Schemes & Stones Master Spotlight Pandora

[Khyodee]

Let us know what you think about this weeks episode.

http://schemesandstones.podbean.com/e/episode-39-master-spotlight-pandora/

[D_acolyte]

Lots of good points.
It was not mentioned that Inflict is a good action because it is a tactical action so things that effect is based on attack action like Fees. That was a fun work around in a game.

I tend to go with brawler Pandora so it is good to hear from a person that go with Voices. I still like a second hitter with brawler Pandora.

I am not a fan of Fear Given Form on her and take wings to just keep her a little more mobile. I find that she is often a very active master in both style.

Fugue State is defiantly hard to find room. It is good for a heavy interaction game.

Poltergeist is also a fast scheme runner but mine tends to be lucky.

[lusciousmccabe]

1 hour ago, D_acolyte said:

It was not mentioned that Inflict is a good action because it is a tactical action so things that effect is based on attack action like Fees. 

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Is it that Inflict is good because it won't cause her damage if she's stacked with Fees? Because she's a Master and can't get Fees. 

As a damaging tactical action it is a good work around for things like that condition the Nurse gives that only lets you take tactical actions, the Shindig special rules and anything that mucks up your ability to target models with attacks. 

[D_acolyte]

29 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying here. Is it that Inflict is good because it won't cause her damage if she's stacked with Fees? Because she's a Master and can't get Fees. 

As a damaging tactical action it is a good work around for things like that condition the Nurse gives that only lets you take tactical actions, the Shindig special rules and anything that mucks up your ability to target models with attacks. 

Exactly. Fees specifically happens with attack action that cause damage.

[lusciousmccabe]

That's what I thought but was a bit confused by the way you phrased it. Also, because Guild Lawyers can't target Masters with Special Damages. Which makes me sad. 

 

[HegemonyKrcket]

Unfortunately the Blackblood Shaman and Pandora combo won't work, because the Shaman can't use Pustules on her.  The FAQ says that having the Blackblood Condition is not the same as Blackblood Ability.  Which makes me sad.

[lusciousmccabe]

1 minute ago, HegemonyKrcket said:

Which makes me sad.

It's a theme!

[Mr Janje]

Using Inflict also does not trigger Malevolence from Kirai & Lost Love :)!

[D_acolyte]

1 hour ago, lusciousmccabe said:

That's what I thought but was a bit confused by the way you phrased it. Also, because Guild Lawyers can't target Masters with Special Damages. Which makes me sad. 

 

they can not, BRIAN YOU CHEATED ME!! o well.

[Pikciwok]

I'm a little upset how you've skipped through abilities of the Poltergeist. It's a decent model, good at scheme running, with great debuffing aura. His (2) action is situational but can be a game changer. He's a good jumping point for Sorrows. It has reasonable price.

I do like Primordial Magic. It's cheap so I can put another high cost model in the list, and that extra card cycling is nice, but in GG2016 it's scheme marker ability is more situational than in Core Book Schemes.

However, I do think taking PM as an auto-include in Dora's crews is bad. Everywhere I read 'If you take Poltergeist you're paying extra opportunity cost of not taking Primordial Magic.' FYI, If you takie PM you're paying extra opportunity cost of not taking Poltergeist. flips means your opponent will loose that Wp duels badly. More often than not you will be on a straight flip. Your opponent will loose high cards in that flips. She will also loose Horror Duels, giving you extra cards from Widow Weaver. Her models will more likely stay in your engagement range.

[Viks_Masamune]

Awesome!  Been waiting for this episode to come out.  I got some good tips with Colette and the Viks from this show.  Keep up the great work.

[HegemonyKrcket]

17 hours ago, Pikciwok said:

I'm a little upset how you've skipped through abilities of the Poltergeist. It's a decent model, good at scheme running, with great debuffing aura. His (2) action is situational but can be a game changer. He's a good jumping point for Sorrows. It has reasonable price.

I do like Primordial Magic. It's cheap so I can put another high cost model in the list, and that extra card cycling is nice, but in GG2016 it's scheme marker ability is more situational than in Core Book Schemes.

I agree that they should have gone over the Poltergeist, but I disagree about it's over-all usefulness.  I've generally found that it's Wp aura is just 1" too short for it to be as useful as I'd like.  Generally I end up taking an Insidious Madness for the same cost, or Mr. Tannen for 1 stone more.  I could see taking it for Guard the Stash as Paranormal Activity would be a lot more useful in boggy down your opponent.  And I could see taking it with Voices Pandora as you could get more use out of the it's Magical Extension if you've got a decent crow.  But, again, if I'm making a general list I'm going to have the Primordial Magic just for the card cycling and Insignificant attack.  Let alone it being mobile VP.

 

19 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

It's a theme!

I can see that, but it makes that Trigger way more restrictive.  I assumed that was the entire reason for the trigger, was to be able to set up a model during Turn One to protect it from your other Nephilim and to have a new Pustules target. 

[HegemonyKrcket]

17 hours ago, Pikciwok said:

I'm a little upset how you've skipped through abilities of the Poltergeist. It's a decent model, good at scheme running, with great debuffing aura. His (2) action is situational but can be a game changer. He's a good jumping point for Sorrows. It has reasonable price.

I do like Primordial Magic. It's cheap so I can put another high cost model in the list, and that extra card cycling is nice, but in GG2016 it's scheme marker ability is more situational than in Core Book Schemes.

I agree that they should have gone over the Poltergeist, but I disagree about it's over-all usefulness.  I've generally found that it's Wp aura is just 1" too short for it to be as useful as I'd like.  Generally I end up taking an Insidious Madness for the same cost, or Mr. Tannen for 1 stone more.  I could see taking it for Guard the Stash as Paranormal Activity would be a lot more useful in boggy down your opponent.  And I could see taking it with Voices Pandora as you could get more use out of the it's Magical Extension if you've got a decent crow.  But, again, if I'm making a general list I'm going to have the Primordial Magic just for the card cycling and Insignificant attack.  Let alone it being mobile VP.

 

19 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

It's a theme!

I can see that, but it makes that Trigger way more restrictive.  I assumed that was the entire reason for the trigger, was to be able to set up a model during Turn One to protect it from your other Nephilim and to have a new Pustules target. 

[orkdork]

I haven't listened yet, but when I contacted khyodee about doing Pandora, he said they had already recorded it and the guy uses a list like mine.

If so, the list is bonkers. Absolutely crushes anyone that doesn't see it coming, and most who do. I have stopped playing it lately because it gives my opponents fits. My first major tournament, she went undefeated with an average win diff of 6, and I was not playing for diff.

Excited to give it a listen and learn new stuff!

[orkdork]

I'm about 25 minutes in, and there is so much I want to say about how Voices should be played  He has a lot I agree with, but he's playing her ranged when she's really better in melee, just like brawler 'dora, IMO.

Khyodee was right on about incite + paralyze to get around condition removal. That is huge, and much of why I don't bother with depression.

P.S. I also thought I was unique with the Neverborn Allstars approach

[orkdork]

Definitely a good episode! Some really key points in there:

-Paralyze dora is the queen, and IMO, the strongest NBorn master in all strategies except quarters (Dreamer) and possibly headhunter (Lilith).

-Inflict is what you do to avoid having to use cards. It is very, very powerful, even without Misery stacking. I use it very often. A common activation for dora is to incite next to the paralyze target, paralyze it with a stone and a 13 (you are drawing 10 cards, so 13s are common), then inflict twice, holding your other high cards. Dora is often now in a spot where she is blocking enemies from Nekima and friends, but is nigh untouchable due to the strength of your control hand (especially relative to your opponent's after having to deal with all those flips), Fading Memory and Aether Connection.

I do think they spent less time talking over Voices 'dora than she deserves.

Primarily, while they did talk about how awesome Nekima is when you can paralyze enemies that threaten her, they didn't go into how impressively Nekima combos with Misery. The Bloody Beauty and Teach Them Fear both pulse range 4 WP duels. It is quite possible for Nekima to pulse 2-4 WP duels (range 4 at TN 13/14) per turn while killing 1-2 enemy models. Furthermore, she can capitalize on mood swing by killing threats while chaff is forced to activate. You often don't even need paralyze to keep her safe. If both Nekima and the Doppelganger get to attack an enemy before it can activate, it will die. I'm sure the guest knows this, and I'd love to have heard him expand on it.

Then, there are some bits I happen to disagree with. At least I've found what I think are more effective approaches (particularly for shooty crews, which I face very often).

First, while the front of Pandora's card is awesome, incite (with fading memory), paralyze and inflict really define her. She isn't a passive master.

Second, I dislike the depression approach, because activation control is king when you combine with Nekima, Doppel, Lure (Lilitu) and Ill Omens. You need that incite every turn. Bring 7 stones and stone for crows and cards. You really only need to paralyze the master and uber killy stuff like viks or howard. Even then, you can often use incite to keep them from activating before Nekima and the Doppel tear them down.

Third, they gave the impression of voices dora as ranged. She really isn't, imo. Getting in close gives you Ca7, no concern about cover, and forces randomization from enemy projectiles. Ca6 that cares about cover is far, far less reliable than Ca7 that doesn't care about cover. I use the projectile attack far less than the close attack. The board has to be really open, or the opponent really dangerous (viks) before I'll use the ranged method.

To get her there, take Lilitu. I really don't think you need Graves (though I do love him). Doppel and Nekima combine for insane killing power (the reason Doppel isn't a scheme runner very often is that she's following the big demon lady around, copying her sword). Turn 1, Lilitu and Doppel pull something into range for dora to incite (and possibly incite again). Now, she's likely half way up the board, engaged with something, and you have two incites down (preferably on stuff that already activated). Getting that first enemy into incite range with lures is really, really strong. Nekima and Doppel will kill it the following turn  Between ill omens and two more incites (up to 4 total), you can have your opponent's entire pile of weaker minions forced to go while Lilitu lures the beater into the waiting arms of Nekima and the Doppel.

In the end, however, the core of the Pandora uber squad is:

Pandora, Voices, Wings of Darkness, and (imo) Aether Connection

Primordial Magic

Nekima

Doppelganger, with RE if I have the extra stone

 

I personally go for Lilitu and Johan next. Graves is also great. The guest gives great advice on the rest of the models (i.e. Waldgeists and any of our many awesome scheme runners). Lust doesn't make the cut for me I like her, but you have to have enough models to score your VP, and that means stuff like fish and trees.

Lilitu also has awesome synergy with Wings of Darkness. Opponents going after Pandora will usually try to trap her from pushing. Lure is a move, however, so she can fly over enemy models to where she can now push again.

Enough from me! Great episode! Thanks, as always!

[Pikciwok]

@orkdork, I hope you do realize models you've mentioned appear in every list of every master in our faction.

I'm not saying your list is bad, I just want to point out your suggestion is to take powerful, independent models that work well with any master.

Personally, I don't like Nekima in Dora's lists. She's very squishy - more fragile than the Teddy UNLESS she spends lots of soulstones for damage prevention. The problem is Dora always need lots of stones - for Crows, Tomes, Damage Prevention.

Also, I don't think Johan is necessary model. He's slow so it's fully dependant from movement tricks. So is Pandora. Plus I don't think condition removal is that important. Most of time Johan will keep swinging his hammer, and we've got a lot of other beaters.

[orkdork]

That's why I refer to them as the Neverborn Allstars

What I thought was unique was running it with voices Pandora instead of Lilith, and using lilitu instead of Graves. Turns out there are several of us at least who figured out how well this works.

It is amazingly powerful.

Johan isn't super necessary. I build without him often. I tweak the list slightly based on circumstances most every game.

 

[Palooka]

On 6/4/2016 at 9:05 AM, orkdork said:

Definitely a good episode! Some really key points in there:

-Paralyze dora is the queen, and IMO, the strongest NBorn master in all strategies except quarters (Dreamer) and possibly headhunter (Lilith).

-Inflict is what you do to avoid having to use cards. It is very, very powerful, even without Misery stacking. I use it very often. A common activation for dora is to incite next to the paralyze target, paralyze it with a stone and a 13 (you are drawing 10 cards, so 13s are common), then inflict twice, holding your other high cards. Dora is often now in a spot where she is blocking enemies from Nekima and friends, but is nigh untouchable due to the strength of your control hand (especially relative to your opponent's after having to deal with all those flips), Fading Memory and Aether Connection.

I do think they spent less time talking over Voices 'dora than she deserves.

Primarily, while they did talk about how awesome Nekima is when you can paralyze enemies that threaten her, they didn't go into how impressively Nekima combos with Misery. The Bloody Beauty and Teach Them Fear both pulse range 4 WP duels. It is quite possible for Nekima to pulse 2-4 WP duels (range 4 at TN 13/14) per turn while killing 1-2 enemy models. Furthermore, she can capitalize on mood swing by killing threats while chaff is forced to activate. You often don't even need paralyze to keep her safe. If both Nekima and the Doppelganger get to attack an enemy before it can activate, it will die. I'm sure the guest knows this, and I'd love to have heard him expand on it.

Then, there are some bits I happen to disagree with. At least I've found what I think are more effective approaches (particularly for shooty crews, which I face very often).

First, while the front of Pandora's card is awesome, incite (with fading memory), paralyze and inflict really define her. She isn't a passive master.

Second, I dislike the depression approach, because activation control is king when you combine with Nekima, Doppel, Lure (Lilitu) and Ill Omens. You need that incite every turn. Bring 7 stones and stone for crows and cards. You really only need to paralyze the master and uber killy stuff like viks or howard. Even then, you can often use incite to keep them from activating before Nekima and the Doppel tear them down.

Third, they gave the impression of voices dora as ranged. She really isn't, imo. Getting in close gives you Ca7, no concern about cover, and forces randomization from enemy projectiles. Ca6 that cares about cover is far, far less reliable than Ca7 that doesn't care about cover. I use the projectile attack far less than the close attack. The board has to be really open, or the opponent really dangerous (viks) before I'll use the ranged method.

To get her there, take Lilitu. I really don't think you need Graves (though I do love him). Doppel and Nekima combine for insane killing power (the reason Doppel isn't a scheme runner very often is that she's following the big demon lady around, copying her sword). Turn 1, Lilitu and Doppel pull something into range for dora to incite (and possibly incite again). Now, she's likely half way up the board, engaged with something, and you have two incites down (preferably on stuff that already activated). Getting that first enemy into incite range with lures is really, really strong. Nekima and Doppel will kill it the following turn  Between ill omens and two more incites (up to 4 total), you can have your opponent's entire pile of weaker minions forced to go while Lilitu lures the beater into the waiting arms of Nekima and the Doppel.

In the end, however, the core of the Pandora uber squad is:

Pandora, Voices, Wings of Darkness, and (imo) Aether Connection

Primordial Magic

Nekima

Doppelganger, with RE if I have the extra stone

 

I personally go for Lilitu and Johan next. Graves is also great. The guest gives great advice on the rest of the models (i.e. Waldgeists and any of our many awesome scheme runners). Lust doesn't make the cut for me I like her, but you have to have enough models to score your VP, and that means stuff like fish and trees.

Lilitu also has awesome synergy with Wings of Darkness. Opponents going after Pandora will usually try to trap her from pushing. Lure is a move, however, so she can fly over enemy models to where she can now push again.

Enough from me! Great episode! Thanks, as always!

I agree with the vast majority of what you're saying here. Pandora wants to get her hands dirty. I rarely use Nekima just because it makes me feel bad how good she is with Pandy.

I used Graves for a while - but honestly I found he died too easy because I couldn't use Martyr or Incorp to keep him alive. Woe heavy crews are where it's at - and when you have Candy and Doppel working as healers every 3 turns they keep pretty much everything alive from heavy Martyr work. A common complaint about the Poltergeist is that he dies too easy - when you have Iggy and Pandora sucking up two wounds every time he gets hit this is not the case.

 

Al.

[chryspainthemum]

On 6/3/2016 at 7:05 PM, orkdork said:

Pandora, Voices, Wings of Darkness, and (imo) Aether Connection

Primordial Magic

Nekima

Doppelganger, with RE if I have the extra stone

Running a very similar crew, though I've been playing with Hooded Rider over Nekima... and he ain't too shabby. Hits a little less hard, but hard enough, but is a lot more survivable and mobile - so you can use your mobility shenanigans on Pandora herself. Then his ability to charge into combat where Pandora paralyzed then pull Pandora out somewhere else (or whatever other model) is amazing. If you don't need to be heavy on scheme runners, Teddy as a backup beater works really well here, too. I'm not sure if I'd entirely give up on Nekima because the willpower duels she causes ARE relevant, but I'm really digging the rider.

[MetaphoricDragn]

Instead of Lilitu + Nekima i've been using a module of Beckoner + 2x Illuminated

 

I've also been using the Emissary with her

[orkdork]

My main issue with the rider is just that doppel can't get his trigger.

I'll give him a try, though!

As far as illuminated, I don't have them yet, but I could see them rocking socks as well!