Nix an the Red Joker

[ajay29]

Quick question, if an enemy model flips or cheats in the RJ for damage while within 3 of Nix, is it counted as a moderate+weak?

[Bahoola]

Yes, I do agree to that a RJ is its own thing and deserves a separated damage column since it deals S+W in dmg, plus your opponent aren’t allowed to cheat. So clearly it’s not a 11, 12 or 13.

 

The reason to why I stand in the M+W camp can be narrowed down to two things.

 

First of the keyword Sever. The RJ damage is not a Sever damage as from 11, 12 or 13. But to calculate your RJ damage you must use your Sever and Week damage as both where flipped as add them together. And since Nix is immune to the Sever part of that equation (with in 3” that is) it will be lowered to a M+W.

 

But that has been argued before, and obviously isn’t the hole truth. It can be interpreted both ways, and its their my second standing point comes in. When rules can be interpreted tow or more ways I ask my self how it was intended to be played and if one or more of the interpretation can be seen as loopholes.

 

Nix ability is a survival ability. And in my point of view, are intended to make him immune to all Sever damage regales of its source.

[Nagash1959]

As much as I want to believe that RJ would still be S+W, the chart doesn't actually read that way...

It's written as a number range has X effect. While the BJ and RJ are indeed their own entries on that chart, both the 11-13 and RJ both use the word Severe. Following that logic I see now Nix should effect the RJ in the same way, bringing it down to M+W, which in the end is the side of the debate I support.

If Wyrd tells me otherwise, I have no issue accepting that either.

But for now I'd play it as M+W.

[The Godlyness]

It's definitely a complicated issue, and I think it's a not particularly easy. On the one hand, noone seems to be arguing that applying Ice Gamin's Bite of Winter to an 11, 12 or 13 would negate Nix's ability. On the other, staging down a Red Joker goes to Moderate, not Severe. Though Nix's ability doesn't work as written exactly like that. Given that the card hasn't seen print yet, hopefully it'll be eratted one way or the other to be unambiguous before it does so.

Why would the ice gamins abilty effect this discussion? Its if a severe is delt not addtional damage from bite of winter or crit strike or sweet breads etc. Don't want rampant confusion going on.

Also

Weakness: If an enemy model within a3 would deal Severe damage, it deals Moderate damage instead.

Severe by itself is not done by the red joker. Severe plus weak was. You only do one damage source. Bj=no damage. 1-5 =weak. 6-10= moderate 11-13= severe red joker = severe + weak. So according to nix severe was not delt but severe+weak was. If i cant express my "interpretation" with this then so be it.

But i said my part quoted rules and can do no more. Guess we need a clarification.

[Bahoola]

Okay, to avoid arguing in circles here I will make one last entry. And it’s going to be very black and white to avoid confusing, even though it’s not a black and white question.

 

I like to address you Godlyness on referring to rules. A table is not a rule; it’s an aid to help us understand the rules. The text that explains how to read the table, that’s the rule. And if we can hold that for true, the text tell us that, when you flip/cheat a RJ you add your sever damage to your weak damage to get a number that will be the final damage done (be for armour and stuff).

 

To clarify even further. If you read the first sentence on page 52 (small book) it says; A damage flip is required when damage is indicated by three numbers separated by slashes. These numbers represent the damage’s severity from left to right as Weak/Moderate/Severe.

 

Witch makes sense since “no damage/1/2/3/1+3” is not listed on your cards. There are only three types of damage. Even the text about the read joker is referring to Sever (11-13) and Week (1-5) damage on page 52, same book, “The Red Joker always deals an amount of damage equal to the Severe plus the Weak damage.” It refers to it as Sever damage + Weak damage. And it means that before you have you RJ damage it is a Sever + Weak damage. So before you can add those to together Nix ability takes present and lowers the Sever Damage to a Moderated Damage.

 

Once ageing I just want to point out that, a chart, table, culms or what ever they might be is only an aid to understand the rules, the actually text that tell us what to do.

[ajay29]

Feel like I've opened a can of worms that's splitting people down the middle BUT I personally lean towards Bahoola's reasoning.

How do rules questions like this usually get resolved? Not familiar with the rules forums etiquette...

[The Godlyness]

So why add the weak. If your lowering it to moderate why stop there. Whats allowing you to add the weak? You just use nix abilty its severe +weak now its just moderate. Bam new interpretation.

[Mako]

Feel like I've opened a can of worms that's splitting people down the middle BUT I personally lean towards Bahoola's reasoning.

How do rules questions like this usually get resolved? Not familiar with the rules forums etiquette...

The only official word that truly answers such things is the FAQ, which isn't due for two more months.

In the meantime, people tend to argue in circles until someone can't act civil and the thread gets shut, or Justin steps in and gives a temporary answer to suffice until FAQ or card release time

But don't worry about the whole can of worms thing, you asked a question that (from the fact that there are several ways to answer it according to the forum) isn't as clear as it could be. Which means it can go on to be solved, and then it doesn't crop up repeatedly later on.

I'd suggest people just let this one lie if they've had their say, no doubt it's been seen and that means there's nothing more to be done until it gets an official response.

[Bahoola]

Never mind me, your right MAKO.

 

I'll stick to my word and leav this one aloen

Edited March 9, 2014 by Bahoola

[solkan]

Wouldn't the more consistent thing (as far as the chart goes) be to degrade a Red Joker to Severe (reduced from Severe+Weak) instead of Moderate+Weak?

[ajay29]

Wouldn't the more consistent thing (as far as the chart goes) be to degrade a Red Joker to Severe (reduced from Severe+Weak) instead of Moderate+Weak?

No I wouldn't say that at all. It's got nothing to do with "degrading", you just swap the severe element for a moderate element IMO

[Kadeton]

Yep, that's my reading also. Severe + Weak has the Severe bit replaced with Moderate damage, and the Weak is not modified.

[Nagash1959]

I don't have my book with me right now, but doesn't  Zorida have a defense trigger that would fall in with this conversation too? Something about mod/severe damage ending activations? If the Red Joker counts as it's own catagory it could be argued that her trigger wouldn't kick in for that as well.

[Dracomax]

I want to know where Wyrd said that charts clarify but aren't part of the rules.

 

I know that other companies follow that policy, but you can't assume that was Wyrd's policy just because everyone else does it. It's kind of moot anyway, though. The text does say that "The Red Joker Always deals damage equal to the Severe plus Weak Damage." This implies exactly what the chart clarifies, that it is not severe damage + weak damage, but that it is a separate type of damage that is determined by the numbers in the severe and weak damage. OTOH, it also clarifies that when it is staged down, it becomes moderate damage, implying that it is only a special sub-case of severe. In which case Nix gets moderate on a Red Joker. There actually isn't anything I can see that implies that you can separate the weak from the severe in such a way as to end up at moderate+weak.

 

Honestly, I tend to think the intention was for a critical hit to be all one damage total, rather than two separate damage totals that both hit, which is what would have to happen to reduce the Severe—but I can see how the other way could be justified by the rules.

 

I would tend to go with Moderate+weak until there is a specific ruling, because I don't play Nix, and when unsure, tend to go with what hurts me, and it seems in the middle. That doesn't mean I think it is right.

[The Godlyness]

I don't have my book with me right now, but doesn't  Zorida have a defense trigger that would fall in with this conversation too? Something about mod/severe damage ending activations? If the Red Joker counts as it's own catagory it could be argued that her trigger wouldn't kick in for that as well.

Zorida still has Regret? Thought that was a 1.5 thing. And to answer your question with a question. Did you flip moderate or severe or did you flip a Red Joker.

[Kadeton]

And to answer your question with a question. Did you flip moderate or severe or did you flip a Red Joker.

 

You can't "flip moderate or severe". You can flip a 12 and deal Severe damage, or flip an 8 and deal Moderate damage, or flip a Red Joker and deal Severe + Weak damage.

 

The only question here is whether dealing Severe + Weak can be separated into "deal Severe damage with bonus damage equal to the attack's Weak damage", or it can't, i.e. "deal an amount of damage which is neither Severe nor Weak but the sum of the two." That ambiguity can't be resolved by reading the rules.

[MasterDisaster]

Perhaps rather than raging around in circles for the next two months if/when this becomes a distinct possibility (i.e. when you are playing/facing Nix) you and your opponent discuss it and come to a conclusion before the game starts, if you can't decide, flip / roll off to determine the result. Until we get clarification fro man FAQ on this we have to try being civil regardless of our opinions on the matter. 

[The Godlyness]

You can't "flip moderate or severe". You can flip a 12 and deal Severe damage, or flip an 8 and deal Moderate damage, or flip a Red Joker and deal Severe + Weak damage.

 

The only question here is whether dealing Severe + Weak can be separated into "deal Severe damage with bonus damage equal to the attack's Weak damage", or it can't, i.e. "deal an amount of damage which is neither Severe nor Weak but the sum of the two." That ambiguity can't be resolved by reading the rules.

So does zorida still have regret? Also sum = + but i wont go any further. Wish candy still had regret.

[Nagash1959]

Yeah, she does.

Regret "after inflicting moderate or severe damage on this model, end the Attacker's Activation."

So answering the original question will answer this one too. We are actively preventing future questions/debates/arguments. We are good people.

[Dracomax]

You are good people. I plan on surviving in Malifaux.

[Nagash1959]

Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.

[Ausplosions]

Zorida still has Regret? Thought that was a 1.5 thing. And to answer your question with a question. Did you flip moderate or severe or did you flip a Red Joker.

He flipped a Red Joker.

Which is a Severe, plus a weak.

[The Godlyness]

Which by itself is is more than severe. That's why call it Red Joker. Just in case you forgot. There is even a chart. It tells you. And i left the answer ambiguous so they could hash out how they will play it till the issue is resolved. Telling them your opinion does nothing. But we still must accept that you have one.

 

also rats have this issue. i might pancake here maybe.

[Justin]

Perhaps rather than raging around in circles for the next two months if/when this becomes a distinct possibility (i.e. when you are playing/facing Nix) you and your opponent discuss it and come to a conclusion before the game starts, if you can't decide, flip / roll off to determine the result. Until we get clarification fro man FAQ on this we have to try being civil regardless of our opinions on the matter. 

 

I disagree.

 

The winner of this fight gets a sandwich.

 

 

GO!

[Ratty]

Don't mention SANDWICHES!!!

[The Godlyness]

well Justin you get a sammich you will be the only winner in this war