Kirai...looks like a pain

[Kobayashi]

3 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

Sure about that? Wong's Glowy can't be placed on the Pigapult as it is a Peon. This was to prevent it from being absolutely ridiculous, and during play testing it definitely was.

Already followed the rule of:

"That sounds to good to be true"; stormed of to the books and saw this rule confirmed. Amended accordingly. Believe me if that hadn't be that case, I would have skipped Asami's Crew for a Pigapult.

[Omenbringer]

Just now, Blacks85 said:

How you'd get max from pigapult? would you surround and feed with stuffed piglets? 

Isn't too much expensive being like 8+2+2+2+2 = 16 SS or what mechanics do you use to keep it shooting?

I've always wondered...never used it yet.

I use Lenny, Piglet, Skeeter, and a Slop Hauler (Staples of my Som'er Pigapult crew anyway). Skeeter provides the required suit for Lenny's trigger. Lenny attacks the Pigapult which either relents the attack increasing the odds of drawing the weak damage or simply cheats in the weak damage to summon the Piglet. Even on severe damage the Pigapult only takes 1 damage because of its Armor +5. Slop Hauler heals it back up.

I don't use Stuffed Pigs as they come with a lot of downsides and only provide a small boost though against Kirai they might be offset (because of both the rounded damage and also the blasts in a crew that likes to cluster). This method of summoning Piglets will feed the Pigapult consistently and keep it functioning at high efficiency, particularly when Som'er is Encouraging it also. 3 Attacks at range 24 that ignores LOS and Cover with a Sh of 6 with a on the attack flip and against Manipulative makes for a fearsome Kirai slayer.

[daniello_s]

1 hour ago, Mason said:

With Wong's casting attacks, blast and pulse damage, and ability to teleport out of melee, he's a good choice for taking on Kirai.

Unless she summons Ikiryo after the first shot to negate Wong another attacks on her. I experienced this many times when I was running my Levi against her.

[Blacks85]

56 minutes ago, Omenbringer said:

I use Lenny, Piglet, Skeeter, and a Slop Hauler (Staples of my Som'er Pigapult crew anyway).

Thanks for the hint.

Indeed a good team and definitively a huge potential for the pult.

But does it worth all those SS ? Are you usually happy about what it can do?

Because you're investing 60% of your SS there, pretty insane!!

p.s. why the piglet?

[Omenbringer]

You can still base block Wong to prevent the Ikiryo Summoning. For a 30mm base it only takes 3 more 30mm bases placed triangularly around him in base contact to prevent the Ikiryo from being able to be placed in Base Contact. If you can't place it in base contact then it can't be summoned (page 51).

[Omenbringer]

3 minutes ago, Blacks85 said:

Thanks for the hint.

Indeed a good team and definitively a huge potential for the pult.

But does it worth all those SS ? Are you usually happy about what it can do?

Because you're investing 60% of your SS there, pretty insane!!

I generally use Som'er in his summon factory build so the points investment is negligible but yes it is often worth it (I would really encourage you to try it out though). It still leaves 21 points (considering I have Som'er with both Encouragement and Family Tree) to build the rest of the crew, or 3 Bayou Gremlins and 3 Piglets. This build can summon another 1-3 Bayou Gremlins and 1-2 Piglets per turn with Som'er providing the required Suits.

[Mason]

43 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Unless she summons Ikiryo after the first shot to negate Wong another attacks on her. I experienced this many times when I was running my Levi against her.

Hit the Ikiryo with his fan, use the Poof! Trigger to teleport away, and then use the last AP to blast something again.

[Math Mathonwy]

4 hours ago, Blacks85 said:

Yeah, that's the team I've played yesterday but with Ophelia, I feel is more effective when you have to do pure DMG !! Strategy was headhunter so not really need to summon around.

It worked out, but I feel that playing Kirai better would have destroyed me..that's why I'm searching for tips

Ophelia does better single damage but Somer supports his crew better and his Bigger Hat and Blasts are both phenomenal against Kirai and Summoners in general. His lower Sh isn't as big a drawback since Resser Df values tend to be lower.

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, Omenbringer said:

You can still base block Wong to prevent the Ikiryo Summoning. For a 30mm base it only takes 3 more 30mm bases placed triangularly around him in base contact to prevent the Ikiryo from being able to be placed in Base Contact. If you can't place it in base contact then it can't be summoned (page 51).

How well does that work? I've never tried it so an honest question but doesn't that make Wong immovable? Or am I missing something here (very likely!)?

[Omenbringer]

Base blocking works out very well for preventing a lot of summoning shenanigans like the Ikiryo, Kill Joy, Bete Noir, and others. It is another potent tool that is often under utilized. It will limit mobility a bit but Gremlin's aren't exactly hurting for ways to enhance mobility (pig ladders and truffle shuffles). Against the Ikiryo it is particularly useful since that summons occurs next to the attacking model.

[Math Mathonwy]

5 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Base blocking works out very well for preventing a lot of summoning shenanigans like the Ikiryo, Kill Joy, Bete Noir, and others. It is another potent tool that is often under utilized. It will limit mobility a bit but Gremlin's aren't exactly hurting for ways to enhance mobility (pig ladders and truffle shuffles). Against the Ikiryo it is particularly useful since that summons occurs next to the attacking model.

Yeah, but you're really hard pressed to use Pushes effectively if you bunch up like that. I just don't see how it would work in practice without sucking up a ton of AP but as noted, I have never tried it so maybe I should.

One thing I could see helping in that quite a bit is Saddle, though. Since it's a Place effect, you could pretty easily get Wong into position and you would have the big pig so would need only two extra models.

[Blacks85]

52 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Yeah, but you're really hard pressed to use Pushes effectively if you bunch up like that. I just don't see how it would work in practice without sucking up a ton of AP but as noted, I have never tried it so maybe I should.

One thing I could see helping in that quite a bit is Saddle, though. Since it's a Place effect, you could pretty easily get Wong into position and you would have the big pig so would need only two extra models.

Surely constrain you in sub-optimal movement and place, but I believe - sometimes - it might be very helpful.

Consider you have also the blocking terrain, so you can "abuse" of them to halve the quantity of models necessary to block each other. Moreover, if you have a narrow passage between two of them, you can virtually move your team as a chess-grid being everywhere immune to Ikyro.

Anyway, I would use this as a chance to take a safe shoot to take down lost love and - forbidding him to summon ikyro - their crew would have only one malevolence aura...things will be easier from now on.

The only positive part - vs resser - is that they usually don't shoot so you don't really have to worry to stay in cover and keep this formation to block summoning, or it would be nearly impossible.

[Adran]

Base blocking a 50mm base can still allow several pathways for a 30 mm model to move along. 

 

Blasts against Kirai seems strong, until you remember that Seishin can stop blasts. 

[daniello_s]

Not to mention Kirai has a 'natural talent' to kill your Gremlin and summon Gaki in process which later can devour your other Gremlin

[SinJ]

Also while not particularly potent Kirai generally brings Onryo which absolutely have ranged attacks.

In general I do think Wong is your Ressur drop as blasts are usually solid. Glowy is the real winner here ignoring Incorporeal. On McTavish he can also devour corpse or scrap to gain additional attacks.

[Omenbringer]

9 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Yeah, but you're really hard pressed to use Pushes effectively if you bunch up like that. I just don't see how it would work in practice without sucking up a ton of AP but as noted, I have never tried it so maybe I should.

One thing I could see helping in that quite a bit is Saddle, though. Since it's a Place effect, you could pretty easily get Wong into position and you would have the big pig so would need only two extra models.

While it can effect how and when you activate your models I have never really had an issue with this, particularly when combined with out activation. I would agreed that Saddle is a good method of reducing the impact further though.

7 hours ago, Adran said:

Base blocking a 50mm base can still allow several pathways for a 30 mm model to move along. 

 

Blasts against Kirai seems strong, until you remember that Seishin can stop blasts. 

This is very true. Base blocking a 50mm base does not require a tight formation, three models can effectively block the 50mm base from being placed in base contact with the target and still allow movement lanes. Here are two pictures that should illustrate the concept better than simple words.

Base blocking a 50mm base with three 30mm bases

Base blocking a 50mm base with 4 30mm bases

In both circumstances there is plenty of room for the "protected" model to move.

In regards to the Seishin and their defense, while it does shut down a lot of collateral damage potential it does nothing against the initial hit. Just focus on the model you want dead instead of trying to spread the damage.

[Blacks85]

15 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

While it can effect how and when you activate your models I have never really had an issue with this, particularly when combined with out activation. I would agreed that Saddle is a good method of reducing the impact further though.

This is very true. Base blocking a 50mm base does not require a tight formation, three models can effectively block the 50mm base from being placed in base contact with the target and still allow movement lanes. Here are two pictures that should illustrate the concept better than simple words.

Base blocking a 50mm base with three 30mm bases

This is right...but we forgot a must-element of resser team.

Yesterday night, speaking with my kirai friends we talked about this....and he said "Oh yeah, but hen I lure with a belle one or a couple of your models...and gg?"

Think is almost very true...too much true  

Think you need to out-activate or activate the middle model in companion to get something out of it

[Omenbringer]

Well if the Ressers are going to depend upon their Lure crutch and try to hypothetical things out, then why wouldn't the Gremlin player also depend upon theirs of high model counts (interfering with those Lure Walks), out activation, our own "lure" like abilities (Truffle Shuffle or Sooey! anyone?), and the infamous Pigapult. All of these can interfere with Lure's potential.

The Pigapult (extremely high willpower) in particular is strong since it doesn't need LOS and has an extremely long range, so it and its base blocking tenders can hide from those nasty Luring models (at least until they are dead). Add in Any of our Gremlin Masters with the Liquid Bravery upgrade as one of those up front base blockers and all of a sudden that Lure becomes much less reliable (:-fate for the Lure models flip when targeting the Master and +2 to Wp for all Minions).

Though I will grant that the Rotten Belles are strong (too strong in my opinion) they aren't the end all be all, particularly given the tools gremlins have available and the high recommended terrain amount for Malifaux.

[EpicWaffle]

A good counter to kirai is also the lucky effigy with it's aura: you maybe give him a defensive (assuming you're well positionated), 1 Ap on the model for the aura, and than accomplice. That damn thing has 3 inches engage range if I'm not mistaken so it's hard that it won't reach the effigy for it not to be a legal target. It definitely can take the hit from the ikiryo, even succes against it, tho it s kinda of a situational pick imo.

I would for sure go with Wong or Somer vs a ressnplayer tho

[Goopy]

Someone told me during a game that they had an upgrade that allows Iriko to be summoned within 2" of the target but I can't find it now. Did I get swindled? 

[Omenbringer]

Perhaps they were thinking of Kirai's Swirling Spirits action on her base card, though this would require the Ikiryo to already have been summoned along with a lot of other hoops to jump thru.

[Fetid Strumpet]

They might have gotten Kirai's summoning of the Ikryo wrong and thought they could apply the Lonely Assassin trigger from the Unforgiven limited upgrade to the action which summons her. Is the player a newer player, as if I were brand new I think that *could* be a mistake I might make.

[Omenbringer]

Thanks Fetid Strumpet, that was one I was also considering mentioning but as it is tied to a suit and Malevolence is an ability that doesn't have a duel it seemed like a stretch. Could see a newer player or one who has only seen Kirai second hand making that mistake though.