Future of Ours MalifauX experience

[Valcurdra]

The problem is I have wasted a ton of money (almost 200 models) and time on MalifauX 1.5 - so to quit a playing MalifauX is not a option to me - and as I stated previously I would prefer to still play 1.5 - but in my area it is imposible due to lack of players who prefer 1.5 over M2E.

I would estimate that in my gaming group there is more than 200 malifuax models sitting idle because too many players have lost faith in the 1.5 rules. M2E has addressed the vast majority of my groups concerns and frustrations.

[Guardian]

I don't really agree with the premise of power creep necessity in miniature war gaming.

IF you develop a robust and expandable system, introduction of new crews should be about implementing new flavors and themes (even new model designs) not more power.

I am the first who will buy a new crew/army/whatever based on the theme not power level.

This is a MINIATURE GAME, which presumes miniature assembly and painting, and I can't make myself paint something I don't enjoy the look of.

I pity the people who buy "new stuff" just because of their temporary power status in a game.

[Sliver Chocobo]

power creep isn't a necessity but it is difficult to avoid , even if it is just giving lesser models more options to work with it can have unintended side effects

[Forar]

It can also be a perception thing. Even if somehow perfectly balanced, adding a new or different option can be perceived as overpowered until someone figures out a counter for it. Being able to do something that no one else can (new movement trick, different combat style, etc) can feel unbalanced simply because it's like playing Chess and suddenly one of the rooks takes a 90 degree turn mid move and you're left pondering what the hell just happened.

Even knowing what new figures can do individually, if one hasn't spent the time and effort pondering out the combinations (or at least seen the mechanics in action), it can be tough to feel you're on an even footing, despite the reality being you are.

I liken it to the first time I played against a crew of Leveticus and Jack Daw (among other things). Even assuming the figures between us were balanced, it played in such an alien fashion to all the other crews I faced, it felt completely mismatched.

It can be part of why 'average' and even new player feedback is so important. Just because something is simple and straightforward to the designers and regular playtesters doesn't mean those mechanics aren't the next community uproar NPE in the making. It's also easy to overcompensate, in a desire for that new figure/system to be appealing, but unlike video games, errata are much harder to pull off here, so "release with a punch, reign it in a little over the next three patches" doesn't work nearly as well.

[fishtank]

When I finally get to play M2E - my time has been very limited lately so I haven't played in a while now - I hope I will like it.

Sadly I feel that the game's imagery has moved away from the feel which drew me into the game in the first place. I like almost none of the new art, and feel it is severely lacking in the Gothic-Horror feel which I felt Malifaux had. I am very disappointed in nearly all the art for my main faction - the Guild - and am even less happy about the complete overhaul that has been given to the Kin and Viktorias crews. This has had a very negative effect on my desire to play Malifaux at all.

I will be at Gencon. I will buy copies of the Rulebook for myself and for some of my local group. I will give the game itself a go.

Sadly, if the previews we have seen so far are any indication and there has not been a drastic improvement in the quality of the models from the plastics I bought from book 4, then I will probably be playing the game with my existing miniatures and spending my money elsewhere.

[zKoTTe]

The Old Edition will always have a speciel place in my heart, but i will of course play the new edition no matter what, i trust Wyrd to make a good final product

[The Hanged Man]

I am in kind of an interesting position, as I just started playing Malifaux in June. My local group is playing 1.5 until the rules officially come out, so that is what I have been learning, but I have also been trying to look at the 2E rules as well. On the whole, I like the changes I am seeing. I have been learning the game with a Lilith crew and enjoying it very much. Her 2E version looks fun, and I am definitely excited to try her soon.

However, last week I had my first game playing Colette and just fell in love. Yes she was incredibly complex for a very new player, but she was so much fun it didn't matter. Now, because of that experience, I find myself a little nervous about 2E, for the simple reason that her 2E version is an unknown quantity.

Can I wait for her and try other masters in the meantime? Of course. I am looking forward to getting a new Rasputina crew when she comes out in plastic and will learn 2E with her. But I will still be anxiously awaiting the return of Colette.

So, long story short, while i am very excited about 2E, I now have a better understanding of those who have fears about models not yet seen and regrets about model changes they don't like.

[Guardian]

People fear change.

[Csonti]

Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger; anger leads to hate; hate leads to suffering.

:Puppet:

[Linus Mcmold]

So suffering leads to change?

[Misery Rex]

:Puppet:

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The Force shall free me.

[caen]

I noticed various Persons statements that one of the reasons to introduce M2E is unbalanced of MalifauX 1.5.

When I ask if "Game Balans" is on the lists of priorities of Games Developers, Justin ansvered(Thanks for that Justin):

It is.

Sorry, but I have to ask - what was higher on the list of priorites or what goes wrong that MalifauX 1.5 becomes (in many Peoples opinion) unbalanced?

Edited July 19, 2013 by caen

[Soul Puppet]

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.

Through passion, I gain strength.

Through strength, I gain power.

Through power, I gain victory.

Through victory, my chains are broken.

The Force shall free me.

...soon to have a couple of extra lines...

Who's the leader of the club

That's made for you and me

M I C K E Y M O U S E

[Claymore65]

There are some pretty good reasons M1.5 was unbalanced. First of all, in my opinion, was the large amount of models that had extra AP. An extra AP is a huge benefit and this model will almost always be able to do more than one without it. Look at the Ronin for example. It has melee expert for only 5 SS. That makes it better than some of the other 5SS minions that lack that ability. Other models simply did much more than their cost allowed them too. The Neverborn twins had way too many special rules for their comparatively small cost, especially considering one could even summon the other. Neverborn in general had very fast cheap hard hitting units that some factions (such as Guild) often had trouble fighting it. The other problems included masters with Negative Play Experiences (NPE). Fighting the original Hamelin was extremely demoralizing and frustrating. Nearly endless rat activations and preventing most attacks from going through on a Master who is already very difficult to kill in the first place is not fun to fight. They made him a lot better to fight with the update. Still, in M1.5 many models are simply useless. The Malifaux Child is now an excellent totem for any outcast army, something that sounds insane in M1.5. The rules system has been cleaned up and looking up special rules is easier as well. You no longer have situations like Lifer which the ability is only described on one model's card (and not in the main Rulebook) despite the many models that have the ability. The abilities of many masters and models has seen some simplification (Leveticus has normal card drawing/discarding etc.) and the upgrades system allows new players to have an easy start on their chosen master before expanding their abilities. Overall, I think the edition change is solid.

[Dorian]

Play M2E but regret the loss of “Old Feeling”of Malifaux 1.5

I just got into playing again and after 1 game in store played a bunch with some friends.

I regret the change in art style as I really liked the almost cartoonishness or previous books compared to the 50 shades of brown in the more recent stuff. I think a lot of characterization is lost with some characters, Nino being particularly glaring in my mind. He was the hotshot youngin' sniper and now he looks like something out of CoD 1912 / Bioshock.

I think the streamlining & stripping down of models rules / spells is a good business decision, I know people have stated complexity as a barrier to entry but I will miss some of those spells that while only useful 1:10 games were really fun to use when they worked.

The game mechanics still feel like malifaux and there have been many improvements. My main issue that I regret is the loss of character from books 1 & 2. I always introduced Seamus as a nutjob walks into a house of ill repute, slaughters the once callgirls and resurrects them zombie hooker nightmare style. Which usually got a lot of laughs.

I guess you could say for me the soul of the game seems to be moving more nitty gritty grimdark and less from the characterful sillyness which is one of the things that attracted me to the game. But this change is evident when you look at the books in order, the art style just changes particularly noticeable in book 3.

A game has to grow & evolve, and as I state with any rule changes in hockey (I'm a ref) I think this is the direction wyrd (or USA Hockey ) has decided to take the game and I will continue to support is as nothing has pushed me that far yet\ as to leave it.

That said I'm buying the crap out of the V1 models but I like metal

[Omenbringer]

Granted this wont change your mind (as its already made up) however...

There are some pretty good reasons M1.5 was unbalanced. First of all, in my opinion, was the large amount of models that had extra AP. An extra AP is a huge benefit and this model will almost always be able to do more than one without it. Look at the Ronin for example. It has melee expert for only 5 SS. That makes it better than some of the other 5SS minions that lack that ability.

Specific AP is not necessarily an unbalancing feature of Classic. It was only a boon if you could actually capitalize from it. Using your example the Ronin or Punk Zombie's could use the specific AP gained from Melee Expert to conduct melee strikes only, it couldn't be used for Charging or moving after a charge or focusing a strike. The most useful extra AP abilities was Fast which generated general AP and that was a pretty Rare ability(along with Casting Expert and Ranged Expert).

Other models simply did much more than their cost allowed them too. The Neverborn twins had way too many special rules for their comparatively small cost, especially considering one could even summon the other.

They were a total of 14 SS for all those Rules (or in game terms almost half of your crew). And well summoning a Lelu wasn't exactly cheap or easy. To do it your Lilitu (or a friendly Nephilim within 6" of her) had to sacrifice 2 Blood Counters (something she is very good at generating) and still sacrifice a friendly Nephilim model (again within 6" of the Lilitu) on top of hitting both a 12+ (without Use SS only 16% of the deck can succeed) and using an AP. Even with all this there was still a Rare 2 limit.

The other problems included masters with Negative Play Experiences (NPE). Fighting the original Hamelin was extremely demoralizing and frustrating. Nearly endless rat activations and preventing most attacks from going through on a Master who is already very difficult to kill in the first place is not fun to fight. They made him a lot better to fight with the update.

This doesn't really have any relevance now that the errata has been released and these things are no longer true.

It remains to be seen what the new NPE are going to be in M2E. As time goes on these things will undoubtedly show up again (hell it was almost 4 years before Som'er Teeth Jones was called a NPE). I am sure the play testers for each release (not just confined to Malifaux either but any TTG) honestly believed that the models would never be viewed as such.

Still, in M1.5 many models are simply useless.

This is still true, not every crew is going to view every model they have access to as a stellar choice even with the possibility of upgrades. This will increase as more and more "optimal" choices are released.

You no longer have situations like Lifer which the ability is only described on one model's card (and not in the main Rulebook) despite the many models that have the ability.

Sure about that? Lifer was defined under the book entries for each of the handful of models (and there were not that many) that possessed it.

As I said none of this will change your mind though as it is already made up.

I expect Malifaux 2E to become a great game (the community will drive these things as it has from the start) however I am also 100% sure that it is not immune to Errata's, Faq's, Clarifications and balance issues. These things will occur as more models are released, new interactions/ combinations are introduced and more hands get in the game.

With that said I guess I'll finally cast my vote in the poll.

[Lewkas]

I love M2E. Just played a 1.5 tournament after playtesting for months I now realise how much more streamlined the new rule set is.

[DeleteAccount]

Omenbringer, I can agree you loved the game, but please, don't sugarcoat it's flaws. Melee expert was HUGE, not a simple novelty, and the punk who did NOT have it sucked quite a bit because "he was too slow and never survived to flurry", same reason nobody gave a poop about Teddy or the ice golem, cause they didn't have the extra AP and god forbid if you were 7 stones or more and didn't pack an extra AP or some amazing rules, hell, the illuminated were universally despised for not having an extra AP and they were a 6 stone model.

Also, there was a reason Lelu and Lilitu were in almost every competitive Neverborn list, not much else is needed to mention about that.

[Omenbringer]

Omenbringer, I can agree you loved the game, but please, don't sugarcoat it's flaws.

I wasn't sugar coating anything more pointing out deficiencies in the argument.

The two editions are very different, neither one is anywhere near perfect. I have posted my share (ok maybe more than my share) of complaints about the old system since joining the community (a search for Hamelin or the infinite skeeter will demonstrate this). My opinion is that some modest tweaking and model re-balancing was all that was really needed to address the majority of complaints for what is now called the Classic edition.

Now M2E may become an improvement over time however acting as if M2E is not going to suffer from any flaws or need revision is the worst kind of optimism. Even now there are requests for clarifications to things that were supposed to have already been streamlined and/ or clarified in the new edition. There are even things that were pretty often complained about in the old system that are still present in the new (and in a lot of cases even more viable).

I get the excitement however I also see that once the shininess has worn off the community will find new things that are flawed with the new system and need to be fixed. Just in the time I have played Malifaux I have seen the pattern repeat with every release and play test.

As I have said before Wyrd has made the decision for a reset, it is their game I just play it. They have substantially more skin in the fight than I do. I will continue to support both versions until such a time as I feel that M2E is substantially better than Classic. You feel as if it is there currently I disagree. Neithers opinion is any more correct than the others.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Omenbringer

[Manic Mouse]

I wasn't sugar coating anything more pointing out deficiencies in the argument.

The two editions are very different, neither one is anywhere near perfect. I have posted my share (ok maybe more than my share) of complaints about the old system since joining the community (a search for Hamelin or the infinite skeeter will demonstrate this). My opinion is that some modest tweaking and model re-balancing was all that was really needed to address the majority of complaints for what is now called the Classic edition.

Now M2E may become an improvement over time however acting as if M2E is not going to suffer from any flaws or need revision is the worst kind of optimism. Even now there are requests for clarifications to things that were supposed to have already been streamlined and/ or clarified in the new edition. There are even things that were pretty often complained about in the old system that are still present in the new (and in a lot of cases even more viable).

I get the excitement however I also see that once the shininess has worn off the community will find new things that are flawed with the new system and need to be fixed. Just in the time I have played Malifaux I have seen the pattern repeat with every release and play test.

As I have said before Wyrd has made the decision for a reset, it is their game I just play it. They have substantially more skin in the fight than I do. I will continue to support both versions until such a time as I feel that M2E is substantially better than Classic. You feel as if it is there currently I disagree. Neithers opinion is any more correct than the others.

I have to agree. Some people act as if 1.5 was an unplayable mess while 2.0 some mythical gaming nirvana. Claiming no unbalance issues when it took YEARS for certain things to come to light in 1.5 is rather short sighted.

And I also agree about model tweaks with the new core rules being what many people would have liked to see. I never played any miniature games before Malifaux, but when I saw what crews like Hoffman, Dreamer and Leveticus could do I had to play the game. I fell in love with the complex, crazy masters that took real skill to play but with which you could do real skilful things. That seems to have been lost with 2.0, I'll not be looking forward to new releases like Willie or the rail golem because those interesting models don't exist in 2.0.

People are more than entitled to like, or even prefer 2.0, but one thing I don't understand is how people see a narrowing of the skill gap as a good thing. One person earlier in the thread said that he had a friend who played Hoffman but never really knew how to play him and would therefore lose, that he likes that in 2.0 you don't have to know how to play master to be competitive and said friend was beating him and much as he beat the friend. To me this sounds like complaining that in a fighting game people who know combos and reversals beat those who button mash, and you want a game where a button masher has a good chance of winning. Might make the game less of a "NPE" for those that are bad at it or can't be bothered putting in any effort, but that's just pandering to the worst aspects of humanity - laziness and pride. Doesn't make the game better, in my opinion it makes the game a lot worse. People will harp on about "tactical" options and complexity, but when the game is designed so everything you do is generally viable in all situations it makes those decisions much less important. I thought it was a real strength of Malifaux that skill played such a large role, saddens me to read about very skilled players being beaten by less skilled players and that this is somehow a good thing in 2.0. If you can pick up a crew having never played the game before and beat an experienced player, as people are saying has happened in 2.0 and is a strength, the game isn't deep because skill nor experience play a pivotal roll in determining the winner, even if they may influence it. These changes may get more people playing the game, but that isn't the same thing as making the game better.

[Claymore65]

I'm not saying M2E is perfect or anything, I'm just saying some of the flaws I found with M1.5 have been fixed (in my opinion) by M2E. I disagree with some of the complexity of M1.5. My buddy shouldn't have failed at Hoffman because he didn't know he was supposed to cast protect in a chain, he should lose because his positioning was bad or he made bad tactical mistakes. I like complexity (I play Levi a lot) but the combos shouldn't be too challenging to figure out. You should be able to figure out the basics of a character just from reading the card, not reading online. To use a fighting game analogy, you shouldn't have to go to Dustloop or something like that to figure out some (basic) combos, you should be able to learn the basics of a character after spending a little while in the training mode (practice games) and the command list (the card). I agree with the existence of crazy cool combos (the protect chain among them) but they shouldn't be required to play a character effectively. Just so we're clear, I like M1.5. If I didn't, I wouldn't have played it. I just feel that M2E has some improvements that I really like. I like that some older models are now much more useful than they were (Steampunk Abominations, Malifaux Child etc.). I'm not saying each model should be equally useful with each crew, and I'm not saying some models won't be stronger than others. What I am saying is that there shouldn't be models without a use. I like M2E more, but it doesn't mean I hate M1.5.

[Mister Shine]

*Shine says what Claymore said, but tosses in a joke or two, probably about butts*

[caen]

Excelent posts Gentelmen - they are really helpfull in ansvering what is unbalanced in v1.5.

But in this moment, in moment of transition between edition, when we can look upon v1.5 as a dead game (it will be dead in half a year) what I find important is to answer questions like that:

Why v1.5 becomes unbalanced?

What factors/proces contribute to unbalancing wargames?

What Game Designers, Player, Beta Testers can do to avoid "power creep" - becouse as we had allready agreed on example of v1.5, it is in loong run not good for the game?

If we grab second book for M2E and we notice models with excelent rules and SS cost noticable to low we should say "excelent" or we should say - "M2E is heading in a wrong direction and repeat mistakes from previous edition"?

What do You think?

Edited July 20, 2013 by caen

[Mister Shine]

I think power creep really only happened in book 2 and the devs saw that reaction and toned things down for the new masters in book 4 as well as changing some of the more negative playstyles (Hamelin&Dreamer)

I've always been very impressed with Wyrd listening to its players and I dont think they'll be ignoring lessons learned from the first edition of the game

[DeleteAccount]

I think power creep really only happened in book 2 and the devs saw that reaction and toned things down for the new masters in book 4 as well as changing some of the more negative playstyles (Hamelin&Dreamer)

I've always been very impressed with Wyrd listening to its players and I dont think they'll be ignoring lessons learned from the first edition of the game

Pretty much this.

Book 1 was mostly ok with Pandora being the big eyebrow raiser and I heard that initially Somer was pretty crazy. Masters were all over the place, but minions were a bit closer. Book 2 though was the kaboom. Why did the power creep happen? Inexperience, plain and simple, the team was full of ideas and they wanted to implement them in all their crazy glory. I really like book 2, but it's undeniable that it was a kick to the balance curve. Book 3 was incredibly tame in pretty much all of it's toys and then came book 4 which was a pretty spot on book, though it's power level was closer to book 2 than to book 1 and 3 because most of book 1 and a lot of 3 was considered plain crap.

When I insist so much about M1.5s flaws it's that M2 has made me notice that it isn't about "oh M1, I wuv you with your flaws!" anymore, now I can play a very similar iteration that seems to have ironed out a lot of the more important flaws. Of course, this isn't given, for all I know, maybe a bajillion NPE combos went through us. But I do feel that the public beta did give a wide enough pool of people kicking stuff to notice most of the scary, also, the makers of the rules are now operating more on benchmarks to try and level everything out as much as possible. That it's the same guys during the whole process on a short frame of time also normalizes everything quite a bit. Because making book 3 must have been hell simply because you have 2 books with very different power levels and a couple of NPE sprinkled in the middle, how do you tackle that?

As for how to avoid power creep, warmachine has done a pretty good job at that. The problem casters are still those that came out too powerful during the edition transition for the most part and the grand majority of the new stuff is mostly on the "useful" spectrum. There are of course outliers like the Stormwall and a lot of models that are considered a bit meh, but seeing the volume of release and that it can still keep a pretty good level of balance is still amazing in my eyes.

As long as wyrd is VERY clear about what is it's benchmarks, the possibility of getting a new "book 2" is a lot lower simply because they now have experience in this and know the pitfalls, also, the simplification of non upgrade users makes the "need" to fill a minions card chock full of stuff or an enforcer or even a henchmen a lot less of a given, so more focused rules mean less variables to account for and the upgrade system will always let them release some later for stuff that is a bit bellow the curve and so on. When we'll we know something is rotten in denmark? When everything released starts getting an extra AP, because with the changes now it's a very rare commodity and something that I expect will be given quite rarely.

---------- Post added at 04:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:07 AM ----------

I have to agree. Some people act as if 1.5 was an unplayable mess while 2.0 some mythical gaming nirvana. Claiming no unbalance issues when it took YEARS for certain things to come to light in 1.5 is rather short sighted.

And I also agree about model tweaks with the new core rules being what many people would have liked to see. I never played any miniature games before Malifaux, but when I saw what crews like Hoffman, Dreamer and Leveticus could do I had to play the game. I fell in love with the complex, crazy masters that took real skill to play but with which you could do real skilful things. That seems to have been lost with 2.0, I'll not be looking forward to new releases like Willie or the rail golem because those interesting models don't exist in 2.0.

People are more than entitled to like, or even prefer 2.0, but one thing I don't understand is how people see a narrowing of the skill gap as a good thing. One person earlier in the thread said that he had a friend who played Hoffman but never really knew how to play him and would therefore lose, that he likes that in 2.0 you don't have to know how to play master to be competitive and said friend was beating him and much as he beat the friend. To me this sounds like complaining that in a fighting game people who know combos and reversals beat those who button mash, and you want a game where a button masher has a good chance of winning. Might make the game less of a "NPE" for those that are bad at it or can't be bothered putting in any effort, but that's just pandering to the worst aspects of humanity - laziness and pride. Doesn't make the game better, in my opinion it makes the game a lot worse. People will harp on about "tactical" options and complexity, but when the game is designed so everything you do is generally viable in all situations it makes those decisions much less important. I thought it was a real strength of Malifaux that skill played such a large role, saddens me to read about very skilled players being beaten by less skilled players and that this is somehow a good thing in 2.0. If you can pick up a crew having never played the game before and beat an experienced player, as people are saying has happened in 2.0 and is a strength, the game isn't deep because skill nor experience play a pivotal roll in determining the winner, even if they may influence it. These changes may get more people playing the game, but that isn't the same thing as making the game better.

What you call "narrowing of the skill gap" I call "rebalancing and cutting the useless complexity". In a fighting game, getting a long chain combo while managing to use our special to do a lift off and get a new chain going, that is skill. But doing a protect chain with Hoffman is something that isn't really intuitive, it's just reading the rules a certain way, posting it on the internet and BAM! everybody can use the hoffchain. The dreamer drop and retreat? internet and EVERYBODY can do it, it wasn't a game of skill, it was a game of checking the combo that was the awesome and getting how it was done, the difference was that sometimes it was pretty much hell to even know the combo existed and I'd say quite a few times those weren't intended, reason why they were NPE, because they were hell to protect from, Dreamer was cuddled because he was a nightmare to play against, noob or veteran, not to "constraint the skill gap".

Basically, your SF analogy doesn't make sense here because I don't need twitch mechanics, constant practice and perfect timing to destroy somebody when playing with Pandora or Kirai M1 for example, you just need to know their tricks and not do too much crazy stuff. My games in M2 have been closer, not because I believe "they dumbed down the game and now my opponents get an unfair advantage" but because I do feel the masters are closer, I can now do a lot of cool stuff with Nicodem and emulate some of the tricks of Kirai, but never in such a way that I'm simply dominating the situation and making you dance like a puppet because I happen to be using a high tier master vs your middle tier.

An awesome tier 3 player will destroy a normal guy playing a tier 1 in a good fighting game. But in malifaux, a competent tier 1 could make the life of a tier 3 veteran hell and it doesn't require that much effort depending on what tier 1 is on the table.