Fixing Leviticus

[Icemyn]

First, let me start by saying I am an avid Levi player, he is the reason I started actually playing Malifaux. Mostly because of the Riders, but then because of his interesting playstyle. 

 

Regardless, it has become blatantly obvious that he is one of the most if not the most overpowered masters in the game. I can confidently say this having played innumerable games with him and winning nearly all of them in a manner best described as "not close". I did end up winning GenCon and there are BatReps if you are really interested in that sort of thing. I only mention that not to brag, but to give credence to the idea that I may possibly know what I'm talking about, maybe. 

 

All that aside, one of the reasons that Leveticus is so dominant is his crews are demonstrably more powerful than other crews from the gates. He has the largest hiring pool in the game and suffers no penalties to using it. It's gotten so bad that new models are being balanced around whether or not they make the Leveticus problem worse(check out the Wave3 Beta). This is a real issue, it needs to be addressed.

 

Here is what I suggest:

 

Most crews when hiring out of faction for free do it based on a keyword, Guardsman, puppet, black sheep, tormented, etc. Leveticus gets the very common characteristics of Undead and Construct which practically gives him the best of all factions. 

 

The only template for a Master who gets to hire out of faction without regards to a limited characteristic is Zoraida and she has to pay the mercenary tax to do it. That is what I suggest for Leveticus, errata his upgrades to force him to pay the mercenary tax on any model hired out of faction. 

 

While this may not seem like a big deal it is. It will cut into his pool and limit his build options, likely forcing him to play more of his balanced theme crew.  

 

I'm not saying this is a final end all be all fix by any means, but I think it would be a very good starting point to bring him more in line with other Masters. It will also let models out of faction get out from under Levi's shadow from a design standpoint. (IE if its balanced at 6 levi taking it at 7 shouldnt break the game)

 

Please feel free to disagree and have your own ideas. I want Levi to end up in a place where I don't feel awful putting him on the table in a casual game. 

[Ghulaf5420]

I'm also a Levi player and I agree Levi is definitely top tier.  I wouldn't say he is the most OP master, maybe tied with a couple others. 

 

I also won most of my games with him when I first started using him, but then I put him on the shelf (my regular opponents were starting to complain and I wanted to give them a break).  Now that the other players have more experience playing against Levi, when I pull him out it's not an auto win.  They don't build lists to counter Levi either.  We use the setup steps correctly, and I have four Outcast masters to choose from. 

 

That being said, I wouldn't complain about having to pay an extra soulstone for hiring out of faction.  I don't think that's unreasonable.  But then I would want some power reduction in some of those other top tier masters (Looking at you. Perdita and Ramos!)

[CougDyver]

I'll just chip in here because I regularly play against Leveticus. (moxypoo likes him)  I feel that Levy (levi? leve?) is annoying if you're not used to it, but I think he falls into the category of "overpowered" only playing him the first couple times.  He is definitely a solid master, and his versatility with his hiring pool makes him playable with almost any strat/scheme combo, but in playing against him he is by no means an auto-win.  I don't have specific battle-reports, so I know this may not mean as much, but anecdotally I would say we're probably pretty even, I can think of a game where it was my first time ever playing Lillith and I beat him (Nekima is nasty btw) and I'm a consistent Ramos player, and can think of a few times we've gone either way (yay reactivating Rail Golem!).  It is all about knowing what he does, and how to beat it, e.g. waif hunting, killing him before he activates, re-positioning anchors so he can't respawn.  I've played him enough that I know how to screw with his plans, and also how to earn VP getting around him.

 

Now, this is being said about a small local group.  We have 4 people who have played regularly since the M2E beta, a couple others who have tried, and we haven't ever been to Gencon or anything like that.  We may not be the best players, and maybe aren't using him to his full potential.  But, I'd wager our Levy player is the best of our group, and has quite a bit of gaming experience.  So from my 2 cents, I'd say Levy doesn't need a fix.

 

Que moxy coming in here soon saying that if anything needs to be "fixed" it is the rail golem...

[daniello_s]

As Viki player I have heard a lot how those girls are overpowered, completely broken and utterly sexy.

Then I have shown how to counter them or at least to mitigate their so-called overpowerness so now the are considered as utterly sexy only

I presume it will be the same problem with Levi. First impression - OMG!..., then - OK, strong, powerful but OK.

[LunarSol]

Pretty reasonable suggestion.

[zFiend]

We played a lot of games with me playing the Dreamer / McMourning against Leveticus with Tom from the forums on vassal. I didn't feel that Leveticus was that overpowered but it could have something to do with the fact I played some utterly filthy masters as well. But I think this probably wouldn't hurt Leveticus too much. I am keen on hearing Tom's thoughts on the matter though as he has played Leveticus a lot. 

[Dirial]

Perhaps you are just an awesome player, Icemyn? How do you do with other Masters?

[moxypoo]

I'll just chip in here because I regularly play against Leveticus. (moxypoo likes him)  I feel that Levy (levi? leve?) is annoying if you're not used to it, but I think he falls into the category of "overpowered" only playing him the first couple times.  He is definitely a solid master, and his versatility with his hiring pool makes him playable with almost any strat/scheme combo, but in playing against him he is by no means an auto-win.  I don't have specific battle-reports, so I know this may not mean as much, but anecdotally I would say we're probably pretty even, I can think of a game where it was my first time ever playing Lillith and I beat him (Nekima is nasty btw) and I'm a consistent Ramos player, and can think of a few times we've gone either way (yay reactivating Rail Golem!).  It is all about knowing what he does, and how to beat it, e.g. waif hunting, killing him before he activates, re-positioning anchors so he can't respawn.  I've played him enough that I know how to screw with his plans, and also how to earn VP getting around him.

 

Now, this is being said about a small local group.  We have 4 people who have played regularly since the M2E beta, a couple others who have tried, and we haven't ever been to Gencon or anything like that.  We may not be the best players, and maybe aren't using him to his full potential.  But, I'd wager our Levy player is the best of our group, and has quite a bit of gaming experience.  So from my 2 cents, I'd say Levy doesn't need a fix.

 

Que moxy coming in here soon saying that if anything needs to be "fixed" it is the rail golem...

Of course the Rail Golem is OP!  Is that even a question?! Sorry, I had to haha.

 

I agree with CougDyver - Leveticus is definitely top tier, but more than most other masters, he's a noob-hammer.  If you have no experience against him, the playstyle is so convoluted and out of the ordinary that you'll typically have a very difficult time dealing with him.  However, as CougDyver highlights, once you have experience against Levy, he's certainly not overpowered.  Another counterpoint that Dirial aptly points out is the you may just be a great player Icemyn.  In that case, your skill rather than the models you play are the contributing factors to your winning capabilities.  Since you won GenCon, I assume you must be pretty good!

 

Now, if Wyrd were to take your suggestion, I wouldn't be upset, but I don't think it's necessary.  If we start to see Levy filling up the majority of Top 8 spots at big tournaments, then I'll agree that there's a problem.  Until then, I do not think he's too powerful.

[Icemyn]

Some things have been pointed out to me with regards to my suggestion. 

My templating it after Zoraida's Enthrall a few things happen. 

For Reference:

Enthrall: This model’s Crew may hire any Living
model with a Wp 4 or less as if they had the
Mercenary characteristic.

 

The big one being that he can only hire 2 models this way which will really limit his ability to just take the best models in the game for any given scenario. I had forgotten the Mercenary rule had the no more than 2 stipulation, which honestly I think is a good limiter. With that in mind I slightly alter my suggestion to this. 

 

1) Remove his current limited upgrades. 

2) Create a new limited upgrade Pariah of Bone and Iron. 0ss This model's crew may hire any non Gremlin Undead or Construct Model as if they had the Mercenary Characteristic. 

 

The reason for it being 0ss is that you shouldn't be double merc taxed if you want to only take 1 model. or 1.5 taxed if you take 2. I do understand this is a big change and one that causes the same problems as the errata on the wave 1 upgrades and models. 

 

Dirial: Admittedly I don't lose very often, but when playing other masters I can usually help my opponent by telling them where their flaw was. Be it hiring, scheme choice, tactics, etc. With Levi all I can say is "my models are better than yours, sorry". 

 

Edit: I really just want to address the wait til he wins x number of big tournaments logic. This logic does not work in a game with a player base of this size with tournaments happening infrequently. Players are going to play what they have in Malifaux, no one is just bandwagoning the best builds week to week. In a game system like Magic: The Gathering the logic is totally ok because you have thousands of data points weekly to draw from and changing decks is trivial in the face of changing armies. Also in wargames like this the tournament structure rewards perfection, you generally have to win every round to actually win. This is because games take so much longer to set up and play than a game like Magic. If a player gets "unlucky" or makes a tactical mistake one round winning or placing is unlikely. 

 

I want to stress that I think Leveticus's play style is totally fine when people understand it, his crew choices are not. Ryle, Mech Rider, stitched, necropunks(5 factions!) all at cost at the same time is where he breaks the game. 

[SpectreEliteGaming]

I am in the same place Moxypoo is, I think.

I don't think a Merc tax would hamper Levy much as I usually only run him with 2 out of faction constructs - the undead and constructs characeristics is his "thing" and paying a merc tax doesn't seem right.

He is very much a noob-hammer, just a little more well rounded then the Viks or something similar. I don't believe he is overpowered but he his top tier. After playing as Levy and against him from time to time - he can be reliably countered.

I would suggest that Levy is no more powerful than Ramos, Colette, Dreamer, Zoraida, Ophelia, Somer, McM, or Seamus - all of whom I consider top tier... the difference being that Levy has a little extra punch to make up for his gimmicky playstyle.

You've probably been playing way too much Levy and are really good at playing him to a level above most other players. Also, I have found that the aforementioned Masters all have some kind of crazy combination or synergistic tactics that seem MPE until you've played enough to look out for them. Perhaps every master being OP in some regard is what balances out the game.

Maybe you're OP... but I don't think he is

[SpiralngCadavr]

Limiting it to two models (merc tax would include the model cap, using zoraida's model) would seem awfully restrictive to those leveticus collectors out there, though I don't think it would hurt his viability, and I think that having him come with a "hire undead or constructs as mercs" rule instead of his two upgrades would have been fine. However, there is the history of the model (the collection thing and that he's already in print) combined with wyrd's reluctance to errata anything that doesn't absolutely need it, that makes this the realm of house ruling and speculation rather than anything like errata possibilities...

[Icemyn]

Limiting it to two models (merc tax would include the model cap, using zoraida's model) would seem awfully restrictive to those leveticus collectors out there, though I don't think it would hurt his viability, and I think that having him come with a "hire undead or constructs as mercs" rule instead of his two upgrades would have been fine. However, there is the history of the model (the collection thing and that he's already in print) combined with wyrd's reluctance to errata anything that doesn't absolutely need it, that makes this the realm of house ruling and speculation rather than anything like errata possibilities...

I agree with everything you said except the collection bit. You can still take them, they have not lost value, just not all at once. 

[Ausplosions]

Levy isn't OP.

Is he hard to beat the first half dozen times? Yep.

Is it the fault of his rules if a person can't beat you tactically, and struggles to adapt to Leve's mechanics? No.

He's not OP.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm not sure that's how many people would see it. You should have seen the outcry when I suggested during the first beta that perhaps allowing Nicodem to summon any undead resser minion might be too strong, and flexible in the future, and therefore inhibit model design in the future, and perhaps it might be better to add the keyword Zombie to certain models and let him summon those so if there were undead minions we didn't want him to summon they wouldn't have to have a special rule preventing it. 

 

...

 

I probably could have sailed an 18th century Man of War a good distance across the atlantic if I could have had all the people telling me what a terrible Idea it was on deck and facing into the sails while they commented.

 

Same thing with his hiring. People bought a ton of models for Leveticus last edition because he could use them, and Wyrd just didn't want to take them away, which is understandable. However it does leave potential issues with future design, which we are just going to have to deal with.

[hypoking]

Levy isn't OP.

Is he hard to beat the first half dozen times? Yep.

 

 

Is it the fault of his rules if a person can't beat you tactically, and struggles to adapt to Leve's mechanics? No.

He's not OP.

 

Broken glass is not op.

 

Sure you have to crawl through it on your hands and knees a half a dozen times before you get the knack and deaden yourself to the pain.

 

I mean what's really at fault here, is it the sharp and splintery nature of the broken glass or just your soft, easily lacerated, and uncalloused skin?

 

 

 

Ok, got that out of my system.

 

Honestly I don't think Levi is op. He is a powerhouse but he is beatable. I think the issue here, if there is one, is that he can be unpleasant to come to terms with. Unfortunately that's not a balance issue and not something that can really be addressed through errata.

[Ausplosions]

Broken glass is not op.

Sure you have to crawl through it on your hands and knees a half a dozen times before you get the knack and deaden yourself to the pain.

I mean what's really at fault here, is it the sharp and splintery nature of the broken glass or just your soft, easily lacerated, and uncalloused skin?

.

If it takes you half a dozen instances of this before you realise your tactic of crawling through the glass isn't going to help you, is it really the glass that is the issue?

Or is the real issue that despite knowing what the glass will do, instead of walking over it in a nice pair of boots, you continue to crawl through it on your hands and knees screaming "but glass is just too good"!!

[SpiralngCadavr]

I think you missed the point of Hypoking's metaphor.

[moxypoo]

Broken glass is not op.

 

Sure you have to crawl through it on your hands and knees a half a dozen times before you get the knack and deaden yourself to the pain.

 

I mean what's really at fault here, is it the sharp and splintery nature of the broken glass or just your soft, easily lacerated, and uncalloused skin?

I think this metaphor highlights an interesting psychological phenomenon, one that I have an extremely difficult time empathizing with. 

 

From my observations, it seems that many wargamers (or gamers in general) become comfortable with a specific playstyle or series of actions that they like to take and decline to adapt to new situations.  For example, this is exactly how I play Starcraft 2 and probably why I'm not very good at the game.  When players such as these run into a novel situation they tend to beat their heads into a wall instead of altering their tactics to try to overcome their new situation.  This leads to frustration instead of creativity causing many players to brand the opposing model/faction/action/etc. as overpowered or an NPE rather than seeing a new challenge to overcome. 

 

My attitude is this: There are no NPEs; rather there are challenges and ways to overcome them.

 

To tie this back to Leveticus, I think he is a perfect example of the situation I described where a player runs into a non-standard situation where normal methods of play don't necessarily work.  Now, there are certainly examples of something being overpowered (pre-patch Hamelin in M1.5E, for example), but I think these situations are much more rare than we think.  I have to applaud Wyrd for being very stingy with the errata-hammer in this regard.

[hypoking]

I like challenges and overcoming them as much as the next guy. I love discovering strong tactics and hilarious counters that fold them up like wet paper bags. I love dreamer turning to shreds in front of Sonia. I love Ikyro one-shoting pigapults. I love having half my crew trapped in a room as a new piece of blocking terrain falls infront of the only door. I love Nix laughing at Pandora. I love stopping prompted Coryphee from dancing together and watching as they both sac themselves. I love the humble bayou gremlin just not giving a damn about proper manners. The meta in this game is every bit as ridiculous as it is entertaining.

 

Thing is Moxy there's a decent number of people out there who don't share our refined pallet and tend to get a little, I think understandably, irritated when they figure out in media res that the basic principles of the game are getting turned on their head. I mean you cant blame them for acting on assumptions like 'things will die when I kill them,' or being upset when it doesn't work out that way.

[Bodiless]

It's a bit odd, reading the responses in this thread you would think that the OP said that Levi needed to be toned down because he was struggling to win against him. 

[Bengt]

I love stopping prompted Coryphee from dancing together and watching as they both sac themselves. 

How would that work?

[Adran]

Icemyn

Have you tried playing Leveticus under your proposed changes?

How are you finding it? Does it weaken him? Do you find that playign crews with only 2 non outcasts weakens him hugely?

[Icemyn]

Icemyn

Have you tried playing Leveticus under your proposed changes?

How are you finding it? Does it weaken him? Do you find that playign crews with only 2 non outcasts weakens him hugely?

I have not. Changing the game and reporting back on it would get the most negative feedback you have ever seen. Imagine the current comments with twice the condescension & Derision. Additionally, by myself there is no way I could generate enough data points to prove it would indeed be a good fix. 

[Kogan Style]

Do you frequent Kickstarter? I'm pretty sure that changing the game (even in a friendly setting) will not provoke the turdstorm you fear (or see on KS on a regular basis).

[Cunning]

Having played against Levi a few times I honestly dont think he's OP.  

I have more issues with Collodi, Dreamer, Pandora, Wong and Kirai than I do with Levi.