwise appear.  However, if you are taking him for his control abilities alone he will almost always be passed over by a Performer (or another Nurse in McMourning).  

Fees.  I've gotten less use out of this attack than Objection honestly.  I find the lawyer mostly a support oriented combat piece who wants to be stuck in the thick of it supporting models in combat with horror duels and threatening foes with debilitating status ailments.  Fees can be a decent deterrent on a melee beater, especially if you can stack several levels on an unarmored foe, or slip some poison on there as an added side effect.  The main problem with it in the grand scheme of things its not that bad of a status ailment, and you probably don't want that nasty beat stick whaling on you regardless of if its taking damage for doing so.  I haven't used it on Graves, so I cannot comment on using it to pulse black blood on opposing models in combat, but I haven't been overly impressed with it as a debuff overall.

The 0 action isn't bad either, although I am not as sold on H2W over some other abilities.  Its very powerful against some models, especially ones with big drop offs between moderate and weak, and it can help offset some built in  flips here or there, but usually I feel like it brings less utility than the Guardians Defensive  in terms of resisting damage.  I really dislike buffs that end at the end of the turn.  This ability would be far better if it lasted until the lawyers next activation or is removed from play.  The problem with it now is that you need to activate the lawyer early to get any use out of it, and it doesn't help you at all if you lose initiative.  

 

The biggest problem for my Lawyer is that he often finds himself competing with a Performer for the same 6ss slot.  The Performer has a better control game with seduction and siren's call, and the Performer supports poison McMourning a bit better with Poison +2 built into her close combat attacks.  He faces the same competition in a Lucius crew where the Performer can benefit from all of Lucius' abilities as a minion, can throw a high crow for paralyze, and can blow up scheme markers which Lucius' crew is competent at placing to debuff enemy models- this is compounded by the upgrade to Lucius' own Elite Training and a lowered TN on Commanding Presence making the lawyers bubble less necessary overall.

What the Lawyer is, and what he excels at, in my opinion is supporting a melee focused crew.  Between Highest Authority and above average defensive stats overall, the Lawyer can be really hard to put down.  While his control game is straight weaker than a Nurse or Performer, he is a far sturdier platform than those.  Emphasizing his role as a front lines support piece who drops a scheme marker when he dies.  He is at his best when he can help front line melee models deal with horror checks- especially self inflicted ones.  He is at his best vs crews with poor native condition removal, or make heavy use of horror duels, and he isn't bad as a scheme runner in a pinch (if a bit slow)- he does have defensive abilities which give other scheme runners a huge headache, and finish the job.