Dreamer Summoning, Is It Too Good?

[StaticVortex]

As I read over this discussion, I note quite a bit of conditional 'counter arguments' that I do not believe can all be done simultaneously.  If you buy 3 Daydreams and sacrifice one to summon 3 models first turn, at most you'll be able to push two of the summoned models 8"  Which is really good.  Turn two, you'll only be able to push two models 4"  You could spend stones to summon, but again, I feel that would just deplete the pool.  Yes, dreamer can counter the cost of summoning wounded models by healing them...however, he cannot do that AND summon three per activation.  He can also evoke card draws, (at the cost of a summon) on a model that deals damage and also within 6"...which, if the enemy models are within ml range of a model within 6" and LOS of dreamer....then they are likely able to target the boy, or could be able to soon.

 

Hoffman, if you're lucky enough to have the cards and be able to summon 3 models a turn with dreamer while keeping them alive and mobile without the opponent gaining advantage or being able out VP you...I commend you, well done!  I don't tend to see that much luck on my end...some hands yes, others...not so much.  I can immediately think of half a dozen or so ways to mitigate Dreamer by other masters/crews and I play with those counters in mind, using some of the same methods you've mentioned.  With all due respect, it comes across to me as Dreamer being so powerful... 'in a perfect world', but this is not a perfect world, this is Malifaux; where bad things happen.

 

My dreamer play tends to be more focused on <insert secret tactics here> where he will summon just one, maybe two models a turn, remove slow and healing them while moving towards those luscious  VP we all love.  Is Dreamer a strong master, yes.  I do not feel he is so strong to require adjustment, nor would I consider him in the OP range...I have watched him be laid to waste too many times while holding a solid hand to believe that at this point.  Dreamer on Dreamer action is a fun experience...and can be revealing.

[StaticVortex]

Honest question to ETA Hoffman and whoever else would like to answer.

 

Do you find Dreamer to be noticeably better than Lilith, Jacob, Collodi, etc? 

 

...

 

I guess to summarize my position: I find summoner dreamer good, right up there with but not really better than: Lilith, Collodi, Jacob and Pandora. I find him more versatile than Jacob and Pandora, about as versatile as Collodi (grrrr reckoning!) and less versatile than Lilith, who seems to be good at everything. 

I have to agree...Lilith tends to grant me more flexibility over all than Dreamer does.  Strategy plays a role of course, I'd rather have Dreamer summoning his little heart out for Reconnoiter and probably Squatters RIghts...but Reckoning?  I'd rather have Lilith for sure!  If I take my tot production list, she can do what she wants.

[EnternalVoid]

I have been focusing a bit on Dreamer to see about getting a better feel for him of late and to be honest, I have felt like his summoning can be a trap.  I played him plenty in the Beta, in fact I was one of the people that brought up the issue of him having a Ca7 for his summoning initially *I also showed how much summoning a Teddy earily on with just a Red Joker swung the game*.  After the beta we had some events and other things so I got away from Neverborn as a whole for a while and since came back to try and get the dreamer down better again.

 

Thing I found so far is that trying to summon 2-3 nightmares a turn was often to intensive of a resource drain.  Alot of my opponents had the ability to attack at range to some regard and I found myself losing alot of models due to low wounds or not having a hand worth defending anymore.  After feeling the pressure a few games I instead wrote myself a note and stuck to it "Summon 1 a turn, MAYBE 2 if I flip the first".  I have broke it a few times, namely with Insidius Maddnesses as I sometimes someone something bigger than one of them, but I have felt I have done better reducing the numbers of summons I spit out, increase AP use on Empty Night, and keep my Waking to 1 or 0.  He strikes me as doing better as a light summoner and crew supporter then a heavy summoner.  Generally despite being able to pull out models like Coppelius or the twins my oponents have generally agreed they fear my Perdita, McCabe, Lynch, and Sonnia lists more.  That told me personally that I have not played Pandora enough as they did not include her.  When I questioned them about it they sited things like the lack of armor, hard to kill out side the Sitched, and higher defense *save for Lilitu* as why they worry less about the summoning.  A few still gribe about the summoning, mostly people that generally play other summons like Nico but I feel from the comments it was more the grass is greener on the other side issue.

 

Now I am not saying it is not strong, but I am not sure it needs to be altered at this time.  We don't have alot of larger events data yet for dreamer.  I know at Adepticon he was hardly used, a few sighted the concern of time and others saying they were putting their trust in more time tested masters.  I would not put its current strength even close to other issues like original Nexus of Power or Diestro on Perdita which warranted quicker responses.

[Dolomyte]

ITT: People discuss the new "Broken" interaction and call for errata as if we are in Beta.

 

To be fair, they did just cuddle the mechanical rider and decaying aura. so apparently if people discuss these issues and they appear to be valid they will fix them.

[Justin]

To be fair, they did just nerf the mechanical rider and decaying aura. so apparently if people discuss these issues and they appear to be valid they will fix them.

 

There's a bit more to it than that.

 

Discuss away, but Dreamer isn't changing anytime in the foreseeable future.*

 

 

 

*Which isn't to say he will change in the distant future, either.

[The Godlyness]

I guess no one has mentioned you stitched reactivating themselves. Hey good job attack and winning that duel. Now I gamble you and relent. Now you have reactivate. Now I gamble you back and sweet you have reactivate then you gamble the main. Target 3 more times. For a grand total of 4 times. 6 if you are not slow. Op op op op cuddle cuddle cuddle cuddle. Rant Rant Rant.

Also chompy dreamer works just fine for reckoning and turf war. And when. I use summon dreamer my of my ap is spent on empty night since the ability is pure gold.

[Math Mathonwy]

Yeah, but dreamer being ht 1 doesn't come into the equation almost never which was my point. People mention how Ht 1 is "easier to hide" when that only applies against other Ht 1 models, and most times, the things you want to hide from aren't Ht 1

It might be the Gremlin in me talking, but I find Ht 1 a challenge

But seriously, yeah, it doesn't matter much. OTOH, being Ht 1 also means that he isn't Ht 3, which would make hiding a lot more difficult.

ITT: People discuss the new "Broken" interaction and call for errata as if we are in Beta.

Why do you need to post stuff like this? Why are you so keen on shutting discussions down? You do it over and over again. If a given topic is not to your liking, don't read it. Forums are for discussions. Besides, the OP was framed in the light of "is it just that I'm lucky or are other people noticing this, too?"

[Mason]

I guess no one has mentioned you stitched reactivating themselves. Hey good job attack and winning that duel. Now I gamble you and relent. Now you have reactivate. Now I gamble you back and sweet you have reactivate then you gamble the main. Target 3 more times. For a grand total of 4 times. 6 if you are not slow. Op op op op nerf nerf nerf nerf. Rant Rant Rant.

 

...you realize that models can only Reactivate once per turn, right?  If you allow the Stitched to Reactivate multiple times in a turn....yeah, I have no doubt that such a thing would be broken like whoa. 

 

Also, if your Stitched Together are wasting their AP targeting each other...does it really matter if they're reactivating all over the place? 

[Mason]

Why do you need to post stuff like this? Why are you so keen on shutting discussions down? You do it over and over again. If a given topic is not to your liking, don't read it. Forums are for discussions. Besides, the OP was framed in the light of "is it just that I'm lucky or are other people noticing this, too?"

 

/Moderator Hat On

 

Let's not drag this topic down with personal attacks, alright? 

 

/Moderator Hat Off

[Math Mathonwy]

...you realize that models can only Reactivate once per turn, right?  If you allow the Stitched to Reactivate multiple times in a turn....yeah, I have no doubt that such a thing would be broken like whoa. 

 

Also, if your Stitched Together are wasting their AP targeting each other...does it really matter if they're reactivating all over the place?

Two slow Stitcheds can target the enemy twice or target each other, gain reactivate and then the enemy four times. No multiple reactivates needed, though I do agree that the post in question was a bit difficult to parse.

[Mason]

Two slow Stitcheds can target the enemy twice or target each other, gain reactivate and then the enemy four times. No multiple reactivates needed, though I do agree that the post in question was a bit difficult to parse.

 

Okay, that makes more sense, and I can see how that would be a valid tactic.  

 

 

Personally, I've found that my opponents tend to just shoot the Stitched once they're down to their last wound, as with their low defense it's not terrible difficult getting a bullet into them, especially if all of their high cards are going towards supporting the Dreamer's summoning habit.  Even without ranged attacks, the Stitched have to be within 6" of the enemy to turn all their AP into attack actions, which is well within the charge range of most models.  Even then, every time they fail an attack, they end up hurting themselves, which means that a few random high cards on top of your opponent's deck can lead to their quick demise. 

 

That being said, if the opponent has already run out of models to activate, that can be pretty brutal, especially if they've got living models around the Stitched, as all that gambling damage could trigger their Rotten Contents for some extra damage as well, even if they just end up blowing themselves up. 

 

 

Disclaimer: I enjoy playing the Stitched Together despite their occasional wobbly nature.  They're really fun. 

[Adran]

But if the stiched is going down to 1 wound and gaining reactivate  on its activation why are you not killing it before it heals?

 

Sure, you can attack your own stiched to give them the re-activate, and there are certainly times its a good option, but generally?

You're spending 1 AP to gain 2, but you are possibly spending 1 AP to remove your models defense, and so see it killed before it gets those 2 AP.

 

And, just to clarify, the attacking stiched can't relent, its only for defenders.

 

 

On topic of Summoning, I've faced the dreamer several times, and whilst its a hard fight, I don't think his summoning is a problem.

If you don't have a crew that can deal area damage, then you are going to struggle more, but there are a lot of models out there that could remove all 3 of the Dreamers summons in 1 AP.  

Will that Happen often? well it depends on how well the dreamer player and their opponent play.

 

The more he summons, the less he heals, and so the more vuilnerable his summons become.

 

There are some crews that will struggle against him more than others, btu thats not so different to many crews. All factions have access to models that can cause him problems.

Picking them then becomes a meta question.

[DeleteAccount]

I haven't faced the dreamer, so can't really add much to the whole "too much or not discussion", but what I do want to put on the table is if Chompy Bits dreamers is just not up to snuff or do people get seduced by the shinny summons and not consider it?

[Mason]

I haven't faced the dreamer, so can't really add much to the whole "too much or not discussion", but what I do want to put on the table is if Chompy Bits dreamers is just not up to snuff or do people get seduced by the shinny summons and not consider it?

 

I tend to favor Chompy Dreamer more than Summoner Dreamer, and I think he does pretty alright for himself.  I don't pull him out very often, but that's a combination of practicing with my Outcasts for GenCon (somehow I became an Outcast player...) and still having to proxy some of his models (I lack the twins, Alps, and Insidious Madnesses), which I try not to do against some of our newer players (so as not to get them confused over what model is what). 

 

Melee Expert on Chompy is really awesome, though I'm a bit disappointed that his two main attacks are so similar.  But, he's still semi-difficult to take down, and you can really surprise people who ignore him thinking that he'll just go away by just keeping him out on the table to tie up and/or smash their models.

[StaticVortex]

I haven't faced the dreamer, so can't really add much to the whole "too much or not discussion", but what I do want to put on the table is if Chompy Bits dreamers is just not up to snuff or do people get seduced by the shinny summons and not consider it?

I think on first glance, Summoner Dreamer looks like the obvious choice and Chompy Dreamer then comes across as a watered down option.  At least, that was my initial impression off the cards.  So I started playing Chompy, and now I have to agree with Mindshred, tending to favor him myself.  The Dreamer has quite a bit of depth....it just may not be readily apparent.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

It was asked and I dont think I answered. Do I think Dreamer is better than Lilith or Lynch? Well with the Erata being what it is I would have to play Lynch a few times to see if it really hurts him or not. I dont think it's all that devistating of a blow. I uselly only got one shot off with Final Debts anyway.

I think Dreamer is stronger than them both in all missions except Reckoning. That's because its the only mission that can really hurt to summon too many models.

In all others, being able to toss out scoring models is huge. Lilith relies defensively on a strong offense and a high def stat. Their all living models so most of what the Dreamer does works better, what with the terrorfying and the rotten contents. Plus the Dreamer's crew has plenty of ca/ml/sh at stat 6 so it nearly negates the only defense the Nephililm have. Then there is the fact that the boy summons models so the offenseive powers of Lilith lose potency. Once Lilith loses Nekima or a few Youngs, she's going to have a real hard time countering the 3 new models being brought in.

 

And i think that is my point overall. Turn 1, the Dreamer is probably equal or less than the model count of his opponent. Turn two he's greater than. If the opponent didn't make headway against some of the summoned models. Then by turn three, when he has suffered any losses, is going to get lost in activations to the Dreamer. If lilith loses two models by turn 3, she's probably down to 5 or 6 models. Where as the Dreamer could up three or four models. The difference in activation count is going to make a victory for lilith very difficult.

 

I think the only way to beat the Dreamer is to be hyper agressive. Unless youre one of two masters that toss out blast damage like its candy. Or pandora... i think she might be a good counter to Dreamer as well.

[cdhay]

I play dreamer but only chompy dreamer. I love it and certainly feel a match for any opposition I have faced so far, not played summoner dreamer yet and as it stands I won't be any time soon.

 

But I also play Lilith and although I think they are easier (more straight forward/less brain power needed) to play at certain strats and schemes I think that is only down to experience and not necessarily down to their individual abilities. I think they both have great movement and also can both put out a lot of damage.

 

I tend to favour Lilith over Dreamer for Reckoning but again I think only due to familiarity and her "perceived" strength at it. In reality I think they could both be as good as each other at all schemes if you set up your crew correctly and have experience playing them. I don't think it is a case of just saying one master is better than the other, but the controlling players ability to adapt their play style to use them in that given situation.

[r4st4f4n]

One thought, still: some mercenaries came out, countering Wave1 summoners

Taelor with Welcome to Malifaux and the Relic Hammer(which also mercenary Johan has got)
Freikorps Specialist with the Clear the Area ability
Hans with Smile You Son of a... (Especially Ressers Upgrades)

But all of these have got 75%(Chompy is a Tyrant, but when he's out, we don't worry about this topic anymore) to 100% less effectiveness, trying to counter Dreamers summoning.
Maybe this contributes to a different experience? Is there a specific mercenary that is as effective against Dreamer summoning, as Taelor is against Ramos?

[Math Mathonwy]

Unless youre one of two masters that toss out blast damage like its candy.

Three: Sonnia, Rasputina and Wong.

Also, Lilith and Marcus can be in your face on turn one. Ophelia, Mah, Somer, and Ulix as well but they should not be too bad to handle.

[Somnicide]

Don't forget Perdita not so much for blast but just for general unbridled killiness

[The Godlyness]

I just can't believe this has hit three pages. Is it decent sure. But I still don't see Nico or kirai spending 5 stones for there summoning. So they need corpses or other spirits. Never seem to bee a problem. But if a little kid can spend 11 stones and then pray to 2-54 cards it's broken op and needs cuddling. No one forgets Tannen has to go before the dreamer. And if you have any tomes in your hand you wanted to summon with becomes harder. So paying 11 stones limited activation control and 2-54 cards. Yep. Clearly broken. No setup needed. Auto win button.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I just can't believe this has hit three pages. Is it decent sure. But I still don't see Nico or kirai spending 5 stones for there summoning. So they need corpses or other spirits. Never seem to bee a problem. But if a little kid can spend 11 stones and then pray to 2-54 cards it's broken op and needs cuddling. No one forgets Tannen has to go before the dreamer. And if you have any tomes in your hand you wanted to summon with becomes harder. So paying 11 stones limited activation control and 2-54 cards. Yep. Clearly broken. No setup needed. Auto win button.

 

I sense this topic upsets you. lol

I also sense you've not read the entire thread up to this point. That's ok.

 

This thread is the discussion of whether or not the Dreamer's summoning is too good. It is not a thread of declaration nor does is it trying to get anything cuddled. Remain calm and keep an open mind.

[mythicFOX]

New to the discussion but I've read most of it.

On summoning six models in two turns. That looks really resource intensive. If you're dong that reliably then you must be using most of your stones in the first two turns to get there right? Can someone who's doing this write out the sequence of play for us so we can understand the resources involved?

[Tuttleboy]

The only time I've summoned 6 models in 2 turns was when I summoned only Alps and Daydreams. Any other time I've tried 3 summons per turn I've failed. Either because of a black joker or not having the cards I need to cheat in and being out of SS to get the needed suit. Also no matter what happens if you summon 3 times successfully 2 turns in a row, Chompy will be on the table. A player that's played against Dreamer should know how easy it is to kill what he's summoned, too. They hit the table with 1 wound and don't heal until they activate and then only heal 3 wounds that's reduced by 1 for every waking he has. First turn of summoning 3 times, they will heal 1 because you can lower Waking 1 with a 0 action. Second turn of summoning you start the turn the turn with his 0 to get to waking 1, summon 3 times and LCB is out and won't get to activate to sacrifice himself until at least 1 enemy model goes. With Companion or Accomplice it should be fairly easy to take out at least 2 of the just summoned minis and just a titch harder to take down all 3.

Is summoning Dreamer good? Yup. As good as all the summoners. Does he need to be toned down? Nope.

[Dolomyte]

The Sequence as I read it mythic is as follows. 

 

Dreamer with Dreams of Pain Upgrade

Mr Tannen

 

Tannen goes first. 0 actions leave it to luck, which gives all masks a +2 value and tomes a -2

 

Then it kind of becomes hand dependant. If you have a mask or flip one, your casting at an 8, so need a 5 to summon an alp. or a 7. Rules wise if you spend a soustone to add a mask to the flip does it count as flipping a mask for tannens ability? I would imagine not. but if people are playing it that way I could see it much easier to summon them.

 

Give me an hour to build a crew around it and I'll see how reliable I can make it.