Pandora's Self Harm vs Seamus's 0.50 Flintlock

[Coweringomega]

I couldn't find where this was addressed previously, so I'm sorry if it was asked before.

Who's rule supersedes between Self Harm and the 0.50 Flintlock?

The flintlock rule says this action can only be used once per turn, however, Self Harm says that no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied.

Ultimately, if Pandora targets Seamus with Self Harm and succeeds forcing him to hit himself with the 0.50 Flintlock, can she do it again?

So if yes, then she can do it 3 times which is insanely powerful.

If not, and Seamus's rule prevails over Pandora's then if she activates before Seamus and makes him shoot the gun, since it says only once per turn, that should mean that the gun has fired and Seamus is unable to fire the gun this turn. Or if Seamus already shot, she would be unable to target him with Self Harm, I suppose.

So who's rule prevails here?

I'd lean towards it can only be shot once, because that makes the most sense (reloading and the power of the shot), but since Sam can shoot at burning dudes through walls, so I don't try to apply too much logic into these situations.

Thanks

[Coweringomega]

I couldn't find where this was addressed previously, so I'm sorry if it was asked before.

Who's rule supersedes between Self Harm and the 0.50 Flintlock?

The flintlock rule says this action can only be used once per turn, however, Self Harm says that no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied.

Ultimately, if Pandora targets Seamus with Self Harm and succeeds forcing him to hit himself with the 0.50 Flintlock, can she do it again?

So if yes, then she can do it 3 times which is insanely powerful.

If not, and Seamus's rule prevails over Pandora's then if she activates before Seamus and makes him shoot the gun, since it says only once per turn, that should mean that the gun has fired and Seamus is unable to fire the gun this turn. Or if Seamus already shot, she would be unable to target him with Self Harm, I suppose.

So who's rule prevails here?

I'd lean towards it can only be shot once, because that makes the most sense (reloading and the power of the shot), but since Sam can shoot at burning dudes through walls, so I don't try to apply too much logic into these situations.

Thanks

[Slapdrone]

I just ran into this last week using Seamus. There happened to be two Henchmen at the shop. After some discussion we all agreed that it made the most sense to have the flintlock just go off once per turn as per his card. Pandora got it off once and then had Seamus back hand himself twice.

[Slapdrone]

I just ran into this last week using Seamus. There happened to be two Henchmen at the shop. After some discussion we all agreed that it made the most sense to have the flintlock just go off once per turn as per his card. Pandora got it off once and then had Seamus back hand himself twice.

[WoeIsMe]

self harm does not actually cause seamus to use his pistol...it does however borrow the flintlocks damage profile.... so it does not count as seamus using it for the turn, and it does allow pandora to "shoot" seamus with it three times...its as nasty as it sounds btw...

I had asked this question in another post, as it came up in a game while i was using pandora and my girlfriend was using seamus....she was none to pleased with the aftermath

--Woe

[WoeIsMe]

self harm does not actually cause seamus to use his pistol...it does however borrow the flintlocks damage profile.... so it does not count as seamus using it for the turn, and it does allow pandora to "shoot" seamus with it three times...its as nasty as it sounds btw...

I had asked this question in another post, as it came up in a game while i was using pandora and my girlfriend was using seamus....she was none to pleased with the aftermath

--Woe

[EnternalVoid]

Sadly WoeIsMe is correct, Pandora can indeed make Seamus take the 4/6/8. Self Harm only says to apply the damage results from the chosen Action to the target, not that it counts as them attacking with the chosen action. It makes Pandora a mean master to Seamus, though Seamus can be a mean one to her as well as he can reduce her Wp, her primary defense with Sinster Reputation. Also his Wp7 vs Pandora's Ca6 on Self Harm makes it slightly favor Seamus in that regard.

[EnternalVoid]

Sadly WoeIsMe is correct, Pandora can indeed make Seamus take the 4/6/8. Self Harm only says to apply the damage results from the chosen Action to the target, not that it counts as them attacking with the chosen action. It makes Pandora a mean master to Seamus, though Seamus can be a mean one to her as well as he can reduce her Wp, her primary defense with Sinster Reputation. Also his Wp7 vs Pandora's Ca6 on Self Harm makes it slightly favor Seamus in that regard.

[Slapdrone]

Vicious. While I like the fluff aspect better, I understand interpretation of the action to the letter.

[Slapdrone]

Vicious. While I like the fluff aspect better, I understand interpretation of the action to the letter.

[Omenbringer]

I dont believe that is a correct interpretation (I was one of the Henchman in attendance with Slapdrone).

Pandora's Self Harm (and Self Loathing though for ) very clearly states in the first sentence;

Select a (1) AP Action on the target.

The selected action is being used, the rest of Self Harm/Loathing is just how it is to be resolved (i.e. the accuracy modifier, effects, triggers and such) against the owner of the action. Since Seamus' .50 Flintlock has the "once per turn" caveat in its description he should only be subject to it once (this is not an effect or trigger so isn't avoided by Self Harm).

Though I could definitely be wrong, this probably needs a faq entry one way or the other.

[Omenbringer]

I dont believe that is a correct interpretation (I was one of the Henchman in attendance with Slapdrone).

Pandora's Self Harm (and Self Loathing though for ) very clearly states in the first sentence;

Select a (1) AP Action on the target.

The selected action is being used, the rest of Self Harm/Loathing is just how it is to be resolved (i.e. the accuracy modifier, effects, triggers and such) against the owner of the action. Since Seamus' .50 Flintlock has the "once per turn" caveat in its description he should only be subject to it once (this is not an effect or trigger so isn't avoided by Self Harm).

Though I could definitely be wrong, this probably needs a faq entry one way or the other.

[Morgue]

That only works when you take it out of context

For reference

(1) Self Harm (Ca: 6:masks / Rst: Wp / Rg: :ranged10): Select a 1 AP action on the target. Apply the damage results of the chosen action to the target, no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied. The accuracy modifier is determined by the result of this duel.

It specifically states that no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied.

Pandora can slap Seamus 3 times with Self Loathing.

[Morgue]

That only works when you take it out of context

For reference

(1) Self Harm (Ca: 6:masks / Rst: Wp / Rg: :ranged10): Select a 1 AP action on the target. Apply the damage results of the chosen action to the target, no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied. The accuracy modifier is determined by the result of this duel.

It specifically states that no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied.

Pandora can slap Seamus 3 times with Self Loathing.

[Fetid Strumpet]

As much as I don't particularly like it, I agree with the original interpretation. While you are selecting a target (1) Ap ranged Icon action, it doesn't say to use that action, it just has that designation for Targeting. I do believe that Pandora can Self Harm Seamus with his gun as many times as she can successfully cast it. Wether it was intentional, or just an over look, or just a fact of playing with an abstract system, its what it is.

[Fetid Strumpet]

As much as I don't particularly like it, I agree with the original interpretation. While you are selecting a target (1) Ap ranged Icon action, it doesn't say to use that action, it just has that designation for Targeting. I do believe that Pandora can Self Harm Seamus with his gun as many times as she can successfully cast it. Wether it was intentional, or just an over look, or just a fact of playing with an abstract system, its what it is.

[Omenbringer]

That only works when you take it out of context

For reference

(1) Self Harm (Ca: 6:masks / Rst: Wp / Rg: :ranged10): Select a 1 AP action on the target. Apply the damage results of the chosen action to the target, no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied. The accuracy modifier is determined by the result of this duel.

Not at all out of context as the first sentence is complete. You have selected the action. The rest of Self Harm is in reference to how the action is to be resolved (which is a specific resolution rather than the general). It even states right there in sentence two; "Apply the damage result of the chosen action". This is an example of an action (Self Harm causing an action (.50 Flintlock) which leads us to this;

It specifically states that no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied.

The "Once per turn" caveat is not an effect or trigger but its own defined restriction (precedence set in the faq document).

"Effects" (as listed under Conditions found on page 52) are things that a model receives during an encounter." (which "once per turn" is not) while Triggers (page 29)"...changes the result of a duel, usually by giving one or more of the models involved an additional effect beyond simple success or failure. Most models possess one or more triggers, one of which can be declared when the model's duel total contains the appropriate suits." (which Once per turn does not do).

Once per turn is a restriction an not an trigger or effect.

Additionally, consider that their is no reason to include the "no other effects or Triggers from the chosen Action are applied." verbiage to Self Harm/ Loathing unless the action is considered to have been declared.

Again I may be wrong but a faq entry should probably be created (as that is the only official rules document aside from the books).

Edited January 18, 2014 by Omenbringer

[Omenbringer]

That only works when you take it out of context

For reference

(1) Self Harm (Ca: 6:masks / Rst: Wp / Rg: :ranged10): Select a 1 AP action on the target. Apply the damage results of the chosen action to the target, no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied. The accuracy modifier is determined by the result of this duel.

Not at all out of context as the first sentence is complete. You have selected the action. The rest of Self Harm is in reference to how the action is to be resolved (which is a specific resolution rather than the general). It even states right there in sentence two; "Apply the damage result of the chosen action". This is an example of an action (Self Harm causing an action (.50 Flintlock) which leads us to this;

It specifically states that no other effects or triggers from the chosen action are applied.

The "Once per turn" caveat is not an effect or trigger but its own defined restriction (precedence set in the faq document).

"Effects" (as listed under Conditions found on page 52) are things that a model receives during an encounter." (which "once per turn" is not) while Triggers (page 29)"...changes the result of a duel, usually by giving one or more of the models involved an additional effect beyond simple success or failure. Most models possess one or more triggers, one of which can be declared when the model's duel total contains the appropriate suits." (which Once per turn does not do).

Once per turn is a restriction an not an trigger or effect.

Additionally, consider that their is no reason to include the "no other effects or Triggers from the chosen Action are applied." verbiage to Self Harm/ Loathing unless the action is considered to have been declared.

Again I may be wrong but a faq entry should probably be created (as that is the only official rules document aside from the books).

Edited January 18, 2014 by Omenbringer

[Ausplosions]

It doesn't say that Pandora TAKES the 1 AP Action, just that she selects a 1AP action and applies the damage track.

She can do this as many times as possible.

---------- Post added at 09:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 AM ----------

All other Obey/Copy spells then go on to say something along the lines of "this model may TAKE the chosen action" or similar.

There is nowhere in Pandora's action that says she is using the Flintlock, but rather just it's damage profile.

It doesn't use its Sh, how can it be using the weapon itself.

This isn't really FAQ worthy, it's just reading.

[Ausplosions]

It doesn't say that Pandora TAKES the 1 AP Action, just that she selects a 1AP action and applies the damage track.

She can do this as many times as possible.

---------- Post added at 09:57 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:53 AM ----------

All other Obey/Copy spells then go on to say something along the lines of "this model may TAKE the chosen action" or similar.

There is nowhere in Pandora's action that says she is using the Flintlock, but rather just it's damage profile.

It doesn't use its Sh, how can it be using the weapon itself.

This isn't really FAQ worthy, it's just reading.

[Slapdrone]

I was ready to give it to Pandora until Omenbringer's last bit. I think the way he explained the "verbiage" and restriction makes the most sense so far and I'll go with it until I see something in the faq.

[Slapdrone]

I was ready to give it to Pandora until Omenbringer's last bit. I think the way he explained the "verbiage" and restriction makes the most sense so far and I'll go with it until I see something in the faq.

[Omenbringer]

It doesn't say that Pandora TAKES the 1 AP Action, just that she selects a 1AP action and applies the damage track.

That is your opinion (and no more correct than any others), I have already conceded that might be the correct interpretation however you are omitting a few things in its description and resolution that are fairly pertinent (and would not be needed unless it was considered an action).

There is nowhere in Pandora's action that says she is using the Flintlock, but rather just it's damage profile.

It doesn't use its Sh, how can it be using the weapon itself.

Specific resolution trumps general resolution. In this case the resolution of the slected (declared) .50 Flintlock action is using the result of the Self Harm duel to determine the accuracy modifier and damage in place of the normal opposed duel flip. This is an example of an action (Self Harm) causing another action (.50 Flintlock).

This isn't really FAQ worthy, it's just reading.

One could argue that all faq entries fall into that category.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Omenbringer

[Omenbringer]

It doesn't say that Pandora TAKES the 1 AP Action, just that she selects a 1AP action and applies the damage track.

That is your opinion (and no more correct than any others), I have already conceded that might be the correct interpretation however you are omitting a few things in its description and resolution that are fairly pertinent (and would not be needed unless it was considered an action).

There is nowhere in Pandora's action that says she is using the Flintlock, but rather just it's damage profile.

It doesn't use its Sh, how can it be using the weapon itself.

Specific resolution trumps general resolution. In this case the resolution of the slected (declared) .50 Flintlock action is using the result of the Self Harm duel to determine the accuracy modifier and damage in place of the normal opposed duel flip. This is an example of an action (Self Harm) causing another action (.50 Flintlock).

This isn't really FAQ worthy, it's just reading.

One could argue that all faq entries fall into that category.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Omenbringer

[Coweringomega]

Omen, I also think that it should be played as once only, just as the action itself states.

However, from what I can tell, as the card reads, she isn't actually taking the action. She is simply selecting the action, then applying the damage track from the action. The action itself is never used. Thus, she can use it 3 times.

[Coweringomega]

Omen, I also think that it should be played as once only, just as the action itself states.

However, from what I can tell, as the card reads, she isn't actually taking the action. She is simply selecting the action, then applying the damage track from the action. The action itself is never used. Thus, she can use it 3 times.