Malifaux and Race

[SpiralngCadavr]

Don't forget the LeCroix family

Given the bayou thing, I always assumed that was supposed to be a nod at Cajun, not (ethnic) French

[Helm]

Characters are and should be as developed as possible, like real people. WHile there are some people who are defined by their culture/background, most people and good characters are shaped by them, but are more than that. People from any nation or background are far more complicated and complex than we give them credit for, and a good creator will always try and define them by how they are different from others and how they grow, rather than how they are the same.

I think that this pretty much defines the problem, assuming that a problem does exist.

We're playing a miniatures game where we put models down and play games with them. Malifaux is well-known for being a character-based game, but ultimately it's a game and not a novel. Even with the wealth of fluff we have, a lot of people who play don't actually buy every big rulebook and read up on every character. Even if they *did* do that, you're never going to find a detailed background for Joss or Kade or Yamaziko; anyone who's not a Master gets a few lines beside their stat card and gets to turn up in the occasional story.

We still don't know basic facts such as how Viktoria got her hands on the Masamune and how the damn thing works; going indepth into cultural details isn't possible in the current scope of the game. To get characters to *feel* fleshed-out on the table and in the fluff requires a preexisting framework, and stereotypes are extremely useful in that regard. Once we know about Zoraida being a voodoo witch or Nicodem being a gentleman undertaker, we've got 70% of the character's life sorted out and their personality can ably fill the other 20% or so.

As an aside, if you want a really fleshed-out cultural setting, take a look at Battletech. It'll take you a while, because the fluff for that game has been building for years, and it goes to the extent of having many Battletech novels and an old cartoon series. That's the kind of effort you need to pump in to resolve these issues within the setting of a tabletop game, and I'm not sure Wyrd has the resources for that.

[Iron Heel]

This is always and interesting discussion and I like seeing it here (despite others thinking there is no place for it in a gaming forum).

Maybe it's like Highlander, and there can be only one. So far we haven't even gotten the two of any one group to make it Noah's Ark. It's either just one, or omg-look-how-many-ten-thunders-there-are!

LOL *grin*

First, yes, I would like it if there were a few more less-stereotypical non-white characters in Malifaux, but I think there are already a few very interesting ones. I think Joss is pretty nuanced, and think that "Injun" does some interesting stuff for his character and speaks to the setting. I think that Marcus has definitely evolved into an interesting character that doesn't really speak to his origins….

… I think it's wrong to ignore race, because with race comes history and context, and everything else.

Let's not bull**** around-

…But Kang? I've really never seen an Asian character like Kang before in western media. There's nothing particularly Asian about him, he doesn't have any kung fu abilities, and he isn't good at math. He's just a bad-ass leader of men. An everyman. The common man. The average hero. That's typically the position a white guy holds..

Kang, Joss, and Marcus jump out to me too as breaking stereotypes (that promulgate in the US at least); and I think that is good. However, there is a fantasy/historical balance to be struck. Understanding how a particular character broke through the expectations of the dominant class at the time (White men with $) will flesh-out their characters and make them even more interesting. As noted by others here, choosing to dress outside of what folks expected was a strong social/political statement.

When I read the blurb for Kang, he seemed like a hero out of a Maoist drama though. ☺

Should I be offended that the only German Crew in the Game are WWI Type military special forces reducing the german input to Malifaux to military Tec and prowess ? NO because they are awesome ! (And yeah we did kinda start 2 world wars...)

The thing that many folks miss in this discussion is that being a person in the dominant group gives a level of resilience to stereotypic portrayals of your own group; this is not the same as other groups with less power having portrayals of their people pushed by members of a dominant group for mass consumption. I am primarily of German descent and don’t take umbrage with the VonSchill portrayal. However, the graphic for the Cleveland Indians is an embarrassment and I am constantly amazed that it still exists….Yes, I did just open that can of worms.

…Portraying a black man as poor and angry really isn't racist. Many black men in the US are poor, and many of them are angry. Not portraying the reasons they are angry, not developing them beyond the "poor and angry" stereotype is what makes it racist. Assuming that a black man you meet poor and/or angry is racist.

I see what you are saying, but one must be careful when going down this road. Yes poverty in the US is more concentrated in the African American community and identifying that is, of course, part of addressing the structural reasons for it existing and continuing (these things don’t just kinda happen). But when TV execs use this as a rationale to make all the criminals black and brown on TV shows because of those true stats, that has some affects too. I am an educator in an urban public school district and have worked at a few schools in my career, each with a unique ethnic character, and I can tell you the level to which kids get bombarded with stereotypes of who their people are does affect them and affects how they anticipate others (White people, like me) will perceive who they are and what they do.

All that said, I think Wyrd has made good progress on this front (especially relative to the industry in general). I don’t think it is a coincidence that Malifaux has many positive and powerful female characters (sure mixed in with some cheesecake) AND I’ve seen many posts about how there seem to be a higher % of females playing this game than others. Personally, I think gaming is enhanced by a wider ethnic and gender player base…how “your” group is portrayed in a game will affect whether you want to play it.

[rsteelrose]

Given the bayou thing, I always assumed that was supposed to be a nod at Cajun, not (ethnic) French

I stand corrected

[Dracomax]

@Iron Heel: Note, my point was specifically that the character having the stereotype, by itself is not a bad thing. When all of the characters from that group have the same stereotype, unless there is a justified reason for it, it's a problem. If both all of your criminals are black, and none of your non-criminals are black, that's poor storytelling for the sake of stereotyping. I'm not arguing that there are no problems with stereotypes. Just that when we reject them out of hand, it can be as bad as relying solely on them.

And, yes, media can and does influence people. The problem isn't the use of stereotypes in media, but the reliance of stereotypes in media. Or, to put it another way, the fact that media companies are cheap, lazy and market focused, with the result being lowest common denominator writing. In that environment, using stereotypes wrong flourishes.

[CrouchingMoose]

Okay, i've read through this and come to the decision that I don't want to be offensive to anybody with my models any more. That's why when I get home tonight, I'm pulling all of my models out, green-stuffing over the faces and revealing body parts so there are no facial features or overly exposed skin, file down anything that could be used to determine gender, and painting all still showing flesh to be the same unified grey color with little to no definition.

There's nothing offensive left, right? RIGHT?

[Helm]

Okay, i've read through this and come to the decision that I don't want to be offensive to anybody with my models any more. That's why when I get home tonight, I'm pulling all of my models out, green-stuffing over the faces and revealing body parts so there are no facial features or overly exposed skin, file down anything that could be used to determine gender, and painting all still showing flesh to be the same unified grey color with little to no definition.

There's nothing offensive left, right? RIGHT?

All the OP asked for was

A sniper from India. A Japanese poker mage. A native American construct maker. An African super spy. I could go on and on.

It's okay. It's really okay.

[Iron Heel]

@ Dracomax:

I think I understand your point. We are trained to organize the information around us (visual, auditory, etc) and our ideas about all that as well as our ideas about those ideas into categories as a way of making sense or the world around us and our place in it. My point was that stereotyping of "X" people has deleterious effects when viewed in-situ within society as opposed to looking at it as a "concept" devoid of important contextual factors. That is what I intoned was the danger in this line of reasoning. Note that saying it is a danger is not the same as me saying that you are falling into the trap as I don't believe that you are.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Iron Heel

[Dracomax]

All the OP asked for was

It's okay. It's really okay.

Alternately, could we get white guys dressed up as 1) an American Indian, 2) a cowboy 3) a construction worker, and 4) a dude wearing leather? They could have a sonic attack.

@Iron Heel. Gotcha. I understand what you are saying. And yes, it is a danger, but it's a necessary danger when dealing with...well anything. As it is an inevitable consequence of the very factors that allow us to function to stereotype and profile(Generalization, the reason that you recognize a couch and a chair as both things which can be safely sat in, also the reason that cops pull black people over more often than white.) we can't distance it from the human condition.

My point, at heart, is that it is a tool, if a dangerous one. When misused, it has the potential to cause untold pain and misery—much like dynamite. When used properly, it not only allows us to understand the world around us, but it allows us to create and understand characters and people better. The key is teaching people the difference between creating or enjoying a character with stereotypical qualities, and stereotyping people because they display superficial qualities of the stereotype.

The first is too valuable to be thrown out, even if it should be used with caution. The second is a tragedy waiting to happen.

[Ausplosions]

I hate all Races I am not part of.

Like the 100mtr sprint, or the one with bikes.

Those races are real bastards.

[TarlSS]

When I read the blurb for Kang, he seemed like a hero out of a Maoist drama though. ☺

It would seem like that right? But I would disagree. I've seen -a lot- of Maoist dramas and haven't encountered any heroes like Kang. I mean, one main difference is that he is a musclebound hulk. Most Maoist heroes are family men of average build..there isn't like a Jean Val Jean type.

He -does- fit in the same role of Cyclops from XMen though, so that's a Russian stereotype. The story is very similar. Same with Jean Val Jean from Les Miserable, although Kang is probably less stupid. So Kang fits white-guy stereotypes more than Asian..which subverts the stereotype.

In fact, Misaki and Mei Feng also subvert the stereotype. Mei Feng's outfit and mini portrays a "Dragon Lady", while Misaki is dressed in garb typically reserved for royal handmaidens or frail waifish girls. And yet, Mei Feng's bio states she is a rough and dirty- fighter for the common man who is also a scientific genius and beholden to the Oyabun, while Misaki is a devious badass that kills everyone.

Typically, the dragon lady is a cold and uncaring tyrant with relentless ambition, and the handmaiden is meek and helpless. The fluff subverts the stereotype that might be perpetuated by the looks of the mini.

I think with subversion so prevalent in these key Malifaux characters, I could hardly accuse the setting of being racist.

[Linus Mcmold]

Just in case this thread gets locked before I finish reading it, I wanted to say that I'd like to see a priestly sort of character in Malifaux.

Wild West priest would be a great stereotype for a miniature to get based on. Maybe it would even be cool if he/it would an Amish preacher.

[Demota]

Just in case this thread gets locked before I finish reading it, I wanted to say that I'd like to see a priestly sort of character in Malifaux.

Wild West priest would be a great stereotype for a miniature to get based on. Maybe it would even be cool if he/it would an Amish preacher.

It is kind of a shame that religion in Malifaux is generally pretty glossed over. I can understand why they did it, since religion can be a subject even touchier than race, but I don't think people would terribly mind say, some firebrand preacher with the Good Book in one hand and a Collier in the other, reading passages aloud and firing his gun at the dramatic points. That much, at least, could be done without going into tremendous detail about what the major religions would be like in Malifaux after the history became alternate history.

[dgraz]

[Iron Heel]

The absence of religion also struck me about this setting, but I understand why they don't want to touch that...especially in the US.

Where would a firebrand preacher fit?

The Guild perhaps, but they are so corrupt that a true believe would probably strike out on their own...which means that this preacher would be an Outcast! So you'd have a crew where you have a Preacher working with soulless abominations and beasties (demons) from the void?

All that said...even if they don't show in the game, it would be nice to see clergy in the fluff as they seemed to be around all over the place in Wild West movies. :1_Happy_Puppet2:

[Hagisman]

Religion is one of those details that a lot of RPG's in the past had to separate themselves from. I think D&D stopped calling Gods Gods and instead refers to them as Deities in order to separate them a step further from actual religions.

I would like to see how a world where magic is possible approach miracles and magic. Considering the December Acolytes being very much a Cannibal Cult I see a bit of it already touched on, but not overtly.

Going to what another poster touched on earlier. Its not about the stereotypes but the dimensions of the characters. Yes, many of the Ten Thunders can be seen as stereotypes, but in the storyline they have a lot more depth than any of the characters from the Dime Store Novels that they are paying homage to.

Reading Perdita's storyline in the M2e rulebook aside from the names nothing came across as stereotypical, please speak up if you did. In fact she showed a strong attachment to her family as well as an eagerness to save an ally, immediately after waking up from a coma. I would say almost none of her actions in the book could be seen as stereotypical. Sure she was a little bit hotheaded, but all heroes are.

[i_was_like_you]

Okay, i've read through this and come to the decision that I don't want to be offensive to anybody with my models any more. That's why when I get home tonight, I'm pulling all of my models out, green-stuffing over the faces and revealing body parts so there are no facial features or overly exposed skin, file down anything that could be used to determine gender, and painting all still showing flesh to be the same unified grey color with little to no definition.

There's nothing offensive left, right? RIGHT?

I'm offended by androgyny.

[Iron Heel]

I'm offended by androgyny.

[scuttlebut]

Just in case this thread gets locked before I finish reading it, I wanted to say that I'd like to see a priestly sort of character in Malifaux.

S'up

[Linus Mcmold]

---------- Post added at 12:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 AM ----------

On the more serious note, I have something to say over this race topic.

Race is a social construct and not a scientific fact (not even in social science).

On the other hand ethnicity easily oversimplifies background of any "cultural" background and I don't see any place for political correctedness inside a makebelieve gameworld with its own alternate history and ethnicities. A community of people can create an ethnicity through institutions if it existed for some generations (several centuries, give or take).

Then there are mixed ethnicities and you also have Neverborn and Gremlins which should also have their varied cultural backgrounds. That seems a bit too mutch to put inside a game with 30+ masters.

Good thing that Hagisman mentioned Cult of December, because that's an ethnicity I'd like to see more of. There were male priests mentioned in the fluff for that matter and I can see one as a model.

Somebody mentioned that there are no Middle Eastern cultures present in greater quantities in America of Victorian era and I will disagree and point to Jewish culture/ethnicity which existed in America as early as 17th century.

And nobody mentioned Colette Dubois who probably came to Malifaux straight from Moulin Rogue.

Having all ethnicities inside a game is too difficult and there are a lot of cultural backgrounds inside Malifaux as it is. I'd rather have an interesting character without an Earthside cultural background and with a rich character background...

I could also say that I miss people of Slavic descent and of one that isn't Russian (since I'm from Croatia, but probably not many people know what that is), but that would be stretching it alot since great European migrations started a couple of decades later.

But since Malifaux gets a ritch influx of convicts, you can see people like Rasputina, Zoraida (which could be of Moorish, Gypsy or Latin American descent from her name) etc.

People already said a lot about how Wyrd crew have covered multiculturalism through varied sterotypes with a lot of dignity and I don't have much to say about that since I agree with what has been written. There was some mention of gender, religion (which is intetwined with multiculturalism) and LGBT topics (which could easily make an appearance inside the Gremlin faction) and those can also add to the ritchness of character without labeling a character through some sort of stereotype or out of political correctness

(for which reason I assume that Dumbledore is gay).

Anyway, Malifaux already has a ritch pallete of characters and I suppose it will only get ritcher (if that's a word) with new Wave 2 models. I doubt that we'll get only generic "white" people in it.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Linus Mcmold
spacing

[G. Footman]

The only irish guy is a phsyco killer who likes dead women.

we all know he should be drinking heavily and starting fights

[Matney X]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]15777[/ATTACH]

S'up

I was thinking about Christianity and Malifaux a little while back. The Bible is pretty clearly against witchcraft and necromancy, and I believe there's an argument on whether Christ's salvation would extend off Earth and into Malifaux (my bro and I got into a discussion about that in regards to Christianity and Star Trek, but that's for another day). Also, the Christian revivalism in the US didn't start until the early 20s so it's unlikely anyone but Catholics would send someone into Malifaux.

Not that that would discount a priestly character, it's just something to think about.

[Thaarup]

There is also the whole question about what kind of religion exist in earthside Malifaux? If people can use magic maybe they don´t believe in a divinity or maybe there are a multiple of Gods that exist in some form like the Tyrants did/do in Malifaux....

Anyhew there are a lot of different nationalities that don´t exist in the game (Scandinavians, Italians, Greek and so on) and maybe those countries don´t exist in that world either. I haven´t really read much about how "Earth-like" the world is? For example, there doesn´t seem to be an USA but instead the Guild are in power on the (North?) American continent.

[scuttlebut]

I was thinking about Christianity and Malifaux a little while back. The Bible is pretty clearly against witchcraft and necromancy, and I believe there's an argument on whether Christ's salvation would extend off Earth and into Malifaux (my bro and I got into a discussion about that in regards to Christianity and Star Trek, but that's for another day). Also, the Christian revivalism in the US didn't start until the early 20s so it's unlikely anyone but Catholics would send someone into Malifaux.

Not that that would discount a priestly character, it's just something to think about.

I posted a pic of a (Rick) Priestly character

[Hagisman]

The only irish guy is a phsyco killer who likes dead women.

we all know he should be drinking heavily and starting fights

McMourning