Pandora's Self Harm vs Seamus's 0.50 Flintlock

[Coweringomega]

I couldn't find where this was addressed previously, so I'm sorry if it was asked before.

Who's rule supersedes between Self Harm and the 0.50 Flintlock?

The flintlock rule says this action can only be used once per turn, however, Self Harm says that no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied.

Ultimately, if Pandora targets Seamus with Self Harm and succeeds forcing him to hit himself with the 0.50 Flintlock, can she do it again?

So if yes, then she can do it 3 times which is insanely powerful.

If not, and Seamus's rule prevails over Pandora's then if she activates before Seamus and makes him shoot the gun, since it says only once per turn, that should mean that the gun has fired and Seamus is unable to fire the gun this turn. Or if Seamus already shot, she would be unable to target him with Self Harm, I suppose.

So who's rule prevails here?

I'd lean towards it can only be shot once, because that makes the most sense (reloading and the power of the shot), but since Sam can shoot at burning dudes through walls, so I don't try to apply too much logic into these situations.

Thanks

[Fenton Crack]

I don't think that would be too much. Pandy first needs to take a Horror Duel then overcome Seamus Wp7 with Ca6 using a Attack which means cover would make this assault VERY costly. And if it is all good there is still prevention, Hard to Kill and the Hat for "Poor ol' Seamus" - and then he can utilize his awesome healing potential...

Anyway the wording is perfectly clear for me: Pandy doesn't actually use the gun's Action just the damage track so she can TRY to use that as many times as she can. In return this won't deny Seamus to use the gun himself.

Well, the fact that Justin clicked a "thank you" for this post may very we'll be indicative that Pandora's Self Harm was meant to operate as simply a damage track borrow, and it was felt multi-use flintlock was fine (or perhaps equating a thank you as an endorsement is reading too far in, but I'm not sure he'd click it for a point he disagreed with just because he liked the Csonti laid out the argument.)

I agree that Seamus is not necessarily dead in the water simply if Pandora can have multi-use flintlock, but it still seems a bit heavy handed to me. Sure she has to make the horror duel, but if anyone is going to pass a horror duel, it's Pandora with her Wp 7, and in the case of Self Harm, I would argue it actually helps her, as if Seamus is in cover her immediate push from Fading Memory may give her an open line with clear LOS before she "shoots". With each success of Self Harm she may have one less good card in hand, but each success also gives her a push that increases the chances that Seamus will not still be in cover on the subsequent shot, and Seamus is presumably losing good cards in the duel at a similar rate.

There could be, of course, a situation where Fading Memory is a liability, with a tight firing lane, where a push would have her LOS obscured making cover where there was none or would put Pandora in engagement (since Fading Memories says "immediately push" and has no "may" language in it like other abilities that would indicate the push is optional) but the push is "up to", so moving a tick more than 0" should not really cause her any ill effects in all but the most outlying corner cases imagine.

It would seem the strategy for Pandora would often be focus the first attack, to mitigate potential cover and/or impossible to wound, then follow up with a second shot, staying outside 6" to ensure you don't heal him through Feast of Fear on a miss. Might be tempting try and get him down to one wound from full by shooting three times though.

At the end of the day I don't play Seamus, and don't really have a dog in the fight (except in full disclosure I was the other at the game with Slapdrone and Omenbringer and was advocating the "one shot, period" interpretation, so it can be argued my ego may be tugging me in a direction to "be right"), but think fluff wise, one shot made sense, and it seemed the most fair. Morgan has indicated perhaps it's a psychosomatic reaction, which would be as good of an explanation as any I guess if the rule goes that way. The fact that there has been confusion I think would still warrant an inclusion in a future FAQ. Even if it is felt that as written it's one way or another, does not mean it will not be a frequently asked question and still potentially cause confusion.

[Cats Laughing]

A quick note, so it doesn't detract from the rest of this, but Fading Memories does not give Pandora a push when she uses her Ca based Self Harm/Loathing actions.

[Cats Laughing]

A quick note, so it doesn't detract from the rest of this, but Fading Memories does not give Pandora a push when she uses her Ca based Self Harm/Loathing actions.

[Carasz]

I have to agree with the sentiment that Self harm doesn't take the action, it only copies its damage track.

It might still be FAQ-worthy, because it seems its easy enough to misread, no matter the intended rules. This thread is evidence to that.

[Carasz]

I have to agree with the sentiment that Self harm doesn't take the action, it only copies its damage track.

It might still be FAQ-worthy, because it seems its easy enough to misread, no matter the intended rules. This thread is evidence to that.

[Fenton Crack]

A quick note, so it doesn't detract from the rest of this, but Fading Memories does not give Pandora a push when she uses her Ca based Self Harm/Loathing actions.

You are correct I always flip in my brain Incite vs. the Self Harm and Self Loathing, remembering it is a push for one and not the other, but then invariably think the push is for the "Self "actions, even though it should clearly be Incite with Wp front and center.

I'm going to have to either just keep Joel Henry's succinct FM list bookmarked on my phone or tattoo myself like in Memento.

Even gutting the "push" aspects to my post, I still feel that the "one shot" interpretation would be the most equitable, although at the same time get the feeling an official ruling may be to the contrary.

With the "one shot" read there is the issue of if Seamus activates first, Pandora cannot "shoot" him at all since the gun is "empty", and they may not be fair to her, or if she goes first and and will likely fail, she can keep throwing in disposable low cards or keeping bad flips knowing she will fail, but will empty his gin, giving Seamus potentially several turns without the use of this gun, so equitable arguments could be made on blithe sides.

Ultimately clarity and consistency is all we can ask for.

[Fenton Crack]

A quick note, so it doesn't detract from the rest of this, but Fading Memories does not give Pandora a push when she uses her Ca based Self Harm/Loathing actions.

You are correct I always flip in my brain Incite vs. the Self Harm and Self Loathing, remembering it is a push for one and not the other, but then invariably think the push is for the "Self "actions, even though it should clearly be Incite with Wp front and center.

I'm going to have to either just keep Joel Henry's succinct FM list bookmarked on my phone or tattoo myself like in Memento.

Even gutting the "push" aspects to my post, I still feel that the "one shot" interpretation would be the most equitable, although at the same time get the feeling an official ruling may be to the contrary.

With the "one shot" read there is the issue of if Seamus activates first, Pandora cannot "shoot" him at all since the gun is "empty", and they may not be fair to her, or if she goes first and and will likely fail, she can keep throwing in disposable low cards or keeping bad flips knowing she will fail, but will empty his gin, giving Seamus potentially several turns without the use of this gun, so equitable arguments could be made on blithe sides.

Ultimately clarity and consistency is all we can ask for.

[StuffedKiwi]

Hey everyone, did this get resolved at all? I didn't see anything in the May 1 FAQ, but maybe I just missed it? I'm a Pandora player with a potential game against a Seamus player this weekend, so if there is any official word I'd love to have it pointed out to me, one way or the other.

Thanks!

[Joel]

Pandora does not make the action, she merely uses the damage track from it. She can, therefore, attempt to self-harm Seamus multiple times with his flintlock.

Job done.

[tschrivener]

Okay, along these lines, what if Pandora uses Self Harm to have a Snowstorm use Ice Tornado.

The spell obviously does damage, but also includes the following verbiage:
"Models with the Heart of Winter which would suffer damage from this attack reduce the damage to 0"

Is that an effect, or a way of saying hitting something with Frozen Heart with a cold based spell does nothing.
There IS an effect component there, because the model with Frozen Heart is moved, and I'd guess that it would not happen.

But it seems to me that they could have said to just apply the damage track, and not bothered with the text on triggers and effects.   Just saying "apply the damage" would be clear.

 

[The Godlyness]

self harm takes teh damagae track. thats it. nothing else. NOthing else.  no slow, no push, no effect, no affect, no triggers, or blight, or burning or anything.  

 

the model is not damaged by ice tornado it is damaged by self harm. no attack called ice tornado was taken.

[Tuttleboy]

What the heck happened to this thread? Pages 2 & 3 are pretty much duplicate posts of the first page

[Rathnard]

Yeah, wierd. 

 

In any case, this thread has run it's course, so I'm locking it.