Dracomax Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 They bells are working towards the same objectives you are... so let's just make sure that no table has an objective that isn't behind a wall or in terrain? Good luck with that bro Or hope that the bells are not going towards the same turf marker you are, or whatever. Cool I can beat bells by making sure my opponents are all really bad at the game. WOot! I'm playing with newbies only from now on! And given how many schemes allow you to choose where your objectives are, I'm not sure I see your point. There are other ways to nuetralize a model than to kill them, 1-2 belles is significantly different than 4, and if they only bring belles along as crew(which is what would be necessary for neutralizing belles to be equivalent to tabling the opponent) then anything which in any way makes them less effective is going to gut the crew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
E.T.A. Hoffman Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 If by turn 5 it's more than a couple then you have been outplayed the entire game. It only take one! One Bell with Los and within 18" of your model sitting on Protect Territory marker and bam! You just lost to a single bell on teh other side of the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Again.. you are saying you have a clear 18" sightline straight to the Objective marker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracomax Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 If your protect territory is relying on a single model, in a single position, then you've been outplayed. It's fairly easy to have one model hitting it for multiple markers. setting up 2-3 would get you the VP even if one model is moved out of position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godlyness Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 How does a belle lure something when it is paralyzed? Wp 4 is supergood when targeting scary monsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joel Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I would but I don't care for vassal. Come to Adepticon if you can, we can play a live game. Shame - both MythicFox and Myself are UK based. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalcyonSeraph Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 All of the "Aha but terrifying!" "Aha but I am out of range" "Aha but I brought Hans" "Aha but you're already lured and killed" is meaningless Calvinball. Belles are good. Belle spam is good. It is neither unbeatable nor trivial to beat. The question of whether it is TOO good or meta-wrecking on a gamewide scale is literally not possible to hash out in this thread, and we've already been told that this thread will not lead to an errata. So until it is shown that Belle Spam is a degenerate strategy via actual large-scale play and results, we're just dickwaving here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mistercactus Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Joel, can you and MythicFox test out one of Hoffman's lists in a game or 2? I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'm curious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godlyness Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I just don't see it winning in tournaments. Guess people should prove me wrong. Ca 8 is good sure but hey adapt and overcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I would like to hear the results of someone who uses Belle Spam in an area where it is ruling, playing someone in an area which has little issue with Belles on Vassal.. recording it would be cool. I don't think there are any issues, it's quite hard to get them to work well on a board with the correct amount of scenery. It would also be interesting to see how a Belle spam run by one of the Chicago group would do at Adepticon, I personally think it would flounder in a more varied play enviroment as it's SO one note. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Joel, can you and MythicFox test out one of Hoffman's lists in a game or 2? I don't have a dog in this fight, but I'm curious! I'm happy to play Joel, but it really needs a players on both sides of the argument to play each other in order for it to get anywhere. If the Belle player is someone who doesn't see it as a problem I don't see them using the list effectively. Being UK based Adepticon isn't an option, but I'm happy to play VASSAL, or IRL in the UK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 It only take one! One Bell with Los and within 18" of your model sitting on Protect Territory marker and bam! You just lost to a single bell on teh other side of the table. Well I could just walk back to my marker... Oh wait, you mean I activated first and didn't do anything about it. (Like move to a place out of line of sight and drop another marker, or even walk beyong the 18 and drop a marker, because then when you move to get me in range I'll just walk to the first marker from the one remainign lure) Dagnam it! belles are good.... I'm not seeing them as that good. Half the game I'm happy to walk my models towards you, so if I get to do it with out spending AP, I'm not upset. Yes, I generally view a belle lure as an almost garenteed effect, but then it doesn't actually hurt my model, and it is sort of AP neutral. models that don't want to be moved should hide Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godlyness Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 The trigger is the worst part. Wish oiran had that trigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracomax Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 The worst part is pounce, which isn't even a trigger, it just happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaarup Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 It would seem that a lot of what this discussion is about would actually be fixed if the terrain was placed differently? The players with small, spread out terrain see the belle as overpowered and the players that have no issue have more/different terrain layout? A question for the players with "massive" Lure problems, do you alo regularly have trouble with long-ranged shooting crews? Personally I think Belles are very strong, but more on the annoying than the game losing argument. Looking at the pictures it does seem that my meta uses terrain a bit differently. Usually in larger terrain areas like 3"-5" on one side, like a small group of trees or a single house. We also include a few smaller obstackles like the large rocks I see on one of the pictures but nothing like the numbers I see there or as spread out. When looking at the pictures it looks a lot like what our terrain looked like in our first game in 1.5 where the experience was that ranged attack models was very OP. We changed our terrain composition accordingly after a few games. It could be that the rules section in the rulebook that describes terrain placement could need an add-on or something if this is the general experience, instead of an errata of different models? and by this I mean if the game is balanced after a more specific terrain cover and the rules fail to describe this correctly, then it seems likely that other models also bring a unbalanced experience to the game? EDIT: And btw I don´t think that a decrease in Ca will break the Belle, but just not sure that is the real issue here? Every Faction has some models that are perceived as more powerful than the normal standard..but as long as it brings a bit of flavour and doesn´t break the game I am quite happy about that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 It would seem that a lot of what this discussion is about would actually be fixed if the terrain was placed differently? The players with small, spread out terrain see the belle as overpowered and the players that have no issue have more/different terrain layout? A question for the players with "massive" Lure problems, do you alo regularly have trouble with long-ranged shooting crews? Personally I think Belles are very strong, but more on the annoying than the game losing argument. Looking at the pictures it does seem that my meta uses terrain a bit differently. Usually in larger terrain areas like 3"-5" on one side, like a small group of trees or a single house. We also include a few smaller obstackles like the large rocks I see on one of the pictures but nothing like the numbers I see there or as spread out. When looking at the pictures it looks a lot like what our terrain looked like in our first game in 1.5 where the experience was that ranged attack models was very OP. We changed our terrain composition accordingly after a few games. It could be that the rules section in the rulebook that describes terrain placement could need an add-on or something if this is the general experience, instead of an errata of different models? and by this I mean if the game is balanced after a more specific terrain cover and the rules fail to describe this correctly, then it seems likely that other models also bring a unbalanced experience to the game? Back in 1.5 we used to get Perdita is overpowered threads every couple of weeks. And it was always due to the amount of Terrain they were using. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godlyness Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 'Dita is op. 14" gun free push mechanic. Papa can give her dynamite, el mayor can make her df wp 9. Clearly op. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thaarup Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Back in 1.5 we used to get Perdita is overpowered threads every couple of weeks. And it was always due to the amount of Terrain they were using. Yea, the Nino hate was quite strong in those days too It is quite a nice experience to change the way terrain are normally placed! It can be a very different game experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracomax Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Well, My issue with perdita was always that she was an all but untouchable juggernaut that turn 3 on came into melee range and destroyed you, but that could just be that I never played against her enough to get a hang for it. But keep in mind that preventing gunline OP can lead to too much blocking terrain and not enough severe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Csonti Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I will play against Mythicfox on Monday. We rolled for the strat/schemes the following: Reconnoiter Assassinate, Protect Territory, Plant Evidence, Murder Protege, ALitS Deployment; Standard Map; The Crossing It will be an 50SS game against Arcanists. If anyone (who experienced the Belle-spam broken) would like to give me list variants to try to go with, you are more than welcome to PM me the details. Thanks in advance! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dracomax Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I will say that I think the terrain amount is a lot more clear in this edition than last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Godlyness Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Take assassinate and murder prot. Then lure them in to bag seamus or mcm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PolishSausage Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Samus 7 stones cache + bag of tools + Deceying aura + "the other aura" ( cant remember of the top of my head the one you take damage if you start and end activation in melee) Cocycat killer Sylabell + Bleeder lash 6x Bells Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I'll post only one thing here, even tough I said I wouldn't comment, I think something should be said regardless of which side you are on on this issue. While I still don't agree with him Hoffman's concerns should not be taken lightly, but at the same time whatever the results at Adepticon, nothing is going to get proven one way or the other there. If a Belle spam list wins it is not definitive proof that belles are OP, its just another data point which may support that hypothesis, just as if a Belle list doesn't win its not definitive proof that there isn't an issue with Belles. One tournament does not prove anything, unless we want to basically assume that there is a fundamental break in the system and ONLY factions or masters that are above the curve can win. Anyone who claims otherwise needs to also line up to clamor for Jakob to be cuddled hard, as I remember a high percentage of finishers in the UK GT were using him. Proving something is OP enough to cuddle on a printed physical model is going to take a year or more of cross meta support to even come close to justifying an errata, and the instant that happens the flood gates are going to open in ALL models that are above the curve. So while Hoffman's laser focus on just the belle issue can be seen as having merit looked at purely in a disconnected manner, and he has a point, to some extent, on the fact that it doesn't matter what other models may or may not be over the curve, it doesn't excuse the fact that belles might be as well, and might be in need of correction. Part of the problem, and its a small but significant part, is that once a model is printed for a particular ss cost it tends to skew what that ss cost can do and is worth. In this game system there is no objective, default rubric we can point to and say "this! This is THE definitive 5 point model!" We've even all seen how that works in effect, look at all the book 1 models that were fine when they were in their own little pond, but as soon as book 2 got printed the best models in that book redefined what a particular ss cost model was. We are even seeing it in the current edition in the Samurai. On paper Samurai are amazing for their cost to my eyes, but in effectiveness... What is the almost universal comment that comes up when the Samurai is discussed, "samurai are ok,... But they're kind of crap because for less cost I can get an Illuminated who are amazing" I hear a variant of that comment all the time, which means that the Illuminated is redefining what the expected ss cost of a model is. Just changing troublesome models might need to happen, I freely admit that, but don't forget those troublesome models also informed how other models got created. Look at a performer. Compared to a belle the performer is 1 df and wp up, 3 wounds down, same walk. Belles get companion, hard 2 wound, and pounce. performers get manipulative 13, don't mind me, and precious. Belles get a ml attack of 5 1/3/4, with a potential trigger to prevent you from walking away. Performers get ml 6 1/3/5 and a hit automatically inflicts poison 2. Belles get lure at Ca 8 and 18 inch range, with a trigger on success and double crow you drop a card. Perforners get Siren call, at Ca 6 and 12" range, and the fact its a push not a move, but they also get an auto trigger baked in that causes full poison dmg if you get hit with it, has a crow trigger to paralyze if you are in b2b with the performer, and a trigger on a ram to get a free swing if you are in ml range. Belles got a slow spell at Ca 5 vs wp, performers get seduction which needs a scheme marker, but hits all enemies in a 3" pulse for a wp 13 duel if get a deadly double negative twist to df an wp till the end if the turn. I think you'd have to be willfully myopic to argue that what the belle brought to the table for the same cost didn't have any bearing or effect on the performer, and even if the belle were found to be over the line, simply reducing the Ca to 6 wouldn't erase their effect from the game , as they already shaped how other models in the game developed. The fact remains that there are most likely multiple models that are above the curve from wave 1, which distort the game. The only way that ANYTHING about any of those models can be proven to require an errata is going to be compiled, and accumulated data from multiple cross meta tournaments. Again while I don't agree with him I don't feel the Hoffman's points can be just lightly ignored by brushing it off on simple causes. The only way we are going to know if something needs to be done is through multiple, multiple cross meta tourney results. I just felt some if the points needed to be raised. Ill get my popcorn and continue to watch now. Carry on. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mythicFOX Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 I'm very sorry to Fetid Strumpet, I just accidentally deleted his excellent post on this subject, and can't bring it back. :'( <mod shame> EDIT: Found out how to bring it back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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