My depressing growing opinion of 5 turns

[Joel]

Try void wretches. Cheap and incorporeal.

[i_was_like_you]

Try void wretches. Cheap and incorporeal.

Just spam Void Wretches? Might wanna go with the Warmahordes proxies that have been suggested, then.

[mythicFOX]

Anyone want to throw down Void Wretch spam against me on VASSAL in a couple of hours time then?

[i_was_like_you]

Anyone want to throw down Void Wretch spam against me on VASSAL in a couple of hours time then?

If this happens, is there a way to save the match so we can view it later?

[mythicFOX]

If it goes ahead I'll see what I can do.

[PierceSternum]

I'd strongly council you to avoid solving problems you think will exist before you've played a few games and experienced the issue first hand.

When I said "We can play with less terrain and see how things run",

I probably should have said "We can play with less terrain than we currently do and see how things run."

Then I would have been clearer.

I do not mind trying less terrain if that helps. I would like to be in the same place as others seem to be in regards to M2E.

[Ausplosions]

Huh. I've just been reading it in Gilbert Godfrey, myself.

Huh..

I hear myself as Winston Churchill.

Go figure.

[Mack.Martin]

This year the rumor was the terrain was built by Mack and Justin and provided for the events, which is very different from past years.

I was surprised to see the terrain as well and talk about it a bit on my blog.

I was neck deep in TTB work, I had nothing to do with table building. I'm not sure what that rumor is referring too, or what the implication would be.

I'd estimate that the table shown in that picture is on the light side. I can't really tell how light exactly without seeing the table in person. I'd play on the table, but I would certainly choose my crew with a bit more range in it.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Mack.Martin

[Ausplosions]

I was neck deep in TTB work, I had nothing to do with table building. I'm not sure what that rumor is referring too, or what the implication would be.

Mack! Haven't you heard?

You are now being held responsible for all the World's problems. From poverty, to the lack of cover on a Malifaux table.

I will begin editing all Wikipedia entries to reflect this.

[Helm]

Not only that, but any table that you set up from now on is automatically the Official Wyrd Stance on how a Malifaux table should be.

So, you know, be careful. My Kade/Candy/Terror Tots combination is going to be in real trouble if you decide not to use much cover next game.

[Sevorin]

Im going to go out on a limb here and guess that the terrain was a bit light due to the lack of it, not because that is the new way to play M2E.

That is really light terrain for those of us around my area, as well.

As far as the OP topic. I find myself in the opposite position than you. At first I wasn't happy with the change, specially as a Ressur player. Ressurs spend the first couple of turns building for the last turns, so it was a big change to my playstyle. That said, as I kept playing I realized the wisdom of dropping it to 5 turns. It forces hard choices, and gives you a lot less time to "play" around.

[Mister Shine]

In future demos Im going to refer to Resers making zombie hordes as "playing around"

[PierceSternum]

seems like a lot of hostility here for nix... How quickly people turn. (My perception is that its not a turn for ausplosions, he was already hostile 24/7)

But its super that people thank him it.

Whatever floats your boat.

I do not know anything about any rumors about Mack setting up terrain or whatever, but I do not think that its a stretch to expect that the official launch of M2E at the largest game convention of the year would be a showcase for how the game is setup and played.

If the tables are NOT representative of what the game has been built and balanced for, I think that's a big mistake.

And if thats what other playtesters have been using, then it is little wonder to me why opinions were so varied.

Now, I fully expect the usual suspects to leap in and defend people's time, business, priorities etc.

But the fact is, whatever else might have been going on, M2E *IS* the new flagship of the company, so it would be very strange to me that from a priority perspective that every single effort did not go into making every aspect of it perfect before giving the smallest amount of attention elsewhere.

For my part, I think less terrain will help alleviate swarm issues so hope to give that a whirl soon.

[DeleteAccount]

That or they probably thought it wasn't going to be such a big deal.

For my part, I think less terrain will help alleviate swarm issues so hope to give that a whirl soon.

And I swear this time I'm not being a dick, but please share a few abridged versions of battle reports where this is happening in your community, I still have no idea even about what faction is causing swarm problems, if it's all, if it's canine remains, if it's gremlins. What is it that's being spammed so much yet is being incredibly efficient and with what masters? How are they managing to get to the expected areas of the board that some schemes demand without any form of resistance?

[Sevorin]

but please share a few abridged versions of battle reports where this is happening in your community, I still have no idea even about what faction is causing swarm problems, if it's all, if it's canine remains, if it's gremlins.

This has been a lot of frustration for me. So many people are complaining, or stating things, and virtually none of them are posting battle reports to read to actually see how it has worked or come about. We all have our biases, which is why an accurately written batrep helps tremendously in bringing possible problems to light. Anything else is just noise, honestly.

[Jewomie]

I will admit I have only played against Ramos a couple of times, and I don't think I have EVER played against Nicodem or Levi 2.0 or otherwise.

Now, that said, I have played against Ramos a couple times in 2.0 and frankly, aside from dropping a couple extra spiders near the end to manage to score vp for reconnoiter, there was no swarm to speak of. There were just more things that Ramos needed to be doing in a few of the turns.

even with his ability to summon 3 spiders from a single source, I just don't see how it would be viable from an AP standpoint to worry about trying to swarm. especially with the draw backs of summoning more than a single spider at once. the SS or cards alone require too much of a buy in to reliably do it in more than a single turn, plus the wds they will start with lead to them meeting a rather quick end.

I understand the tactic, and I know it has it's uses in some strats and schemes, but I do think they are being given more credit then may be due.

just my opinion though, like I said, i'm not overly familiar with them.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Well, and add to that the vagaries of language, what definition of 'swarm' are we using?

I regularly use between 2 and 3 Belles to start with Seamus, is that a swarm? In 1.5 I would occasionally run 4 Canine Remains, was I swarming then? If I decide to take 4 low cost models and one mid to big cost model does that constitute a swarm? Also how is, if there is one, a shift to more lower cost models a bad thing when last edition the whole focus was on elites?

I'm honestly curious as to the answers of these questions.

[Joel]

I would suggest, as a rule of thumb, that any crew that has 9+ activations at 50ss is probably swarming - it would likely have had to buy many cheap models in order to get that many activations.

[Jewomie]

Well, and add to that the vagaries of language, what definition of 'swarm' are we using?

I regularly use between 2 and 3 Belles to start with Seamus, is that a swarm? In 1.5 I would occasionally run 4 Canine Remains, was I swarming then? If I decide to take 4 low cost models and one mid to big cost model does that constitute a swarm? Also how is, if there is one, a shift to more lower cost models a bad thing when last edition the whole focus was on elites?

I'm honestly curious as to the answers of these questions.

To use my own experience to answer your question (which may be a mistake...)

I would say that none of that constitutes a "swarm"

eh, I guess a 'swarm' would maybe end up being upwards of 10 of the same model. For instance, Ramose summons 9 spiders and they all go after the same objective/enemy. Hamlin starting the game with a dozen rats... same thing I guess.

This is a tad bit contradicting to what I just said, but I guess I don't really see it as a hard number more than a style of play. If you had 6 belles and they all "swarmed up" on my master to take her down, THAT is what I see as a swarm. that that is an acceptable style of play. sure you have the upper hand in the given situation, but you have also put most of your eggs in the same basket leaving your own stuff pretty open.

I guess i'm just not afraid of swarms... or I'm too naïve to see their danger. i'll let the internet decide.

[Sevorin]

My definition of a swarm is 10 or more models (not counting the Master). But that's me.

edit: I would add that I don't view swarms as an issue. I did find a swarm issue once, posted a BatRep, and the specific issue was addressed and changed.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Sevorin

[mythicFOX]

I think part of this, again, is that those concerned about the swarm haven't provided either a game report which helps define the issue or even an example 'swarm list', which would help put matters into context.

I'm still happy to go on VASSAL at the weekend and play against a swarm if someone wants to volunteer as an opponent and/or provide a list.

[Joel]

Suggested swarm list:

Von Schill (oathkeeper, short comes off, survivalist)

6ss pool

11 void wretches

Wretches should be able to bury/heal/taxi each other a bit.

[Mako]

Von Schill (oathkeeper, short comes off, survivalist)

Eep, that's not something I want to see Von Schill do!

[mythicFOX]

I suspect that's not something you want to see me do either. *wink*

[Joel]

Gotta love autocorrect