My depressing growing opinion of 5 turns

[i_was_like_you]

short comes off

I, I wanna party! *VonSchill rips off his tearaway uniform, leaving just the Partyboy bowtie, banana hammock, and boots* Party!!!

[ttsgosadow]

Suggested swarm list:

Von Schill (oathkeeper, short comes off, survivalist)

6ss pool

11 void wretches

Wretches should be able to bury/heal/taxi each other a bit.

So you're playing against this tonight, MythicFOX? I will try to come and look

[mythicFOX]

So you're playing against this tonight, MythicFOX? I will try to come and look

I'd love to but I'm not free until the weekend now. I'm more than happy to arrange a game against this list over the weekend though.

Any takers?

[Jross]

I am going to throw my opinion in here on the five turns the issue that I have had with it is not the number of turns but the chances of the game continuing so many games I had in beta where close and was either hoping it would continue with a long shot or relying on it ending...if a crew gets a few bad flips in the start or a slow start be nice if that extra turn would have a better chance to come up and save them and not just rely on the 5......a leader upgrade wave 2 that you could discard and many sack a soul stone for a elf up or better chance would be great

[Forar]

Ugh.........as long as he isn't using the accent from ConAir I suppose it could be worse.

I said. Put. The Bunny. Back. In the. Box.

[dgraz]

I said. Put. The Bunny. Back. In the. Box.

Ugh.........thanks.

On Rumors: I have a county job so I'm surrounded by local politicians and I learned long ago that believing and/or propagating rumors only ends up making you look like an ass when the truth comes out.

On Swarms: It's very easy to poke holes and complain, but without the batreps to back it up you're just blowing smoke. If someone believes there is a problem somewhere, then the onus is on them to put it to the test...........it's not on everyone else who has already tested it and found the problem lacking to prove that there isn't a problem.

On proper terrain and flagship games: I agree that every effort should be made to ensure a great relaunch of such a popular product........that said......I'm not part of the inner circle. Again, sitting on your computer, it's easy to envision an army of robot drones that just work on doing Malifaux to please you and fulfill all of your personal expectations..........unfortunately, that's just your unrealistic fantasy..........in reality, there are a few people in an office, working on multiple games and projects at the same time.......oh and they aren't robots....people get sick, family members have car accidents.......**** happens...it's called life and no one has the right to judge.

From their comments on the boards and such, these guys have been working 10-12 hour days, 6 days a week........I'm sure they did everything they could to have the best relaunch they could.

And yep, say whatever you want.........call me a fanboy or cheerleader........I don't care. I am a fanboy and a cheerleader. I almost rage-quit at the beginning of this and I'm under no illusions that there won't be problems exposed down the road.....but I'm a convert, this game is far superior to the original.........I've been playing the same 2-3 faces for over 3 years, M2E has already just about tripled that......that's enough for me to be a fanboy.

[Helm]

Now, I fully expect the usual suspects to leap in and defend people's time, business, priorities etc.

But the fact is, whatever else might have been going on, M2E *IS* the new flagship of the company, so it would be very strange to me that from a priority perspective that every single effort did not go into making every aspect of it perfect before giving the smallest amount of attention elsewhere.

Not sure that I could count as a "usual suspect", but i'll gladly jump in. You sum it up pretty well; time, business, priorities etc.

Gencon's a really big event, but to take what happens on the tables as some kind of "new Malifaux standard" is pretty strange. Demo games in a crowded hall are always going to be a bit rough-and-ready, with drop-in/drop out and some rules just not being prioritised as much as others. As for events for a game system where the rulebook wasn't available until that very weekend, they're clearly not meant to represent the highest point of tournament play. If the terrain on a table at such a big event contradicts the terrain as outlined in the rulebook, why would anyone assume that it's some kind of official stance rather than a matter of practical limitation?

If that is representative of the terrain that people are using, then its different than our reading of the rules and I guess I could see how a swarm could get gunned down by a ranged crew before it could engage every model on the table while also taking objectives.

Something I was thinking about touching on earlier; it's not necessarily a binary manner of Shooting vs Swarm. Something like Lilith with her 3" Melee range can tie up and even dispatch a whole lot of cheap minions with impunity while the rest of the Crew deals with objectives. The ability of swarms isn't necessarily tied to the amount of terrain on the tabletop.

[Justin]

It's also worth noting all official Malifaux tournaments at Gen Con were 1.5, not 2.0.

There were some 2.0 story encounters, but those are designed to be more beginner friendly. We didn't even require full painting for them.

So, no, the Gen Con tables really can't be called the new tournament standard of terrain for 2.0, as no 2.0 tournaments were even held on them.

@PierceSternum: That said, I think it's great that you want to try out the game with less terrain and see if it solves your issue. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Either way, I think it speaks well of you that you garnered new things from this discussion to try.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Justin

[Setoth]

(My perception is that its not a turn for ausplosions, he was already hostile 24/7)

But its super that people thank him it.

Whatever floats your boat.

Now, I fully expect the usual suspects to leap in and defend people's time, business, priorities etc.

See, this is where I feel obliged to speak up. I haven't played the beta rules at all. I simply haven't had the time and had to take a several-month long break due to work and grad school. So I don't have that much of an opinion either way about M2E, and with a flux of cash in my wallet from late night work hours that I'll finally have a chance to enjoy, it's not that hard for me to switch to a new hobby like Infinity, hypothetically speaking. I say this to make absolutely clear that I am by no means a "die hard" fan of M2E that you seem to think everyone who's voiced a contrary opinion to yours is.

With that in mind, snide comments like the ones I highlighted are asinine and remarkably disrespectful. I get that there was some frustration with you not being understood at first, and that there were some unfair comments directed at you initially. But your sweeping generalizations of anyone who disagrees with you as "fanboys" and "usual suspects" have done absolutely nothing to put you in a good light. This is made all the more irritating by the fact that you did not use one ounce, one iota, one modicum of actual support. No stories, no batreps, just one theory-faux example of a generic list and a concession about terrain usage that you turned into an attack.

Believe it or not, people can have contrary opinions to what you hold to be true. Especially at the release of a new edition of a war game. Dismissing the opinions of others as fanboys is not a cogent argument that will convince anyone to see things your way. Neither will refusing to support your arguments with anything besides "I said so."

If you want to show people there's an inherent imbalance problem that's being masked by the 5 turn limit, then play a six turn game. Or a seven turn game. Take pictures or do a write up. Try this several times, and get community support and actually *demonstrate* the imbalances. The Devs have shown tremendous willingness to take and implement community feedback. See the Hamelin erratas. Or wait, and if the imbalances you suggested are real then the community will find them. But this? Sweeping generalizations and a dismissive attitude towards the opinion of others? It's not constructive, it's just vindictive.

[Jonas Albrecht]

But this? Sweeping generalizations and a dismissive attitude towards the opinion of others? It's not constructive, it's just vindictive.

I started making a post expanding on this, but then I realized I was one of the bigger contributors to the vindictiveness. It's way too early in the morning for introspection, dammit.

[Swan]

Just wanted to add a comment on the tables and terrain. We had around 25 tables set up in the convention hall. 16 of these were for M2E Storylines and 1.5 qualifiers. I fully admit that the terrain density was light for the M2E environment, but for the storyline events that we ran it worked out quite well. Add in a prison for keep Karina in, or place a nothing beast in the center of the board, and things change a bit. One thing that they worked very well at was giving people the room to test out all of the models M2E abilities. While I expect the M2E tournament environment to play in a denser environment, terrain for storyline events is more flexible and conforms to a different standard then the tournament environment.

That being said, appreciate the work that Wyrd put in to make sure that we had these 2 dozen+ boards to play on all weekend, and don't try to interpret what was done in this environment at the gospel of what the terrain should look like.

[Mako]

They were impressive boards, especially given how many there were - they looked really nice when you walked up to them.

Wish I could build anything that nice!

[TekDekay]

I can see where more beefy models might be able to take out and control smaller minions around them but in the case of Nico isn't it really a matter of when that larger model activates as compared to when Nico activates to bring them back? I don't play ressers so I might be missing something here but the idea of just bringing back minions to spam drop tokens even after they have been culled by the beefy model near them doesn't really control them if the only thing they are there for is to control model movement and spam drop tokens to meet objectives does it?

Sorry to interject this into a discussion but, and this is just a thought mind you, but if you have a personal beef with the OP, please do the people who want to read this thread and possibly contribute a favor and send him a private mail about it and don't post off topic junk in a public discussion. Sorry, but the noise level is getting a little much.

[mythicFOX]

I think it would be best if we all just stay on topic and avoid commenting on each other, or commenting on people commenting on people.

[Setoth]

I think it would be best if we all just stay on topic and avoid commenting on each other, or commenting on people commenting on people.

But technically aren't you doing that right now?

(I keed, I keed. Message received)

[Omenbringer]

Without attacking any one (or there efforts) I can say that the boards at GenCon (whether story or tournament) were massively underwhelming. Sure the texturing was nice enough however none of them really popped or showcased the world and all of them were really light on terrain of any type. They didn't entice people to walk over and see what was going on or tell a story. Positioning in the event hall made it even more noticeable. To the West was Privateer Press with some really nice looking themed boards that just begged for people to look at them. To the South was another obscure minis game (can't remember the name right now) but they had a large collection of nicely cast and painted terrain that made me look every time I walked by. To the North West were the Mercs and Infinity tables that were amazingly well done (especially the Mercs ones done via Kit Bashed World Works kits).

Granted creating terrain is an intensive endeavor (I have built several including 6 themed boards for a local con) but well worth the effort to do right. Add in that historically Wyrd has featured some really nicely themed boards (The Bayou Board with Zoraida's Chicken hut from GenCon 2 years ago, the downtown area and the derailed train boards they used this year) and some great terraclips efforts (especially at the booth). I was most disappointed though in the use (again this year) of the derailed train board for the final tournament game. The board while a wonderful display piece and fine for demos is no where near featured or balanced enough for competitive play.

So why do I see this as a problem? Regardless of what the company intends a player (new or old) looking at boards provided for "official" events that the company is hosting will pattern their tables after what they saw. If they saw lightly featured boards then they will do the same, if they see highly featured boards then again they will mimic. With increases to ranges and a fairly targeted reduction in mobility for a lot of crews in the new edition, having to little terrain skews the game toward very specific builds that would be less optimal otherwise. As a player I really enjoy playing on thematic and featured tables especially if both my opponent and I have taken the time to paint our minis as well.

Again I am not attacking anyone or their efforts, GenCon event boards more than likely took a back seat (ok perhaps way back of the bus seat) to releasing M2E and the many other projects they had brewing for the con. I am confident that next years effort will be much better.

[Mister Shine]

Did you check out the much nicer Sabol boards in the Dealer room?

[Jonas Albrecht]

I just don't think the boards were all that sparse. People act like Malifaux should have these crowded, almost maze-like boards, but from day one we were told about two terrain features per square foot. How many boards failed in that requirement?

[PierceSternum]

@PierceSternum: That said, I think it's great that you want to try out the game with less terrain and see if it solves your issue. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Either way, I think it speaks well of you that you garnered new things from this discussion to try.

Its basically this. I have had a different reaction to the new game and want to feel similar to others. So, I am basically just trying to understand the things I dislike as I cross them and get past them.

There are plenty of things I like, though.

I will say its most difficult for me to get through anything when so many people here seem inclined to take anything negative as an attack. It honestly makes me not want to be here, give the company money or play the game.

I am not interested in writing up battle reports or, quite honestly, explaining much of anything to most people here. I stated what I disliked and why and was either told I was having a tantrum, preaching doom or the new mantra of "battle rep or it didn't happen". I simply wanted to know what other people were doing that might be different than me. I do not need anyone to play like me.

I will be playing with less terrain and see how it feels. I am waiting on rules and cards purchases to come from my local store though, but still have plenty of beta files to keep us going.

---------- Post added at 07:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:59 PM ----------

...

With that in mind, snide comments like the ones I highlighted are asinine and remarkably disrespectful.

Ok?

I get that there was some frustration with you not being understood at first, and that there were some unfair comments directed at you initially.

Ok.

But your sweeping generalizations of anyone who disagrees with you as "fanboys" and "usual suspects" have done absolutely nothing to put you in a good light.

Ok? But do you believe I was making a sweeping generalization of ANYONE that disagrees with me? OR was I perhaps talking about the people that ALWAYS disagree with me, thus USUAL suspects... Like Fetid, Dgraz and Ausplosions...

What I took to be not wanting to name names, you take as "sweeping generalization" of all disagreement which is simply not true.

I have learned quite a bit about what terrain people are using and intend to start doing the same when I get a chance.

This is made all the more irritating by the fact that you did not use one ounce, one iota, one modicum of actual support.

I am not really trying to convince you or anyone. Is that ok?

I am not dismissive of anyone other than the people on my growing ignore list that continually come after me whenever I express what I dislike.

Edited August 22, 2013 by PierceSternum

[Omenbringer]

Did you check out the much nicer Sabol boards in the Dealer room?

Conducted several demos on those boards both this year and last however even those would not be great to play on as neither were really balanced or extraordinarily playable. They looked good though.

I just don't think the boards were all that sparse. People act like Malifaux should have these crowded, almost maze-like boards, but from day one we were told about two terrain features per square foot. How many boards failed in that requirement?

Based on either editions recommended amounts of terrain those boards were all substantially below expectation. While they dont have to be maze like (such as infinity) all of them were outside the minimum requirements and definitely favored specific crew builds. Any of the so called sniper models (from either edition) could easily draw LOS to the majority of the board without really having to move into position.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Omenbringer

[Helm]

I can see where more beefy models might be able to take out and control smaller minions around them but in the case of Nico isn't it really a matter of when that larger model activates as compared to when Nico activates to bring them back? I don't play ressers so I might be missing something here but the idea of just bringing back minions to spam drop tokens even after they have been culled by the beefy model near them doesn't really control them if the only thing they are there for is to control model movement and spam drop tokens to meet objectives does it?

Theoryfaux Warning: While I've played a couple of games with beta Nico, I didn't use what could be described as a "swarm list" or face off against the tactics that I'd personally recommend.

However, it seems to me that it's not so much a matter of big models "culling" a swarm as it is them controlling the swarm.

I can take Lilith and Taelor with Nexus of Power (one of my few gripes about M2E game balance) and basically have a 15" stripe where enemy models can't Interact. If you try to hit Df7 Lilith with weak "swarm" models, you will get nowhere. If you do the same to Taelor, she can burn a SS for every 3 Wds she takes and get all those Wds or more back, near-guaranteed. They don't actually have to kill the little guys, so Nicodem won't necessarily have an infinite supply of corpses as fuel.

What if Nicodem drops more minions? They can't just spend AP and drop counters anywhere for the win. I suppose Crooked Men are a method of dropping Scheme markers within enemy Ml range (if Chunky McBigguy decides to kill them), but none of their friends can.

This kind of area Ml control can get really, really silly too. Taelor with Nexus, Candy and Pandora can cover a ridiculous area for about 25ish stones. It's a lot to pay, but it's powerful area denial and Nicodem would have to think hard about where to drop in reinforcements.

[Omenbringer]

Bigger/ powerful models can only really control swarms that are required to pool or cluster such as rats. Swarms that can ignore this are much more difficult to counter. This is often a problem with Guild Riflemen who tend to cluster and get shut down by a model engaging them in melee. Once a player realizes that they can be just as effective when spread out a bit it is much more difficult to shut more than one down by engagement.

In short not all swarms are required to cluster to be effective or potent. Those that can spread out and are mobile (such as Gremlins) can usually mitigate/ignore bigger more potent models.

[PierceSternum]

Nicodem's summons for me have never been about getting models for interactions, they have been for your models not interacting. My dogs are 4 soulstone paralyzes.

And when they come back as PZ or even Necropunks, they are minimum 2-hit to kill tarpits that further suck up AP.

On our boards, my horde could move largely unmolested (Don't care if I lose a couple on the way, they come back just fine) and at first opportunity double walk to engage nearest enemies. Don't care if they die, you are using AP and they are coming back.

My entire goal is and has been for a while, to make you use AP.

Occasionally I might have a high crow and for that, I might bring in a bigger summons, but for the most part, I am just tarpitting everything I can get near while a couple of models that might be free at the moment take care of other matters.

Now... A more open board could slow me up quite a bit. I am interested in seeing.

I have also never mirror matched.

Edited August 22, 2013 by PierceSternum

[Helm]

In short not all swarms are required to cluster to be effective or potent. Those that can spread out and are mobile (such as Gremlins) can usually mitigate/ignore bigger more potent models.

I'd certainly agree, but if the Strategy and Schemes require models to be in a certain place or drop markers in a certain place, then the swarm will have to cluster to be effective regardless of rules. The same goes if terrain forms some kind of choke point.

If it's some matter of ranged swarm models simply killing, I suppose they would be able to move and act freely. If the models have an objective to reach and Interact actions to perform, suddenly they have to be in a particular place, and that place could well be in a bubble of Ml7 pain. Or the place they have to move through to reach the objective could be guarded.

Nicodem's summons for me have never been about getting models for interactions, they have been for your models not interacting. My dogs are 4 soulstone paralyzes.

This concerns me much more; a tarpit isn't a tarpit if it gets tarpitted on the way to the tarpit point.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Helm
Saw PierceSternum's post

[Jonas Albrecht]

But you're also losing AP, both in the form of destroyed models and resurrecting. If someone manages to waste your summoned models before they activate you're actually at a negative AP balance.