Francisco Ortega?

[dgraz]

No one (at least in this thread) is claiming he is an auto-take. I don't use him every time I play (unless it's an Ortega crew). But I strongly disagree that he is as 'chumpy' as Sonova is making him out to be. If that list of masters and his uses with them is all you can see him for then yeah I could see why you'd think he wasn't that great because that list lacks vision and creativity....it also completely ignores all of the soft work Frankie can do with area control and drawing attention.....the enemy doesn't want him in their face because of the damage he can do....so they have to focus on him to take him down....that's time they're wasting on him instead of other models. And, his ability to push friends out of melee.....saving them from death or allowing them to do other things shouldn't be so lightly dismissed either. You're also completely wrong about some other things.

 

Even with nothing else, he is quite tanky with Finesse, H2K and self-healing. Wp 6 is better than average Wp......and it's a lie to say the other Henchmen have better stats....he has the highest Ml of them all and only one has a higher Sh than he does......they are all Df 5, Wp 6....except Ryle who is actually 1 point less in both stats. They all have their own little Defensive abilities like armor, H2W, and/or H2K.......but none of them can force neg flips on melee attacks which is a huge ability (especially when combined with H2K).....it doesn't matter if he has one or two wounds less than the others if he isn't getting hit. When he does get hit, proper timing with SS prevention helps him stay above the H2K threshold so you still have to hit him twice more. Sure, you can focus to overcome Finesse, but then, you're not charging and you're getting only one hit......which isn't going to kill Frankie even with an RJ due to H2K.....then his Flurry response crushes you. Only a master has a real chance of taking him down in one go....but then they're wasting SS to overcome the neg flips and will be weaker later in the game. And if they don't kill him then he will mess them up good right back.

 

He is one of the best melee guys there is.......no one else boasts a Ml of 7 which ensures that he will hit most of the time....even with middling cards.  His base damage is 3/4/6 which he can get up to 5/6/8......two rams in hand of 9+ and 2 SS for suits kills almost any model in the game less than a master....even at weak damage.....and if they ain't dead, they ain't happy. And that's only on the Charge....if they allow him to get close or come at him to allow him to Flurry then they're done for. And, his high Ml stat and damage potential means that he can function well with lower cards on the attack....saving your higher cards for other things. He also packs a 12" range, Sh 6 gun for a little flexibility.....he won't be winning any awards with it maybe, but it's better in some ways than some of the other ranged attacks available.

 

And again, Belles and Beckoners being a hard counter is a lie....they are no more hard counters to him than to any other Henchman since the Wp's are all the same....Sidir is the only one that you can say is better at THAT ONE THING because he has Laugh Off......everyone else gets Lured just as easily. You can't say only he get's beat by it when everyone else does too.

 

I mentioned earlier that he isn't required to take Diestro.....it's great with the Ortega's....and decent with a crew with lots of guns....like Sonnia, McCabe, or Lady J. But he doesn't need it to be good. I do agree that his +2/+2 boost can become a bit of a trap if you just keep throwing it on your master. Putting it on other models is often the best use of it. Df 7 is fantastic in this edition, and there are a lot of Df 5 models out there (Df 7 on Sidir with Riposte and By Your Side....uhmmm, yeah)........and if they focus on Frankie to remove it....GREAT....that's his job.....he's the distraction. Murder Protege scheme....yes please......and while they're focusing on him, I'm completing objectives and earning VP with all those models you're ignoring.

 

I'll also strongly disagree that he is somehow lesser just because Wave 2 came out. Perhaps that was true back in 1.5 when you had 3 more books of power-creep, but I think it's ridiculous to say that there is already so much power-creep between wave 1 and wave 2 as to make wave 1 models obsolete.

 

Again, I don't think he is auto-include. I don't think he should be fielded at 12ss every time he is taken. I do think he is a solid choice in any list.....there is also no reason to discard some other Henchman just to take him.....it's okay to field a more elite crew and have two Henchman in one list. He is certainly a model to consider. But, if you can't figure out his play-style and can't imagine uses for him and/or are unwilling to....then by all means use different models......but don't play him down with false information or blatant exaggerations just because you don't like him.

[Mako]

Everyone take a step back, breathe, and relax.

 

Disagreeing doesn't make other people idiots. There are people that really like Francisco, people that think he's ok, people that don't like him. That's fine. If you think people are seeing things that aren't there, or aren't seeing things that are there, by all means explain it, get some debate going. But let's keep it friendly, alright?

[DeleteAccount]

Having faced Francisco a bunch, he seems to be the best wave 1 henchman, my guild opponent thinks the same. It's just the whole package he brings and him forcing my order of action to a degree of having to nuke him first if his bodyguarded model was my real target. Also, being able to just be placed and flush everyone out is HUGE HUGE HUGE table control, that ability has screwd me more than once. For 9 SS he is a steal thanks to how flexible he is and although not the hardest to take down, he'll make the opponent have cold sweat at the idea of leaving him with 1 wd and not sealing the deal.

 

Also hitting like a truck and diestro certainly help.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Except he isn't 9SS, he's 8.

[LunarSol]

Except he isn't 9SS, he's 8.

 

Pretty much every comparison is assuming you're taking Wade In.  It is a rather dramatic increase in his survivability; better, even, than giving him Armor.

[dgraz]

Pretty much every comparison is assuming you're taking Wade In.  It is a rather dramatic increase in his survivability; better, even, than giving him Armor.

Agreed. Wade In is.....in my opinion....an auto-include for him. I think most people here are just assuming it's there making him 9ss. The one that is open for debate on the auto-include side is Diestro which makes him 12ss.......sometimes it's not worth it as that is really high for an 8 Wd, 5 Df model....even with his other defensive abilities.

 

When you take a heavy shooting crew it is totally worth it in my opinion. I think he is certainly worth 9ss in other crews.

[Sonova]

Its all about the synergy. He brings 9+ss worth of synergy to the Ortegas, and I suppose he could bring value to other crews especially if you build around him. But there are better models these days. The acid test I use before putting anything 9+ ss on the table is "Is it better than X, given the strategy/schemes?". For me quite often X = Hans because Hans solves a lot of problems. Since wave 2 hit Hans has spent a lot of time on the bench. 

 

TBH i will probably be running him in the Vassal League but that's more because I will be giving Perdita a go than any real affection for the model.

[EnternalVoid]

Its all about the synergy. He brings 9+ss worth of synergy to the Ortegas, and I suppose he could bring value to other crews especially if you build around him. But there are better models these days. The acid test I use before putting anything 9+ ss on the table is "Is it better than X, given the strategy/schemes?". For me quite often X = Hans because Hans solves a lot of problems. Since wave 2 hit Hans has spent a lot of time on the bench. 

 

TBH i will probably be running him in the Vassal League but that's more because I will be giving Perdita a go than any real affection for the model.

 

I was originally going to stay out of the thread but this comment made me pause.  First let me say I will not tell anyone he is auto-included, but I think he is a model that is very useful and should not be dismissed just because of master selection.  Amusingly when I do the a similar test with my lists, he passes alot and models like Hans get left the wayside.  With out movement tricks, or more extra AP tricks like Obey,  I generally don't take Hans.  Mostly because I have punished my local scene alot for taking him by killing him before he can do much or finding some other way to neutralize him.  I rarely have found a model that competes with him for the job I have him do.  Fran has generally won out because he can be versatile and his reputation alone can be distracting.

 

I could go into a long rant on different uses that he brings to different lists, masters, strategies, and schemes but some have been said and some are pretty obivious.  Not to mention I suspect this thread has served its purpose.

[zFiend]

So Diestro is pretty much used with Francisco? Also I think that Wade in for 1ss is pretty much an auto-include as well.

[Joel]

I wouldn't use diestro at all. Although I have used Hermanos from time to time.  Push effects are always a nice trick to have up your sleeve.

[MasterDisaster]

I wouldn't use diestro at all. Although I have used Hermanos from time to time.  Push effects are always a nice trick to have up your sleeve.

 

I have also never used Diestro, I can rarely justify the cost of adding it to Francisco. If I want to anhiliate something in combat I get round it by teaming Santiago with Fran and letting them go to town on whatever I want riddled with bullet holes.

 

Fran works very well with just his Wade In but from time to time I give him a Lead Lined Coat if the points are kicking around spare. I've tried Fran with every Guild master I own except McCabe and he's always done pretty well, more so with Perdita but that should go without saying. He's incredibly well rounded and it's not surprising he crops up in all sorts of lists but he's rarely an Auto-Include for me unless it's Perdita on the table. Most Master's dedicated Henchmen offer more to the crew. 

 

Are there any Masters you wouldn't use him with? I can't see him offering much to McMourning's or Lucius's crews instead of Sebastion and Dashell respectively. Thoughts?

[Dracomax]

Diestro is used almost solely on Francisco because he is the melee guy in the crew. It used to be used on Perdita a lot, because it made her the best melee master i the game, before the errata.

 

It pretty much is only worth taking in a family oriented or Gun oriented crew, but when you are in such a crew, it is frequently worth it. it allows Franky to get in the middle of 3 or 4 models, engage them, and for the rest of your crew to still shoot them. it also makes it much easier to hit Sh attacks...

 

That being said, most crews are better off not taking it. Diestro also, unless I am mistaken, removes randomization from enemy attacks targeting him, so it's a bit of a double edged sword, and his own (0) only works against Ml attacks; He wants to be engaged. Still, Diestro sits at that place where it is too useful and devastating to be much less, but too high priced to take unless you are building a crew that can take advantage of it.

[dgraz]

 

That being said, most crews are better off not taking it. Diestro also, unless I am mistaken, removes randomization from enemy attacks targeting him, so it's a bit of a double edged sword,

Nope......it actually just about makes him immune to any shooting attacks once he is engaged.....and if he is engaged with nothing but enemy models.....well the enemy probably shouldn't shoot into that combat as they will only ever hit their own guys.

 

Diestro's Circular says that you don't flip a card for this model when randomizing. Which means it still counts as a combat, you still randomize, but if you don't flip a card for him he can never be the target. That's why Finesse is so boss.....if they can only engage him with Melee and they get neg flips at it.....well, hell yeah. The only time he suffers there would be against someone like Raspy and/or Sonnia since they don't mind if they hit they're own guys and the blasts will wear him out quick.

 

Don't forget that Diestro forces the enemy to be at a neg flip when defending against a Sh attack. 'Dita only has a Sh attack.....and gets built-in Crit Strike when engaged.......I've tag-teamed several masters with that combo......charge in 'Cisco for 2 attacks (he's got a decent chance to hit and do at least some damage to start the ball rolling)....then Companion 'Dita who charges in and the enemy is at neg flips against 'Dita's attacks now........call the grave digger.

 

I agree that Diestro is expensive and not worth it in every crew. Only once did I not take it with Ortegas and I regretted it. I will always take it with Ortegas. I've also only lost him early once.......every other time he has lasted at least til the end of turn 3....usually later....and every time he has paid for himself in my eyes.

 

I can't even comment on 'Hans solves problems better than 'Cisco'......I give up on that front.

[Dracomax]

Ah. so I was reading that wrong. it did seem a bit too easy to use against you for the price.

 

Still, I think even without it, Francisco is a good choice in many crews.

[dgraz]

 

Still, I think even without it, Francisco is a good choice in many crews.

Agreed

[zFiend]

Thank you Dracomax and Dgraz for great posts!

[LunarSol]

Thank you Dracomax and Dgraz for great posts!

 

I'm thoroughly enjoying seeing some strong discussions going on.

[dgraz]

Me too. I may be giving a hard time, but that's because of attitude. It's good to see both sides. Hey, some models don't work for some people. Whatever the reason.....personal dislike, play-style differences, bad luck with it.......it happens. There are some models I can't get good use out of, but I don't say the model is a bag o' crap......I'm willing to accept that it might be something I'm doing or not getting.

 

Malifaux has a lot of models like that. They're designed to do a certain thing....and possibly a certain way. If you try to use them for something else....or differently......then many times you won't get good use out of them.

 

That's why I'm such a huge Marcus lover. Because he has lots of choices, but needs to pick the right ones for the job.....he can't just take a 'standard' list.

[LunarSol]

In the absence of pre-built lists, its certainly very interesting to categorize models and do some direct comparisons for opportunity costs.  Generally speaking I've been comparing things in a sort of Infantry/Tank/Artillery kind of mindset, though there are certainly models that don't fit any of those categories.  It's quite interesting to compare some of the models simply based on some calculated statistics, though things like the damage spreads and the constant alterations to the probability from the deck make a lot of calculated numbers estimates at best.

[dgraz]

Yeah....somebody did that a while back with a Rock Paper Scissors kinda thing......where rock was tanky....scissors was killy.....and paper was control/buff/de-buff.

[Sonova]

Nope......it actually just about makes him immune to any shooting attacks once he is engaged.....and if he is engaged with nothing but enemy models.....well the enemy probably shouldn't shoot into that combat as they will only ever hit their own guys.

 

Diestro's Circular says that you don't flip a card for this model when randomizing. Which means it still counts as a combat, you still randomize, but if you don't flip a card for him he can never be the target. That's why Finesse is so boss.....if they can only engage him with Melee and they get neg flips at it.....well, hell yeah. The only time he suffers there would be against someone like Raspy and/or Sonnia since they don't mind if they hit they're own guys and the blasts will wear him out quick.

 

Don't forget that Diestro forces the enemy to be at a neg flip when defending against a Sh attack. 'Dita only has a Sh attack.....and gets built-in Crit Strike when engaged.......I've tag-teamed several masters with that combo......charge in 'Cisco for 2 attacks (he's got a decent chance to hit and do at least some damage to start the ball rolling)....then Companion 'Dita who charges in and the enemy is at neg flips against 'Dita's attacks now........call the grave digger.

 

I agree that Diestro is expensive and not worth it in every crew. Only once did I not take it with Ortegas and I regretted it. I will always take it with Ortegas. I've also only lost him early once.......every other time he has lasted at least til the end of turn 3....usually later....and every time he has paid for himself in my eyes.

 

I can't even comment on 'Hans solves problems better than 'Cisco'......I give up on that front.

 

Its not that Hans is better than Frankie. Its that Hans has a wider tool set. Back in wave one he was pretty much your only real option to deal with stuff like Pandora's Sorrow spam and Huggy in guild crews other than Sonnia and incorporeal in general. He also forces your opponents to play conservatively with stuff like necropunks, vultures and baby nephilem as scheme runners because he can shoot them off the table in 1 activation from anywhere on the table as long as he can draw LOS. This helps a lot in a crew that is typically going to be outnumbered and was slow as. 

 

In wave 1, I played Justice and McMourning a lot and in those crews, Frankie was typically just another body with a nice trick (+2/+2) because of his weak synergies with those masters and crew. He added no real value other than just another sword (albeit a very good one) and pistol into crews that are already bursting at the seams with swords and pistols.  I also found that his Df5 was sucking up all my stones so that wasn't an acceptable situation.  So I dumped him for Hans who helped me in dealing with fast scheme minions, ghosts and shooting into melee in general.

 

Now that the guild has access to a wider array of abilities and faster minions in general I am able to 'downgrade' Hans to Nino. 

[LunarSol]

I don't hate the RPS analogy, but its very combat oriented and can make it a little easy to forget that combat prowess isn't Malifaux's primary road to victory.

[dgraz]

Its not that Hans is better than Frankie. Is that Hans has a wider tool set. Back in wave one he was pretty much your only real option to deal with stuff like Pandora's Sorrow spam and Huggy in guild crews other than Sonnia and incorporeal in general. He also forces your opponents to play conservatively with stuff like necropunks, vultures and baby nephilem as scheme runners because he can shoot them off the table in 1 activation from anywhere on the table as long as he can draw LOS. This helps a lot in a crew that is typically going to be outnumbered.

 

Now that the guild has access to a wider array of abilities and faster minions in general I am able to 'downgrade' Hans to Nino. 

Ok.

 

I don't hate the RPS analogy, but its very combat oriented and can make it a little easy to forget that combat prowess isn't Malifaux's primary road to victory.

Agreed.........the 'P' part of it is pretty wide......that should be narrowed a little......something like Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock

[Sonova]

oops

 

[LunarSol]

Agreed.........the 'P' part of it is pretty wide......that should be narrowed a little......something like Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock

 

I don't think its necessarily the issue.  I avoid the RPS analogy because those things relate to most people on a very combat oriented "survival, denial, damage" concept and while you can certainly apply that to Malifaux models, in the end, no one wins by killing the most models (usually).

 

I think the real issue with describing Malifaux in RPS terms is simply that the definitions change with the different schemes.  Instead of "protection, control, damage" I think RPS has to equate directly to VPs as a system of "scoring, preventing scoring, and the prevention of scoring prevention".  I think often the "scissors" the offensive component of a crew in Malifaux is not the damage dealers, but the Infantry; the cheap bodies however you want to define them.  Survivable models are often still rocks, but mostly for their ability to engage an area and deny interaction.  It all changes depending on the schemes and strategies though.  In Turf War or Bodyguard, a highly survivable model might very well be your scissors.

 

That's why I've personally been trying to find different ways to seem model statistics to get an idea of what kind of roles they fulfill.  At the moment, I've been focused mostly on the Infantry (prizing speed, durability, and low cost), Tank (prizing durability, and damage output), and Artillery (prizing threat range and damage output) but I think there's definitely room for other categories, particularly in the support and denial categories.  Those are just categories Guild doesn't appear to be drowning in from what I've seen.