Nix an the Red Joker

[ajay29]

Quick question, if an enemy model flips or cheats in the RJ for damage while within 3 of Nix, is it counted as a moderate+weak?

[zFiend]

Good question. Or would it be counted as only severe?

[Patzer]

This question have been up for debate earlier, and the consensus there was that it did moderate+weak.

[Bahoola]

I would rule that it's treated as a RJ that dose Moderated+Weak dmg

[Tuttleboy]

I'm in the moderate + weak camp.

[Eyefink]

Hmm. I actually feel like the Red Joker would still deal severe+weak, but wouldn't belabor the point. I mean, you're not dealing severe damage then weak damage with a RJ, you're dealing it all at once; it's just calculated based on what the severe and weak damage values are for the Attack. Plus it's one card in a 54 card deck that would overwrite the Ability. Probably not worth arguing, though.

[Patzer]

Hmm. I actually feel like the Red Joker would still deal severe+weak, but wouldn't belabor the point. I mean, you're not dealing severe damage then weak damage with a RJ, you're dealing it all at once; it's just calculated based on what the severe and weak damage values are for the Attack. Plus it's one card in a 54 card deck that would overwrite the Ability. Probably not worth arguing, though.

"Jokers and the damage flip", p.47 in the rulebook, states: "The Red Joker always deals an amount of damage equal to the Severe plus the Weak damage. Damage that is staged down (such as models hit by blast damage) becomes moderate.

The rule seem to support both theories. It do say that it is damage equal to severe plus weak. However, it also says that damage can be staged down.

I would probarly still say that it should be severe plus weak, but I don't think it's a strong claim.

[ajay29]

Probably not worth arguing, though.

Well, if the difference is nix living from a moderate+weak and dying from a severe+weak, I'd say it is worth coming to an agreed conclusion.

[Ausplosions]

I would say it changes to moderate + weak.

[The Godlyness]

Nix the only being in Malifaux that says sod off to a red joker. But i could argue that severe was not flipped but a red joker was. Severe is 11/12/13. Jokers are jokers. It just applies severe and weak but itself is not...severe.

But not sure if it is worth my effort.

[Mastershake]

If the Red Joker dealt severe + weak armor would affect it twice. The Red Joker doesn't deal severe damage, it deals a separate number that's calculated using severe. My reading says the Red Joker is unaffected by Nix's aura.

[The Godlyness]

In damage calculation you add everything (crit strike etc) then after you reduce( armor incorp ) then its applied. So its not hit twice but i do agree it is its own thing not just severe.

[PraetorDragoon]

We played it as moderate + weak for a while now. Seems to be the most logical thing to apply. 

[rgarbonzo]

I think Godlyness has it right, the damage flip is Black Joker, Weak, Moderate, Severe, Red Joker. So a RJ is not a severe that would get reduced, it does more damage than a severe and is in its own class for damage flip.

[Thaarup]

Going by the Damage Chart (rulebook, page 46), there are five categories. As Nix ability only affects one of the categories (11-13 : Severe), so nothing to do with the Red Joker.

[Mako]

But the red joker applies Severe and Weak, so you are kind of hitting Nix with a severe and a weak.

 

The severe would then be reduced, but the weak would not be. So moderate and weak would make sense to me.

[The Godlyness]

It does a combined total so its technically more than severe. Its not a straight severe. Its better and its a joker why should he be immune.

[Ausplosions]

It does a combined total so its technically more than severe. Its not a straight severe. Its better and its a joker why should he be immune.

Why shouldn't he be? Why is Rasputina immune to flipping a Black Joker

[The Godlyness]

If she took decembers pawn and flipped it agaist nix would you still say it counts as just severe. Or is it a joker. Which has its own little column cin the rule book.

Rules guess a waste of ink to some people. Why use them one you can interpret how you will.

[Ausplosions]

So your interpretation is the only one that could possibly be correct, yes?

You have an opinion of what a Red Joker does according to the written rules, other people have another. How about you try not to degrade those other people's opinions by insinuating they don't bother to read the rules.

[The Godlyness]

It's right there. Clearly written. Not degrading anyones opinion i am clearly saying its wrong. You are allowed to think how you will write what you will.

And no my interpretation is not my way or the highway. But to claim Severe+weak=Severe. Is wrong. Nix reduces severe damage which is defined as 11/12/13. Where is the "wiggle room" its clear and concise.

So please calm .

[Mako]

In this case, I can see it working either way. Both sides have some validity to their arguments, and I can see it working either way. I know which I would pick, but I could see either being valid.

You are of course free to disagree with me and others, but declaring everyone is wrong and you know better is a dangerous path to go down. Perhaps you will be right, perhaps you will be wrong.

In the meantime, let's not be throwing comments like 'rules are a waste of ink to some people' about. They are not constructive, and if people can't be constructive and reasonable in their arguments I'll shut the thread, regardless of my opinion on who is right or wrong.

[dgraz]

Why would the RJ be different than the BJ? They are both their own entry on the table. The BJ isn't 'Weak reduced to zero' so why would the RJ be considered Severe?

 

I have to go with the RJ is it's own thing which is a total of whatever severe damage is, plus whatever weak damage is....it isn't severe...reduced to moderate...plus weak.

 

My .02.

[Mako]

True. That's why I can see it going that way.

But my reasoning was that the table says:

Black Joker No damage

...

11-13 Severe

Red Joker Severe + Weak

So it does actually specifically say severe in the RJ bit, just like it does for 11-13 (the black just says 'no damage', which to me makes it a different thing as it doesn't mention any other level of severity in it's damage list). If raspy flips the black, it counts as a red, so it's the same issue.

Is that severe + weak vulnerable to becoming moderate + weak (since you can't cause severe on nix), or is it just how the final number is worked out and not affected by that ability as a result? Like I say, I can see both sides on this one.

[Morgan Vening]

Is that severe + weak vulnerable to becoming moderate + weak (since you can't cause severe on nix), or is it just how the final number is worked out and not affected by that ability as a result? Like I say, I can see both sides on this one.

It's definitely a complicated issue, and I think it's a not particularly easy.

 

On the one hand, noone seems to be arguing that applying Ice Gamin's Bite of Winter to an 11, 12 or 13 would negate Nix's ability.

 

On the other, staging down a Red Joker goes to Moderate, not Severe. Though Nix's ability doesn't work as written exactly like that.

 

Given that the card hasn't seen print yet, hopefully it'll be eratted one way or the other to be unambiguous before it does so.

[Rathnard]

At the moment I'm leaning more toward Red Joker being a separate damage category, much like the Black Joker, but I can see the justification in interpreting it the other way too.