M2E Scale

[i_was_like_you]

Ruleswise, are we taking into account how difficult it's going to be for crews of ever-increasing base sizes to even maneuver? "Ooh, this big model looks pretty" isn't going to trump oversized models not being able to move around the board or avoid becoming engaged to multiple extra models in combat that their smaller selves would have avoided. Bigger bases may necessitate sparse terrain to even allow movement. But we'll have to see the long term effects first.

[graeme27uk]

From a modelling perspective bigger is better. From a gaming perspective this doesn't work...

[mythicFOX]

This in one post sums up my concern about this whole debate;

Ruleswise, are we taking into account how difficult it's going to be for crews of ever-increasing base sizes to even maneuver? "Ooh, this big model looks pretty" isn't going to trump oversized models not being able to move around the board or avoid becoming engaged to multiple extra models in combat that their smaller selves would have avoided. Bigger bases may necessitate sparse terrain to even allow movement. But we'll have to see the long term effects first.

In the context of one model going from a 40mm to 50mm base you're talking about needing to change terrain 'to even allow movement' and talking about crews being unable to manoeuvre. It's a huge hyperbolic over-reaction for such a small thing.

You're grasping at straws to try and make this into an issue.

[i_was_like_you]

Actually, I'm referring to the Seishen being far to big for their britches, but we shall see.

[Fenton Crack]

Revisionist "Pass Through" for everybody may be in order.

[RagingRodian]

I think the point is to keep it from becoming an issue again. The metals had some off sized models. They looked cool, yeah, but were still oversized. Now that the model line is being redone why repeat the mistakes of the past?

Also, this game isn't like Warhammer or 40k. I those games you can use whatever base came with the model, and in some cases it may be a slight advantage (or disadvantage) having an older model rather than a new one. Malifaux specifies base sizes, and if it has to potentially change base sizes on its players due to production mishaps that makes players have to look at rebasing their existing models. No matter how you look at that it sucks.

We also want to avoid models that are absurdly oversized for their bases. That just makes Wyrd's quality control look bad.

[Severino]

The thread talking about the M2E brass arachnid not fitting on a 30mm base was closed and redirected to this one, so I'm asking here. How the hell do you fit it on a 30mm!? I followed the online instructions perfectly, and the back two legs are so widely spaced theres no way it'll fit on a 30mm. I tried putting the legs on in several different combinations, but since they're ALL different it still didn't solve my problem.

This is one huge model for a 30mm, I really think whoever re-designed the Brass Arachnid kinda went overboard. It's supposed to be a totem and an earlier design of steampunk arachnid (which the old model represents perfectly). Instead it looks like a replacement for the Large Steampunk Arachnid. I dread to see how big they'll make THAT model now, but it has to be bigger than the BA.

[PositronMike]

I am having the same problem with basing the brass arachnid. My current plan is to try posing it so that it looks like it is rearing up and then pin it to the base through the spike at the back of the model.

[Gorbad]

Making an early version big makes sense. Miniaturisation is hard, however there is no way the model fits on a 30mm base. Even a 40mm is a little on the small side and it easily fill up a 50mm base. Cojo's base was changed, maybe the Brass Arachnid should be too?

[Fenton Crack]

Making an early version big makes sense. Miniaturisation is hard, however there is no way the model fits on a 30mm base. Even a 40mm is a little on the small side and it easily fill up a 50mm base. Cojo's base was changed, maybe the Brass Arachnid should be too?

I would be concerned I they updated the base size I do far as how it would affect play. The Brass Arachnid's main play style (IMHO) is to just stay out of trouble and deactivate Howard or Joss on his turn. Increasing his base size is going to make him a bigger target that is going to have a much harder time staying out LOS.

[Gorbad]

I haven't played with my Ramos set yet, I've just assembled the models and clearly there is a problem if I either need to build up/extend the base or convert the model to make it fit onto the base, let alone fit comfortably/look good on the base.

[Severino]

This is getting ridiculous now. I went started assembling my Death Marshals today, and one of them is MASSIVE compared to the other two. I'd say about 50% bigger at least. Just look at the coffins!

And the guns:

(Can't for the life of me figure out why the forum won't let me link upload pics. Resized, changed format etc.)

If this was a stylistic choice, it was implemented quite badly. Not just the Death Marshal, but I've seen pics of the big Sorrow. I'm not using my plastic Brass Arachnid, I prefer the original. I'm just going to use it as another LSPA and be done with it, but I'm almost certain the BA is another victim of scale too.

Someone said earlier that it looks like they used the digital renders to print from, and the figures in the foreground are clearly larger than those in back. I think they have the right of it. But it costs a lot of money to re-tool a mold, so these are "stylistic" choices :facepalm: The Viks were too obvious a mistake, so they actually had to fix that. I can understand that it's not worth re-tooling an entire mold when just one figure is out of proportion, but it's ridiculous to assert that they were deliberately made out of scale.

What is wrong with the new plastics anyway? The scale problems are much worse than they were with the original metal sculpts (which I never had a problem with).

[edonil]

Just because you didn't have a problem with the scales of the original metals doesn't mean others didn't. Ht 1, for instance, is something that hasn't had any meaning with the Effigies, or a bunch of models. Not to mention issues of old models where the heads and hands wouldn't match the rest of the body, which is something that has largely disappeared, especially compared to other lines.

Nathan has stated multiple times, the Death Marshal and the Sorrow (which incidentally it's a small one and two large ones) were on purpose. The Viks were not, which is why there was a change.

Myself, I like the fact that not everyone is exactly the same size. I also like the size of the plastic models. I know I'm apparently in the minority of those who speak up, but it's the reality.

[RagingRodian]

I am with you on the odd Effigy heights, but heads and hands not matching bodies?

The Death Marshall thing was noted as being intentional, but mentioning the story as to why there is a giant Death Marshall before it was released would have went a long way towards minimizing people asking why he is so out of scale. Waiting until afterwards, even if it was intentional, makes it seem like a "Oh, we meant to do that..." type situation.

When it comes to scale going smaller is actually more forgiving. Generally, the noted scale (say, 30mm) is for a six foot tall man. It is pretty rare to go much larger than that in real life, but it is very common to be shorter.

[graeme27uk]

I can see this from two view points.

1) Malifaux is not governed by the size of the model in terms of LoS. Just base size has a game effect. As such this does give designers a bit more freedom in the size of models they are creating. Just because it's Ht 1 in game does not mean it has to be smaller than other models. Makes it easer to paint being bigger. I am in favour of bigger models. I quite like the 54mm scale but those games are expensive and rare. Though 54mm scale Malifaux would be quite something!

2) However, there is a preconception that Ht 1 will be smaller than Ht 2 and so forth. It creates a visual that sort of unifies a crew and gives the players a visual reminder. Why not make gremlins "normal" size... sort of Lenny sized all round. Would again mean more detail and easier to paint. Effigies and the BA are supposed to be Ht 1 but are quite obviously much bigger in physical model. It does get in the way of the game when models do not fit properly on their base and by properly I mean actually look like they are supposed to fit on that base size rather than "oh yes... three legs fit and the rest sort of hangs there". Not fitting on the base properly can mean that models when playing don't go round scenery or "fit" in gaps that they are supposed to. Whilst I think the BA model is great as a model in itself, I don't think it fits with what is conceived to be the BA in most player's eyes. The over-sized Death Marshall reminds me of a scene from Father Ted where Ted is trying to explain the concept of perspective to Dougal...

[OTP]

I hope they don't change the brass arachnid, my original one would be TOTALLY lost on anything larger - mind you that doesn't seem to be a concern (see Ikiryo, whose original will also be totally slot on a 50mm)

[Math Mathonwy]

Nathan has stated multiple times, the Death Marshal and the Sorrow (which incidentally it's a small one and two large ones) were on purpose. The Viks were not, which is why there was a change.

The problem with the Death Marshal is that everything on him is bigger. If he was just a giant of man, that'd be one thing, but his weapon is bigger, his coffin is bigger, his chains are thicker, his lock is bigger, his flames are larger - it looks weird. So yeah, maybe it was on purpose, but they should have enlarged only some parts of him so I think that it is a valid complaint.

On the Sorrow the down-scaling works a lot better.

[graeme27uk]

I just hope this is not how things are going to be... otherwise proxies may become the norm.

[Math Mathonwy]

I just hope this is not how things are going to be... otherwise proxies may become the norm.

I still actually really like the new plastics. I think that they are really finding their stride and hopefully this was just a minor hickup.

[Al Shut]

The problem with the Death Marshal is that everything on him is bigger. If he was just a giant of man, that'd be one thing, but his weapon is bigger, his coffin is bigger, his chains are thicker, his lock is bigger, his flames are larger - it looks weird.

Wouldn't a bigger Marshal with regular sized equipment look even more weirder, not to say silly?

[Math Mathonwy]

Wouldn't a bigger Marshal with regular sized equipment look even more weirder, not to say silly?

He needs big clothes and such but he doesn't a need bigger lock on his thicker chains. Those kinda take away the massiveness. And if they wanted him to have a bigger gun I would've liked for it to look custom-made, not just 3D-printed bigger. And the coffin could've been bigger but why are the planks that it has been made of bigger? Why not just use more planks? And so on and so forth.

If you alter the scale of a model you won't end up with it looking bigger, it just looks like it's bigger scale. As an example, using a 54mm model amongst 28mm models as a giant looks weird because everything is upscaled. For it to appear properly giant, there need to be things that show that it is the same scale but bigger.

[theJudge]

Even if the scale 'problems' were actually mistakes or not on thing is true. Wyrd are producing the nicest plastics by a company not called Games Workshop. That is a mean feat when you consider the size of the company and that they have been doing it for just over 1 year.

[Math Mathonwy]

Even if the scale 'problems' were actually mistakes or not on thing is true. Wyrd are producing the nicest plastics by a company not called Games Workshop. That is a mean feat when you consider the size of the company and that they have been doing it for just over 1 year.

I'm critiquing in the hopes that they will do even better in the future. If you look at Dark Debts box and the new boxes you can see that their development has been downright incredible. Who knows what they will be like in another year from now? All in all, I have always been extremely happy with how Wyrd listen to their fans.

I also take them on their word that the upscaled models weren't a mistake, I'm just critiquing in the hopes of drawing attention to the fact that, for it to look right, upscaling cannot, in my opinion, be done with a straight up percentage growth of everything in the mini equally but needs to be done carefully and from the start of the modelling.

[i_was_like_you]

Even if the scale 'problems' were actually mistakes or not on thing is true. Wyrd are producing the nicest plastics by a company not called Games Workshop. That is a mean feat when you consider the size of the company and that they have been doing it for just over 1 year.

Well, if Wyrd is not the only miniatures company using the same mold making company, then they cannot be the only ones making such nice plastic models. WWX's models supposedly come from the same facility, using the same materials. So, unless their sculpts are just garbage, then that's at least two companies completely on par with each other. Adding in that WWX is a brand new game, no previous editions with metal models and possible scale differences, I'd say they've hit the ground running, and have certainly hit their stride. The only thing left to see is their product on store shelves side by side with Malifaux.

[crossandswitch]

Still having problems with Brass Arachnid, and it is ridiculous to consider it a 30mm base. I remember having one issue with a Torakage who's feet are almost beyond the base limits, but the arachnid is unbelievable.

Can any Malifaux staff show something other than a digital render that shows a complete Brass Arachnid sitting correctly on it's 30mm base?